Mubarak says ... [modified]
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Bassam Saoud wrote:
But does this give me the right to deprive muslims their right in Lebanon because there aint another christian country in the ME?
Of course not. But you didn't answer my questions. Isn't Saudi Arabia recognized as an Arab state, and as a Muslim state and if so, does that mean that it deprives all Christians, Jews and non-Arabs of their rights? Is it only Jews that cannot be reognized as having a state?
Jon Soap Box 1.0: the first, the original, reborn troll-less
Saudi Arabia deprives muslims from their own right. It is the only country in the world that doesnt even hold elections. I am not sure where you are going with this.
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Saudi Arabia deprives muslims from their own right. It is the only country in the world that doesnt even hold elections. I am not sure where you are going with this.
Bassam Saoud wrote:
I am not sure where you are going with this.
Me, either. Other than my comment about the irony of one semite racially discriminating against another. Sometimes I ask questions because I don't know the answer. ;)
Jon Soap Box 1.0: the first, the original, reborn troll-less
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Well, for one thing, the ultimate source is a Syrian state controlled paper, which ultimately makes it biased beyond anything against both Israel and Egypt (yes, inter-Arab politics). For another, Netenyahu's statement wasn't really much of a peace offering. Settlements will stay (and grow), refugee issue not resolved, East Jerusalem, the partitioning wall etc. The only thing he did was inch forward on the "we'll call it Palestine". Not much of a chance of peace going forward with what he's offering. Expected really from his track record.
If the post was helpful, please vote! Current activities: Book: Devils by Fyodor Dostoyevsky Project: Hospital Automation, final stage Learning: Image analysis, LINQ Now and forever, defiant to the end. What is Multiple Sclerosis[^]?
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Well, for one thing, the ultimate source is a Syrian state controlled paper
ok, I interpret that as saying, "biased against Israel" - am I correct??
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Settlements will stay (and grow)
This is an issue I really really do not understand. As much as I have been able to infer, Israelis have built / are builing on land the Palestinians consider to be theirs. But by the same token how do Palestinians have any greater claim on the land then does Israel, because isn't this land that Israel won during a war that was defensive and not offensive? I'm sure your realize that I'm far removed from that part of the world and have limited knowledge but this does reflect my understanding.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
refugee issue not resolved
This one I think I understand, but please correct me if you think I'm wrong. My understanding is that there are a (huge) number of Palestinians that believe they have a claim on lands within what the majority of the rest of the world considers to be Israel plus land that is in greater dispute (ie., Israeli settlements). The desire is to repatriot all ceding land in both categories to the Palestinians. That would be sheer folly n the part of Israel as it gaurantees their nation be lost. Why is that, the idea of repatrioting, an Israeli problem? Why can't these people be resettled in land currently occupied and controlled by Palestinians??
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
East Jerusalem
This I really do not understand, at all. If I'm correct (and again, please correct me) the idea is to cede half of the city to Palestinians - sort of like America ceding half of Washington DC to Iran or North Korea, an invitation to suicide.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Not much of a chance of peace going forward with what he's offering.
Why? Where is any sort of peace proposal from the Palestinians? What I heard sounded to me like an offer, a proposal that would require a counter offer from a legitimate negotiator.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
the partitioning wall etc
Sorry I skipped this earlier. The wall has saved Isareli lives and would not have been built had there not be
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Bassam Saoud wrote:
I am not sure where you are going with this.
Me, either. Other than my comment about the irony of one semite racially discriminating against another. Sometimes I ask questions because I don't know the answer. ;)
Jon Soap Box 1.0: the first, the original, reborn troll-less
I find it very discriminating when a basic human right law is not repsected in any given country whether Saudi Arabia or israel or whatever. All people have the right to choose their destiny. Look at the United States, you have a Federal System where each state decides its own laws* It is a wonderful system , peak of democracy in my opinion. I hope one day we as lebanese make use of this system to solve our differences * Give or take
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Its a minority question Oakman. I am also a christian minority in the middleeast and I do know the meaning to be secured in a country that reflects my ideals. But does this give me the right to deprive muslims their right in Lebanon because there aint another christian country in the ME?
