Is Codeproject getting soft?
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Paul said: "That is right What is needed is to use these code snippets to build a lot of solution that developers can drop into their projects and bingo." Come on Paul, that doesn't make any sense. No credible organization is going allow code to go into their applications that comes from someone who doesn't warrant their ownership of the intellectual property. Anyone that is using "free" code from either CP or CG is exposing themselves to risks that just aren't worth it. And there is no way that Chris could provide any warranty on the ownership of the code, even if he wanted to. So I think this whole issue is Much Ado About Nothing. Professional developers don't use unwarranted "free" code in their applications... period! Gordy
Gordy, Please can you explain this whole issue of warranty? It seems to me that even MFC does not come with any warranty. From your points, this site is not even necessary, since you the professional developers will not use codes here in the first place, or I'm reading too much into your post? Paul.
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Chris, Nice to hear from you. > What on earth are you talking about?? Can you explain this part? However, this file and the accompanying source code may not be hosted on a website or bulletin board without the authors written permission. Anyway, speedy recovery. Paul.
Hey Paul, Asking that other websites do not post my code on their websites without asking me is completely different from allowing anyone to use my code in their apps. Not many websites are happy to allow you to take their content and post it on their own site. Everyone else who posts their stuff on this site is more than welcome to post their stuff where ever they wish (and many do!) - my personal wish to be asked before my stuff is used on another site is a personal preference and has nothing to do with what anyone else does
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Copyright means that the person who wrote the code has intellectual ownership of the code - it doesn't mean no one else can use it. Everyone who posts here is effectively placing their code in the Public Domain - hence it can be used. All copyright does is say "The author wrote it - don't pretend that YOU wrote it". Why are you always complaining Paul
> Everyone who posts here is effectively placing their code > in the Public Domain - hence it can be used. Please take your time to read through the copyright issues, and do not assume you are leaving in an ideal world. Your view on public domain code is a bit limited. Maybe you might not have realized this, but copyright issues was at the center of the break-way-from-codeguru. > All copyright does is say "The author wrote it - don't > pretend that YOU wrote it". There is nothing wrong with this. Going further with do not use it in commercial applications makes with feel whether the codes should be posted here at all. > Why are you always complaining Paul? Simple, I care about this site and will not just sit to assume everything here is perfect. Does this piss you off? sorry. If EarthWeb has listened to complains at the start of codeguru take over, there will hardly be a need for another MFC site. Paul.
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Gordy, Please can you explain this whole issue of warranty? It seems to me that even MFC does not come with any warranty. From your points, this site is not even necessary, since you the professional developers will not use codes here in the first place, or I'm reading too much into your post? Paul.
Paul CP is great to see how developers solve problems. Plus developers can find "free code" and modify it and fine tune and expand it. That's fine! But what you really shouldn't do is drop a complete CP component into your application. Why? Because someone else owns the code, but you don't really know who. If I buy a Dundas/Stingray component, they warrant that the code is their intellectual property, and that I can use it under their license agreement. Say Stingray sold a component that included code that belonged to someone else who could legally establish their ownership rights (highly unlikely it would ever happen). Say that person started legal action against me for using their intellectual property. I could go back to Stingray and claim damages based on the fact that they warranted that it was their intellectual property. What if the very same thing happened after using a component from CodeProject (instead of Stingray)? Well no one has given me a warranty about who the legal owner of the code is, so I'd be fully exposed. I'd be liable to damages (if they were legally established) in that situation. That's why it is a bad idea for a developer to use code in their application that doesn't come with a warranty establishing its legal ownership. As for Microsoft... well when you buy VC++/MFC they do warrant that they own the IP, and that you can use it under the terms of the license. But CP and CG, by definition, can not provide any warranties concerning ownership, so therefore, professional developers would be crazy to include these components in a commercial application. Gordy
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Hey Paul, Asking that other websites do not post my code on their websites without asking me is completely different from allowing anyone to use my code in their apps. Not many websites are happy to allow you to take their content and post it on their own site. Everyone else who posts their stuff on this site is more than welcome to post their stuff where ever they wish (and many do!) - my personal wish to be asked before my stuff is used on another site is a personal preference and has nothing to do with what anyone else does
Hello Chris, Nice chip in. > Asking that other websites do not post my code on their > websites without asking me is completely different from > allowing anyone to use my code in their apps. Not many > websites are happy to allow you to take their content and > post it on their own site. I do not think any site is interested in duplicating the work here. Codeguru, the only other MFC code site is got the original codes there, and like this site no one is going about grabbing sources from other sites to post to there. Maybe your target is freeware developers who post their sources over the net. Unfortunately, this personal wish is becoming the personal wishes of others here on this site too, and one could just imagine the number of written permissions needed to post a source to an application.
