Rise of right wingism in Europe, and even the UK too.
-
Mike Gaskey wrote:
we all yearn for the return of Jimmy Carter
Isn't it conceivable that there might be a middle ground? Reagan, for instance, or Bush the First. I klnow they were too left-wing for Stan but for you, too?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Anymore, I'll be perfectly happy to have any ol' American. Especially one who understands why there should be limits and boundaries. And one who acknowledged the existence and rights of those who didn't vote for him would be nice too. Hell, after this maniac, I'd even be fat dumb and happy with another Clinton (just not the Clinton that ran last go-round).
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain "Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy' until you can find a rock." - Mark Twain "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx
-
fat_boy wrote:
If it wasnt for Germanys history, I am sure the far right would be more prevelant there, and I am sure generally that if it wasnt for GErmanys history the far right would be more prevelant everywhere.
Which is unfortunate and has always bothered me. I guess most people want big complicated things boiled down to a bare minimum for them to base an opinion on. i.e. Nazi = right wing, racism, swastika, toothbrush mustache. Nazi Germany was every bit leftist as it was right wing. They didn't fit right or left actually. They themselves pointed that out, describing themselves as the "third way", being anti-Marxist and anti-capitalist. Nationalistic (right) Socialist (left) Dictatorial (left) Not capitalist (right) nor communist (left) Government controlled media (left) Extensive welfare (left) Institutional (left) racism (right) Insuring a minimal living standard for citizens (left) Compulsory membership in Hitler Youth Org (leftish) The VW Bug (decidedly left ;P ) [the hitlarious thing is that it was designed to be a vehicle of war] Though it was every bit as left as it was right, and actually primarily left wing internally, the worst of it's externalized philosophies were right wing. Right wing ideology, left wing application. But the right wing got the bad and unjust rap along with the toothbrush mustache. "How fortunate for governments that the people they govern don't think." -- Adolph Hitler
fat_boy wrote:
Tolerance is one thing, being swamped (more than 50% of Rotterdam is Morocan) is another.
One mans Mexican is another mans Morocan.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
That's why the traditional you're a leftie or a rightie breaks down relatively quickly. Only the truly simplistic try to boil all of human politics into a one-dimensional scale. Until and unless one takes into account whether one leans towards an powerful state or towards personal freedom as well as looking at the traditional left-right breakdown, square pegs and round holes get jumbled together as if they belonged together. I both agree with your conclusion and disagree with some of your premises. Hitler was anti-Lenin because the right is strongly capitalistic - and capitalism can serve state socialism just as easily as it does the free market. But he was just as opposed to personal freedom as the most dogmatic Marxist. Barry Goldwater was just as strongly capitalistic as Hitler, but as much in favor of personal freedom as JFK. We begin to see a recognition of this here in this country as people begin to talk about small-government Republicans and big government Republicans. (Ben Nelson would be an example of a small government Democrat, but so far that term hasn't gained much currency.) edit The left has indeed been able to hang the anti-personal freedom moniker on the right because of Hitler while convincing everyone that the USSR was simply a temporary aberation in the true socialist path to glory.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
modified on Monday, June 8, 2009 11:52 AM
-
Anymore, I'll be perfectly happy to have any ol' American. Especially one who understands why there should be limits and boundaries. And one who acknowledged the existence and rights of those who didn't vote for him would be nice too. Hell, after this maniac, I'd even be fat dumb and happy with another Clinton (just not the Clinton that ran last go-round).
"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it's time to pause and reflect." - Mark Twain "Diplomacy is the art of saying 'nice doggy' until you can find a rock." - Mark Twain "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read." - Groucho Marx
BoneSoft wrote:
I'd even be fat dumb and happy with another Clinton
I almost threw him into the mix with Reagan, but decided Mike might have apoplexy. Whatever his failings (and there were many), he was middle of the road in many ways - and far more serious about financial responsibility than Bush or Obama.
BoneSoft wrote:
just not the Clinton that ran last go-round
I was rooting for her to win the nomination. She's got more sense than Obama and more brains that McCain. And bigger balls than her husband, which is saying something. Had she run against McCain, I might have actually voted for her.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
-
BoneSoft wrote:
I'd even be fat dumb and happy with another Clinton
I almost threw him into the mix with Reagan, but decided Mike might have apoplexy. Whatever his failings (and there were many), he was middle of the road in many ways - and far more serious about financial responsibility than Bush or Obama.
BoneSoft wrote:
just not the Clinton that ran last go-round
I was rooting for her to win the nomination. She's got more sense than Obama and more brains that McCain. And bigger balls than her husband, which is saying something. Had she run against McCain, I might have actually voted for her.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
-
Mike Gaskey wrote:
we all yearn for the return of Jimmy Carter
Isn't it conceivable that there might be a middle ground? Reagan, for instance, or Bush the First. I klnow they were too left-wing for Stan but for you, too?