Bassam Saoud wrote:
I am also a christian minority in the middleeast and I do know the meaning to be secured in a country that reflects my ideals. But does this give me the right to deprive muslims their right in Lebanon because there aint another christian country in the ME?
but how would you feel if you lived in a nation that was formed specifically to give that life, living secure in a country that reflects your ideals? I think that is the point, Jews have been persecuted for hundreds upon hundreds of years and they sacrificed more than an of us know to form this nation - and that was after they were nearly exterminated simply for being who they are. More to Oakman's earlier point: You can be arrested in Saudi Arabia (birthplace of Islam) for simply carryying a Christian bible. If you were a Jew when the Shah was over thrown, your life was over. In a supposedly western Islamic nation, Turkey, you would not survive if you attempted to build a church. So Oakman's point could be better stated as, "why is only Israel criticized?"
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Bassam Saoud wrote:
I am also a christian minority in the middleeast and I do know the meaning to be secured in a country that reflects my ideals. But does this give me the right to deprive muslims their right in Lebanon because there aint another christian country in the ME?
but how would you feel if you lived in a nation that was formed specifically to give that life, living secure in a country that reflects your ideals? I think that is the point, Jews have been persecuted for hundreds upon hundreds of years and they sacrificed more than an of us know to form this nation - and that was after they were nearly exterminated simply for being who they are. More to Oakman's earlier point: You can be arrested in Saudi Arabia (birthplace of Islam) for simply carryying a Christian bible. If you were a Jew when the Shah was over thrown, your life was over. In a supposedly western Islamic nation, Turkey, you would not survive if you attempted to build a church. So Oakman's point could be better stated as, "why is only Israel criticized?"
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
I think you missed my reply to Oakman: "I find it very discriminating when a basic human right law is not repsected in any given country whether Saudi Arabia or israel or whatever. All people have the right to choose their destiny. Look at the United States, you have a Federal System where each state decides its own laws* It is a wonderful system , peak of democracy in my opinion. I hope one day we as lebanese make use of this system to solve our differences * Give or take "
Mike Gaskey wrote:
So Oakman's point could be better stated as, "why is only Israel criticized?"
Almost every muslim nation that I know about have recognized Israel right of existance or have offered it in exchange for Peace. This is not the question on the table. Just for the sake of the debate assume that None of them recognized israel, israel already have the technology to protect itself. you cannot defeat a nuclear nation from outside. I hope this conclude this debate. The real problem and this is something Mr. Bush recognized is that the real problem is the right of the Palestinian people. The Palestinian state is not recognized, The people of palestine are refugees everywhere and those that are in are facing incredible chalanges and occupation. This is the problem. This is the heart of the 2 state solution that Mr.Bush (my heroe) proposed.
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Bassam Saoud wrote:
I am not sure where you are going with this.
Me, either. Other than my comment about the irony of one semite racially discriminating against another. Sometimes I ask questions because I don't know the answer. ;)
Jon Soap Box 1.0: the first, the original, reborn troll-less
Oakman wrote:
Sometimes I ask questions because I don't know the answer
You wouldn't make for a good lawyer!
------------------------------------ "When Belly Full, Chin Hit Chest" Confucius 502BC
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Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Well, for one thing, the ultimate source is a Syrian state controlled paper
ok, I interpret that as saying, "biased against Israel" - am I correct??
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Settlements will stay (and grow)
This is an issue I really really do not understand. As much as I have been able to infer, Israelis have built / are builing on land the Palestinians consider to be theirs. But by the same token how do Palestinians have any greater claim on the land then does Israel, because isn't this land that Israel won during a war that was defensive and not offensive? I'm sure your realize that I'm far removed from that part of the world and have limited knowledge but this does reflect my understanding.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
refugee issue not resolved
This one I think I understand, but please correct me if you think I'm wrong. My understanding is that there are a (huge) number of Palestinians that believe they have a claim on lands within what the majority of the rest of the world considers to be Israel plus land that is in greater dispute (ie., Israeli settlements). The desire is to repatriot all ceding land in both categories to the Palestinians. That would be sheer folly n the part of Israel as it gaurantees their nation be lost. Why is that, the idea of repatrioting, an Israeli problem? Why can't these people be resettled in land currently occupied and controlled by Palestinians??
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
East Jerusalem
This I really do not understand, at all. If I'm correct (and again, please correct me) the idea is to cede half of the city to Palestinians - sort of like America ceding half of Washington DC to Iran or North Korea, an invitation to suicide.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
Not much of a chance of peace going forward with what he's offering.
Why? Where is any sort of peace proposal from the Palestinians? What I heard sounded to me like an offer, a proposal that would require a counter offer from a legitimate negotiator.
Mustafa Ismail Mustafa wrote:
the partitioning wall etc
Sorry I skipped this earlier. The wall has saved Isareli lives and would not have been built had there not be
Mike Gaskey wrote:
My understanding is that there are a (huge) number of Palestinians that believe they have a claim on lands within what the majority of the rest of the world considers to be Israel plus land that is in greater dispute (ie., Israeli settlements).