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Paul CP is great to see how developers solve problems. Plus developers can find "free code" and modify it and fine tune and expand it. That's fine! But what you really shouldn't do is drop a complete CP component into your application. Why? Because someone else owns the code, but you don't really know who. If I buy a Dundas/Stingray component, they warrant that the code is their intellectual property, and that I can use it under their license agreement. Say Stingray sold a component that included code that belonged to someone else who could legally establish their ownership rights (highly unlikely it would ever happen). Say that person started legal action against me for using their intellectual property. I could go back to Stingray and claim damages based on the fact that they warranted that it was their intellectual property. What if the very same thing happened after using a component from CodeProject (instead of Stingray)? Well no one has given me a warranty about who the legal owner of the code is, so I'd be fully exposed. I'd be liable to damages (if they were legally established) in that situation. That's why it is a bad idea for a developer to use code in their application that doesn't come with a warranty establishing its legal ownership. As for Microsoft... well when you buy VC++/MFC they do warrant that they own the IP, and that you can use it under the terms of the license. But CP and CG, by definition, can not provide any warranties concerning ownership, so therefore, professional developers would be crazy to include these components in a commercial application. Gordy
Hello Gordy, Nice point here. So CP should actually be doing the ff... > CP is great to see how developers solve problems. Plus > developers can find "free code" and modify it and fine > tune and expand it. That's fine! Then I guess you should be worried too, since you can hardly now find a "free code" to modify, fine tune and expand :-) BTW, Stas library does not satisfy your criteria for warranty, but is being used in many commercial applications. It is really unfortunately, don't you think so? :-)))) Even unfortunate is the fact that components from Dundas/Stingray do not match it in what it does!
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Paul CP is great to see how developers solve problems. Plus developers can find "free code" and modify it and fine tune and expand it. That's fine! But what you really shouldn't do is drop a complete CP component into your application. Why? Because someone else owns the code, but you don't really know who. If I buy a Dundas/Stingray component, they warrant that the code is their intellectual property, and that I can use it under their license agreement. Say Stingray sold a component that included code that belonged to someone else who could legally establish their ownership rights (highly unlikely it would ever happen). Say that person started legal action against me for using their intellectual property. I could go back to Stingray and claim damages based on the fact that they warranted that it was their intellectual property. What if the very same thing happened after using a component from CodeProject (instead of Stingray)? Well no one has given me a warranty about who the legal owner of the code is, so I'd be fully exposed. I'd be liable to damages (if they were legally established) in that situation. That's why it is a bad idea for a developer to use code in their application that doesn't come with a warranty establishing its legal ownership. As for Microsoft... well when you buy VC++/MFC they do warrant that they own the IP, and that you can use it under the terms of the license. But CP and CG, by definition, can not provide any warranties concerning ownership, so therefore, professional developers would be crazy to include these components in a commercial application. Gordy
G'day Gordy, Is using code from here any different from using code which is printed in a book/magazine? Does my buying the book/magazine offer the same warrenty as a company such as Stingray does? Should we use have any code reuse, or should we just end up making it all up ourselves? Sounds like a productive use of time. Have fun, Paul Westcott
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Hello Gordy, Nice point here. So CP should actually be doing the ff... > CP is great to see how developers solve problems. Plus > developers can find "free code" and modify it and fine > tune and expand it. That's fine! Then I guess you should be worried too, since you can hardly now find a "free code" to modify, fine tune and expand :-) BTW, Stas library does not satisfy your criteria for warranty, but is being used in many commercial applications. It is really unfortunately, don't you think so? :-)))) Even unfortunate is the fact that components from Dundas/Stingray do not match it in what it does!