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
a middle ground? Reagan, for instance, or Bush the First
Reagan is the ideal from my perspective. A civilian hero. Reasons: essentially a conservative but most importantly he spoke directly to the people with honesty and integrity. Bush #1 not so much, but I couldn't explain why.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
-
Oakman wrote:
a middle ground? Reagan, for instance, or Bush the First
Reagan is the ideal from my perspective. A civilian hero. Reasons: essentially a conservative but most importantly he spoke directly to the people with honesty and integrity. Bush #1 not so much, but I couldn't explain why.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
honesty and integrity
Its what we need and so seldom get. And you're right he spoke directly to the people in a way they understood and trusted.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Bush #1 not so much, but I couldn't explain why.
He wasn't the communicator that Reagan was, maybe? On the other hand, as a war president he was superb. His orchestrating of the buildup to the first Gulf war was nothing short of brilliant.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
-
Mike Gaskey wrote:
honesty and integrity
Its what we need and so seldom get. And you're right he spoke directly to the people in a way they understood and trusted.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
Bush #1 not so much, but I couldn't explain why.
He wasn't the communicator that Reagan was, maybe? On the other hand, as a war president he was superb. His orchestrating of the buildup to the first Gulf war was nothing short of brilliant.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Oakman wrote:
He wasn't the communicator that Reagan was, maybe?
You may be right, I do agree with your "war president" point.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
-
Goodness! I think I even "predicted" the "rise of right wingism in Europe" in this very forum a couple of years ago. 'Twasn't a difficult call.
No you didn't, liar.
-
No you didn't, liar.
73Zeppelin wrote:
No you didn't, liar.
He would have linked it, I imagine. he's so good at linking, after all.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
-
fat_boy wrote:
If it wasnt for Germanys history, I am sure the far right would be more prevelant there, and I am sure generally that if it wasnt for GErmanys history the far right would be more prevelant everywhere.
Which is unfortunate and has always bothered me. I guess most people want big complicated things boiled down to a bare minimum for them to base an opinion on. i.e. Nazi = right wing, racism, swastika, toothbrush mustache. Nazi Germany was every bit leftist as it was right wing. They didn't fit right or left actually. They themselves pointed that out, describing themselves as the "third way", being anti-Marxist and anti-capitalist. Nationalistic (right) Socialist (left) Dictatorial (left) Not capitalist (right) nor communist (left) Government controlled media (left) Extensive welfare (left) Institutional (left) racism (right) Insuring a minimal living standard for citizens (left) Compulsory membership in Hitler Youth Org (leftish) The VW Bug (decidedly left ;P ) [the hitlarious thing is that it was designed to be a vehicle of war] Though it was every bit as left as it was right, and actually primarily left wing internally, the worst of it's externalized philosophies were right wing. Right wing ideology, left wing application. But the right wing got the bad and unjust rap along with the toothbrush mustache. "How fortunate for governments that the people they govern don't think." -- Adolph Hitler
fat_boy wrote:
Tolerance is one thing, being swamped (more than 50% of Rotterdam is Morocan) is another.
One mans Mexican is another mans Morocan.
Visit BoneSoft.com for code generation tools (XML & XSD -> C#, VB, etc...) and some free developer tools as well.
The modern political spectrum (left to right)exists for one purpose - collectivist fear mongering. The further you get away from them (on the spectrum they created, of course) the closer you get to Hitler. Anyone they don't like finds themselves standing in a big box labeled 'Right Wing Extremist' along side a wax statue of Hitler. Libertarians do the same thing, of course, but for slightly different reasons. Anyone who disagres with Oakman or Craig or Grhame, for example, that perhaps social decorum should be allowed to restrict people from having orgies in the public park is enough to get you put into their 'sharia law' box along side a wax statue of bin Ladin. American conservatives exist no where on any such spectrum. The only true political spectrum is between absolute centralized control of a society and absolute anarchy. Liberals want to force everyone to live on the control side, while libertarians want to force everyone to live towards the side of anarchy. American Conservatives simply believe that social control should be distributed among the states and the people, as it was originally intended by our founders, in order to maximize the opportunity the average person has to define the point on that spectrum they are personnaly most comfortable with.
Chaining ourselves to the moral high ground does not make us good guys. Aside from making us easy targets, it merely makes us idiotic prisoners of our own self loathing.
-
73Zeppelin wrote:
No you didn't, liar.
He would have linked it, I imagine. he's so good at linking, after all.
Jon Smith & Wesson: The original point and click interface Both democrats and republicans are playing for the same team and it's not us. - Chris Austin
Exactly.