A few things I know about this: There were roughly 700,000 Arab inhabitants of what was the original Israel, almost all of whom fled, many of them because of threats of or actual violence done. There were roughly 600,000 Jewish inhabitants of what was Trans-Jordan at the time of the partition, almost all of whom fled, many of them because of threats of or actual violence done. The 600,000 Jews were welcomed into Israel and given lands and support until they got back on their feet. While some of their descendants may have moved onto disputed lands on the west bank, none of them are making any claims on the lands their grandfathers owned. The 700,000 Palestinians were almost immediately imprisoned by their brother Arabs in refugee camps where many of them still reside. They are despised and distrusted by most Arabs who want them to have a 'homeland' simply to get rid of them. They are the po' white trash of the Arab world. The original 700,000 have grown to over 2,000,000 - all of whom want to individually be given lands equal to what their grandfathers' owned. i.e. about three times as much land as their now deceased progenitors owned. One great irony is that most of the once-Jewish land that was abandoned during the partition is now part of Jordan - which has no intention of giving it to Israel, or the Palestinians. This, in spite of the fact that Trans-Jordan as it was known, was intended to be the Palestinian homeland, just as Israel was to be the Jewish homeland. It is not surprising to me that the Palestinians are bitter, hateful, and believe every man's hand is against them. Of course they rage against their powerlessness and turn to violence at the slightest provocation. Their political mullahs use these feelings to create shock troops (orc-fodder in RPG terms) and suicide bombers who die knowing that Saudi Arabia will gift their family with more money than any ten Palestinians could earn in a lifetime. Nor is it particularly surprising that the Israelis have no interest in sharing the west bank (not the east, I have been surprised how many people think that Israel is settling across the river) with the Palestinians anymore than you and I would share our land with fera
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I think you missed my reply to Oakman: "I find it very discriminating when a basic human right law is not repsected in any given country whether Saudi Arabia or israel or whatever. All people have the right to choose their destiny. Look at the United States, you have a Federal System where each state decides its own laws* It is a wonderful system , peak of democracy in my opinion. I hope one day we as lebanese make use of this system to solve our differences * Give or take "
Mike Gaskey wrote:
So Oakman's point could be better stated as, "why is only Israel criticized?"
Almost every muslim nation that I know about have recognized Israel right of existance or have offered it in exchange for Peace. This is not the question on the table. Just for the sake of the debate assume that None of them recognized israel, israel already have the technology to protect itself. you cannot defeat a nuclear nation from outside. I hope this conclude this debate. The real problem and this is something Mr. Bush recognized is that the real problem is the right of the Palestinian people. The Palestinian state is not recognized, The people of palestine are refugees everywhere and those that are in are facing incredible chalanges and occupation. This is the problem. This is the heart of the 2 state solution that Mr.Bush (my heroe) proposed.
Bassam Saoud wrote:
"I find it very discriminating ...
we agree.
Bassam Saoud wrote:
you cannot defeat a nuclear nation from outside. I hope this conclude this debate.
we agree.
Bassam Saoud wrote:
The Palestinian state is not recognized
here we disagree. I have never, not ever heard that Palestinians have declared a state. Have they? It is my impression that they never will until Israel ceases to exist.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
My understanding is that there are a (huge) number of Palestinians that believe they have a claim on lands within what the majority of the rest of the world considers to be Israel plus land that is in greater dispute (ie., Israeli settlements).