Paul I can't explain any better than I already have. CP is a great site for looking at Code. In fact it a great place to for anything except getting code for free, that you then turn around and charge money for. If I take anyone's IP, and the edit it... if the editing is thorough enough there becomes a point where I have now created my own IP. Where that exact line is, in any given situation, is governed by the facts of the situation. I didn't say that **no** developers used unwarranted code in their commercial applications... I said that "professional developers" in "credible companies" didn't use unwarranted code in their application. Do you think Microsoft, HP, and IBM are trolling free posted code areas to include it in their applications? I highly doubt it. So the original point stands. Gordy
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Paul I can't explain any better than I already have. CP is a great site for looking at Code. In fact it a great place to for anything except getting code for free, that you then turn around and charge money for. If I take anyone's IP, and the edit it... if the editing is thorough enough there becomes a point where I have now created my own IP. Where that exact line is, in any given situation, is governed by the facts of the situation. I didn't say that **no** developers used unwarranted code in their commercial applications... I said that "professional developers" in "credible companies" didn't use unwarranted code in their application. Do you think Microsoft, HP, and IBM are trolling free posted code areas to include it in their applications? I highly doubt it. So the original point stands. Gordy
Actually, HP is using the BCG Library (what Paul keeps calling the Stas library, the developer's first name). And it's not like MS is exactly a large producer of apps that use MFC either..
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G'day Gordy, Is using code from here any different from using code which is printed in a book/magazine? Does my buying the book/magazine offer the same warrenty as a company such as Stingray does? Should we use have any code reuse, or should we just end up making it all up ourselves? Sounds like a productive use of time. Have fun, Paul Westcott
Paul Wescott IP issues are not neatly packaged. If I use a snippet from a magazine (or from CP) I'm not likely to run into IP ownership issues. But even then, I'm sure the magazine does address the ownership issue with the author. I highly doubt that DDJ would publish an article of my code, without an agreement whereby I warranted that it was in fact my own code. But notice I also referred to a "component." First, you don't see code for an entire component in a magazine. Second, we are free to use and resuse components that we buy and license from the code owner. Surely you're not suggesting that a professional developer would take code from an anonymous poster (like you find on CP and CG) and use it in a commercial application, without knowing whether the anonymous poster in fact owned the code they posted? I don't think so. I'd never dreaming of using a "free" component in an application unless someone had given me the legal protection I need through an explicit warranty of legal ownership. The risks would be too high! Gordy
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G'day Gordy, Is using code from here any different from using code which is printed in a book/magazine? Does my buying the book/magazine offer the same warrenty as a company such as Stingray does? Should we use have any code reuse, or should we just end up making it all up ourselves? Sounds like a productive use of time. Have fun, Paul Westcott
Oh Gawd, I can't believe I'm getting into this :) Fundamentally, yes, using code from a book or magazine is different than using publicly posted code. Publishers have formalized agreements, and formal reviews of intellectual property and do their best to ensure that the code doesn't infringe on someone else's patent or copyright. I want to be clear that I love this site, and the dynamic that it generates and in no way do I want to cast a shadow over its success. Quite the opposite in-fact. Imagine someone posts a BIFF file reader/writer class to this site, it's used and appreciated by hundreds or thousands of people, and used in tons of applications, maybe some of them big important projects for companies like GM, Ford and AT&T. Later, we all discover that this library in-fact includes some sourcecode stolen from Microsoft or some other source. You can be sure that it would be one unholy mess, with all kinds of lawsuits, injunctions and steamed customers. So I guess fundamentally its all about risk. As developers using free posted code, we personally take the risk that the code we're using is legally clean. We sign agreements with our customers and employers telling them that we guarantee that. I doubt that professional errors and omissions insurance would cover most cases of infringement that resulted from the use of freely posted code, but I'm not a lawyer (or an insurance salesman) so I'm not positive about that. We recently ran into a case where a major Fortune 1000 company cancelled the launch of a product because the legal department discovered after the fact that publicly posted code had been used in its creation. If you're not in the F1000 or indirectly working for them then you probably don't care about this, but they sure do.