A few things I know about this: There were roughly 700,000 Arab inhabitants of what was the original Israel, almost all of whom fled, many of them because of threats of or actual violence done. There were roughly 600,000 Jewish inhabitants of what was Trans-Jordan at the time of the partition, almost all of whom fled, many of them because of threats of or actual violence done. The 600,000 Jews were welcomed into Israel and given lands and support until they got back on their feet. While some of their descendants may have moved onto disputed lands on the west bank, none of them are making any claims on the lands their grandfathers owned. The 700,000 Palestinians were almost immediately imprisoned by their brother Arabs in refugee camps where many of them still reside. They are despised and distrusted by most Arabs who want them to have a 'homeland' simply to get rid of them. They are the po' white trash of the Arab world. The original 700,000 have grown to over 2,000,000 - all of whom want to individually be given lands equal to what their grandfathers' owned. i.e. about three times as much land as their now deceased progenitors owned. One great irony is that most of the once-Jewish land that was abandoned during the partition is now part of Jordan - which has no intention of giving it to Israel, or the Palestinians. This, in spite of the fact that Trans-Jordan as it was known, was intended to be the Palestinian homeland, just as Israel was to be the Jewish homeland. It is not surprising to me that the Palestinians are bitter, hateful, and believe every man's hand is against them. Of course they rage against their powerlessness and turn to violence at the slightest provocation. Their political mullahs use these feelings to create shock troops (orc-fodder in RPG terms) and suicide bombers who die knowing that Saudi Arabia will gift their family with more money than any ten Palestinians could earn in a lifetime. Nor is it particularly surprising that the Israelis have no interest in sharing the west bank (not the east, I have been surprised how many people think that Israel is settling across the river) with the Palestinians anymore than you and I would share our land with fera
Thanks - fills in a few details. Picture remains the same, just much more clear.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
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Thanks - fills in a few details. Picture remains the same, just much more clear.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
fills in a few details
It did for me, too. Until it was explained - and the explanation backed up with independent investigation (momma oak didn't raise no fool) - I couldn't understand why the Palestinans were the way they were or why the Israelis treated them so badly.
Jon Soap Box 1.0: the first, the original, reborn troll-less
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Bassam Saoud wrote:
"I find it very discriminating ...
we agree.
Bassam Saoud wrote:
you cannot defeat a nuclear nation from outside. I hope this conclude this debate.
we agree.
Bassam Saoud wrote:
The Palestinian state is not recognized
here we disagree. I have never, not ever heard that Palestinians have declared a state. Have they? It is my impression that they never will until Israel ceases to exist.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Mike Gaskey wrote:
here we disagree. I have never, not ever heard that Palestinians have declared a state. Have they? It is my impression that they never will until Israel ceases to exist.
funny:)
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Mike Gaskey wrote:
My understanding is that there are a (huge) number of Palestinians that believe they have a claim on lands within what the majority of the rest of the world considers to be Israel plus land that is in greater dispute (ie., Israeli settlements).
A few things I know about this: There were roughly 700,000 Arab inhabitants of what was the original Israel, almost all of whom fled, many of them because of threats of or actual violence done. There were roughly 600,000 Jewish inhabitants of what was Trans-Jordan at the time of the partition, almost all of whom fled, many of them because of threats of or actual violence done. The 600,000 Jews were welcomed into Israel and given lands and support until they got back on their feet. While some of their descendants may have moved onto disputed lands on the west bank, none of them are making any claims on the lands their grandfathers owned. The 700,000 Palestinians were almost immediately imprisoned by their brother Arabs in refugee camps where many of them still reside. They are despised and distrusted by most Arabs who want them to have a 'homeland' simply to get rid of them. They are the po' white trash of the Arab world. The original 700,000 have grown to over 2,000,000 - all of whom want to individually be given lands equal to what their grandfathers' owned. i.e. about three times as much land as their now deceased progenitors owned. One great irony is that most of the once-Jewish land that was abandoned during the partition is now part of Jordan - which has no intention of giving it to Israel, or the Palestinians. This, in spite of the fact that Trans-Jordan as it was known, was intended to be the Palestinian homeland, just as Israel was to be the Jewish homeland. It is not surprising to me that the Palestinians are bitter, hateful, and believe every man's hand is against them. Of course they rage against their powerlessness and turn to violence at the slightest provocation. Their political mullahs use these feelings to create shock troops (orc-fodder in RPG terms) and suicide bombers who die knowing that Saudi Arabia will gift their family with more money than any ten Palestinians could earn in a lifetime. Nor is it particularly surprising that the Israelis have no interest in sharing the west bank (not the east, I have been surprised how many people think that Israel is settling across the river) with the Palestinians anymore than you and I would share our land with fera
Oakman wrote:
with the Palestinians anymore than you and I would share our land with feral dogs, no matter how much we value our own animals.
so you are equating Palestinians to dogs?
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Oakman wrote:
with the Palestinians anymore than you and I would share our land with feral dogs, no matter how much we value our own animals.
so you are equating Palestinians to dogs?
Bassam Saoud wrote:
so you are equating Palestinians to dogs?
Last time I looked the folks who treated Palestinians like dogs were called "Lebanese," and "Jordanians" and "Saudis" and "Egyptians." Do you disagree?
Jon Soap Box 1.0: the first, the original, reborn troll-less
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Bassam Saoud wrote:
so you are equating Palestinians to dogs?
Last time I looked the folks who treated Palestinians like dogs were called "Lebanese," and "Jordanians" and "Saudis" and "Egyptians." Do you disagree?