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Actually, HP is using the BCG Library (what Paul keeps calling the Stas library, the developer's first name). And it's not like MS is exactly a large producer of apps that use MFC either..
Jim I'm not familiar with that library, so I can't comment on the particulars. But let's say it is entirely unwarranted code that HP puts in a commercial application. What happens if I file a complaint against HP that some of the code in this library is mine, and they're using it without my permission. Then I sue them. What is their defense? They can't go back to Stas; they have no enforeable contractual relationship with him at all. Why would any company leave themselves open to those kind of legal risks? I am sure that there is more to this HP/BCG library situation than meets the eye. If you buy a used car... and you're smart... you take the trouble to find out if the seller of the car really owns it. I can't believe that HP would do the equivalent of that with code... i.e. use it even if they had no idea who it really belonged to. Gordy
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I totally agree with these two guys. This place is for coding, finding solutions etc. We need more code samples, not news. My two pennys worth :
There must be over 750 articles here, all for free, and you guys complain that this site isn't good enough and it should be better, there should be more. How about saying Thank You instead of bitching and being ungrateful for something that you don't have to read and you don't have to pay for
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Actually, HP is using the BCG Library (what Paul keeps calling the Stas library, the developer's first name). And it's not like MS is exactly a large producer of apps that use MFC either..
Hello Jim, Nice points there. What we needed is a community of developers to help each other. When your *lights* go off, and you run to CodeProject/Codeguru site to find a solution there could be nothing better. Oh! after the smile you open the package to find, not-be-be-used-in-commercial-applications, you will curse your day! I personally do not write commercial applications *directly" now, but just not happy about this restriction on intermediate solutions, which at times provide only idea but not a desired design and you will have to recode a lot of parts to your needs. Very simple copyright notices should not hurt anyone here, since we all benefit from each others code. This is the only way one could feel belonging to a family of developers, and will be more than satisfied to throw out any cool work he/she does--my humble thoughts. Paul.
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Hello Jim, Nice points there. What we needed is a community of developers to help each other. When your *lights* go off, and you run to CodeProject/Codeguru site to find a solution there could be nothing better. Oh! after the smile you open the package to find, not-be-be-used-in-commercial-applications, you will curse your day! I personally do not write commercial applications *directly" now, but just not happy about this restriction on intermediate solutions, which at times provide only idea but not a desired design and you will have to recode a lot of parts to your needs. Very simple copyright notices should not hurt anyone here, since we all benefit from each others code. This is the only way one could feel belonging to a family of developers, and will be more than satisfied to throw out any cool work he/she does--my humble thoughts. Paul.
Paul Are you missing the point on purpose? This issue has absolutely nothing to do with CodeProject or CodeGuru. CP can't give people permission to use code posted on CP, for the simple reason that CP does not have any way to legally establish who owns the code posted here. It's just that simple. So if you use it in a commercial app you leave yourself open. Not to CP, but to some developer who might be able to legally establish their ownership of code you used without their permission. You are twisting things to make it look like a CP/CG "restriction." It really doesn't have anything to do with software either, for that matter. Let's say I collect 35 short story submissions from anonymous posters on a literature bulletin board. I'm not going to turn around and put them in a book, and publish it and sell it. Why? Because I have no idea whose work it really is. If I were a book publisher I would get legal protection in the form of warranties or assurances from the submitting author that they owned the copyright on the works they were submitting. Same issue applies here. It's not fair to portray it as a CodeProject or CodeGuru restriction, when it is just simply the way things work in **ALL** intellectual property matters. Gordy