Jon Soap Box 1.0: the first, the original, reborn troll-less
Without going into details, two wrongs dont make a right.
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Thanks - fills in a few details. Picture remains the same, just much more clear.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
Not really, for the picture to be clear, I recommend you read the old testiment with focus on Imsaleites and Philistines. I would also read about the crusuades. If you have I would also read about World War 1 and World War 2 and the struggle of power in the middleast. Almost everything Oakman said is either wrong or 1/2 truth.
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Thanks - fills in a few details. Picture remains the same, just much more clear.
Mike - typical white guy. The USA does have universal healthcare, but you have to pay for it. D'oh. Thomas Mann - "Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." The NYT - my leftist brochure. Calling an illegal alien an “undocumented immigrant” is like calling a drug dealer an “unlicensed pharmacist”. God doesn't believe in atheists, therefore they don't exist.
I would also watch this youtube video. It is part of a speech a UK member of the parliament [^]gave (of jewish background)
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Not really, for the picture to be clear, I recommend you read the old testiment with focus on Imsaleites and Philistines. I would also read about the crusuades. If you have I would also read about World War 1 and World War 2 and the struggle of power in the middleast. Almost everything Oakman said is either wrong or 1/2 truth.
Bassam Saoud wrote:
Almost everything Oakman said is either wrong or 1/2 truth
Everything I said is the truth. If I had the time and wanted to take the trouble I could cite you on the subject of Palestinians. Your disdain and dislike for them comes through in every word. Every historical fact that I put down can be easily checked in any decent history of the region. Numbers might be a little off since I was working from memory, but they're in the ballpark. Israelis don't have the right of it in the Middle East, Bassam, and I think you'd be hard put to find me ever saying they did. I can see clearly that they are defensive, angry, capable of justifying great cruelty and clinging desperately to a feeling of superiority to explain their penchant for violence. But Arabs don't have the right of it in the Middle East, either, Bassam, and you seem to need to claim they do. I can see clearly that they are defensive, angry, capable of justifying great cruelty and clinging desperately to a feeling of superiority to explain their penchant for violence. You say you don't see that at all and instead apparently want to believe I'm a racist for being able to spot and tell the truth.
Jon Soap Box 1.0: the first, the original, reborn troll-less
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Bassam Saoud wrote:
Almost everything Oakman said is either wrong or 1/2 truth
Everything I said is the truth. If I had the time and wanted to take the trouble I could cite you on the subject of Palestinians. Your disdain and dislike for them comes through in every word. Every historical fact that I put down can be easily checked in any decent history of the region. Numbers might be a little off since I was working from memory, but they're in the ballpark. Israelis don't have the right of it in the Middle East, Bassam, and I think you'd be hard put to find me ever saying they did. I can see clearly that they are defensive, angry, capable of justifying great cruelty and clinging desperately to a feeling of superiority to explain their penchant for violence. But Arabs don't have the right of it in the Middle East, either, Bassam, and you seem to need to claim they do. I can see clearly that they are defensive, angry, capable of justifying great cruelty and clinging desperately to a feeling of superiority to explain their penchant for violence. You say you don't see that at all and instead apparently want to believe I'm a racist for being able to spot and tell the truth.
Jon Soap Box 1.0: the first, the original, reborn troll-less
I agree with you when you give justice its due like you did in this post and disagree with you when you show racism as you did in a previous post equating palistinians to dogs. Contrary to your stereotype of you always knowing what I think, I greatly understand the jewish sentiment and distrust they have to the palestinains because I am a minority too , I do know what fear means. Yet that doesnt mean they have right to deprive the palestinians of the right of choosing their own destiny which their own state.
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I agree with you when you give justice its due like you did in this post and disagree with you when you show racism as you did in a previous post equating palistinians to dogs. Contrary to your stereotype of you always knowing what I think, I greatly understand the jewish sentiment and distrust they have to the palestinains because I am a minority too , I do know what fear means. Yet that doesnt mean they have right to deprive the palestinians of the right of choosing their own destiny which their own state.
Bassam Saoud wrote:
when you show racism as you did in a previous post equating palistinians to dogs
Bullshit. My simile made them feral, not dogs. But even if I did, Palestinians aren't a race. When the Lebanese pen them up in labor camps and then use their army to go in and shoot down anyone who has said he won't put up with such treatment any longer, that's not racism, either - just prejudice and savagery. Playing the racism card and the minority card and the victim card in one paragraph is pretty good. I'm trying to remember if you have ever discussed the middle east without playing at least one of them.
Jon Soap Box 1.0: the first, the original, reborn troll-less