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Sorry for the delay in replying to this - I've got the flu and feel like crap at the moment. CodeProject is a site for developers like you and me. It's not an online version of MSDN. I started this site simply because I wanted a place where developers could share their experiences in learning and help others who were just beginning. If you want the best technical information on windows development then there are thousands of books out there that are far more convenient to read and learn from than CodeProject. If you want to feel part of a real community, meet others, have your code praised / criticised / improved then CodeProject is the place to be. I am trying to build a place that is fun to hang out at, and a place where there is no "them and us" mentality. I want to try and bring "industry" (ie Microsoft, DevelopMentor etc) and "developers" (us!) together - since in the end the two are one and the same. The site is you. It's what you guys make it. Everything is open, everything can be commented on, and everyone can have their say. If you want more techinical articles then send stuff in and this will encourage others. If there are bits you don't like then don't read them - or send in suggestions how they can be improved. This is pretty much a one-man show so some suggestions will take a while to be implemented - but I am working my ass off for you guys to give you something you enjoy. Help me to help you. cheers, Chris Maunde
Chris I agree with you, theres enough documentation to send you insane available, its good to have some light hearted news and views to read. I personally use the site everyday, learn alot and use it as a break from work. Keep up the good work, there are people out here that appreciate your effort
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Is it only me or is everyone as well feeling that Codeproject is increasingly getting political and simply is a accumulating more "fluff" that's not really hot? Lots of interviews, discussions, information on trips to Redmond....etc...these are fine, but I think Codeproject's overdoing it. Not good for Codeproject's health. Even the BIG interviews (apparently with Matt Pietrek, Chris Sells) don't have enough meat. It's all about how life is, what's up in the interviewee's life, etc. Codeproject is first and foremost a DEVELOPER SITE. If people want fun stuff and a lot of chatter, there are other places to do it. Don't get me wrong, I am just getting concerned at the way things are going. In the meantime, I guess Codeproject's rival web site, CodeGuru, has surpassed Codeproject in terms of quality. It looked like at one time Codeproject was providing increasingly quality content, and I am sure everyone will agree. But in a relatively short time, CodeGuru has become a major player again, with high quality stuff-they don't have all this gossip and blah blah in their site; they simply are a hard core Developer site. I know I am going to attract some flak for this, but please, this is simply my opinion-I am wondering if anyone else feels the same way I do.... Thanks and have a nice day
I don't know if you noticed, but much of the stuff submitted here is submitted by *the developers*. Not much code has been posted lately, but maybe that's because nobody's solved a nasty problem lately that they could/would share with the rest of us. Personally I don't hink CodeGuru is any better or worse than CodeProject..
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I don't know if you noticed, but much of the stuff submitted here is submitted by *the developers*. Not much code has been posted lately, but maybe that's because nobody's solved a nasty problem lately that they could/would share with the rest of us. Personally I don't hink CodeGuru is any better or worse than CodeProject..
Tomorrow and friday are usually my 'Oh my God my in-tray is full!' day when I try and post stuff that I've let go while I busily keep the site going. So once I post some back-logged articles tomorrow can we have a big thread about how you guys kicking my butt all over the place has made me sit up and do some work for once? ;P
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I don't know if you noticed, but much of the stuff submitted here is submitted by *the developers*. Not much code has been posted lately, but maybe that's because nobody's solved a nasty problem lately that they could/would share with the rest of us. Personally I don't hink CodeGuru is any better or worse than CodeProject..
I have to strongly disagree with the post that started this thread but also want to thank the writer for choosing a subject that would get so many people involved. How limiting to want a site with little variety. I suppose it would work if you wanted to limit the number of people who visit the site or perhaps if people weren't so diverse. I for one, appreciate the fluff. I am currently in school learning web design and the fluff makes this site less intimidating for me. The site is about developers helping developers, don't assume that means code only.
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Tomorrow and friday are usually my 'Oh my God my in-tray is full!' day when I try and post stuff that I've let go while I busily keep the site going. So once I post some back-logged articles tomorrow can we have a big thread about how you guys kicking my butt all over the place has made me sit up and do some work for once? ;P
Who's next? :P j/k I don't think most people realize the work and time involved in keeping CodeProject up and running smoothly all while trying to appease everyone, update articles, post news, add features, clean up existing stuff, form partnerships, get advertising revenue, and review article content, which includes fixing all the nasty spelling errors and sloppy grammer. Oh and also tryiing to have some free time to actually have a life. In my opinion the whole "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" applies to this whole thread, and that is MHO. And I do have a name and proud of it, -Erik