Today was pretty quiet
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Read it, its about our monetary system.
Why?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Its something everyone needs to research.
Why?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The quotes are especially important, don't disregard them.
Really?
It's not necessary to be so stupid, either, but people manage it. - Christian Graus, 2009 AD
d@nish wrote:
Why?
The answer to your question is in the quote itself.
d@nish wrote:
Why?
Because it has a profound influence over everyone's life and country.
d@nish wrote:
Really?
Really. Those are very important quotes.
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Bob Emmett wrote:
As to the factual content, very little.
You wouldn't know whats fact if it slapped you in the face. There is nothing I stated that is fictional, there is nothing you can quote that is not fact.
Bob Emmett wrote:
I think that a democracy should have regulatory control of its agencies
This isn't a democracy it is a constitutional republic, and the fed is a purely unconstitutional and criminal institution. You are simply an idiot.
Bob Emmett wrote:
I am not a citizen of the USA and my opinion is not relevant.
Obviously. Your opinions are insignificant.
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d@nish wrote:
Why?
The answer to your question is in the quote itself.
d@nish wrote:
Why?
Because it has a profound influence over everyone's life and country.
d@nish wrote:
Really?
Really. Those are very important quotes.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
quote
You call it a quote? It is bigger than the essays I wrote back in school.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Because it has a profound influence over everyone's life and country.
One never ending paragraph that influences the world - I can't buy that.
It's not necessary to be so stupid, either, but people manage it. - Christian Graus, 2009 AD
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
quote
You call it a quote? It is bigger than the essays I wrote back in school.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Because it has a profound influence over everyone's life and country.
One never ending paragraph that influences the world - I can't buy that.
It's not necessary to be so stupid, either, but people manage it. - Christian Graus, 2009 AD
d@nish wrote:
One never ending paragraph that influences the world - I can't buy that.
I was talking about our monetary system. That is what has a profound influence over everyone's life and country, I mean come on, you know this. That is why it is important to research it and understand it.
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Computafreak wrote:
Is there anybody whom you disagree with as regards to this who isn't an idiot?
Yes, the ones that are not in denial. The ones that don't block out information like this as a "conspiracy theory". This is real and nothing contradicts it as false. Its pure fact, and if it isn't then I challenge you to prove me wrong.
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d@nish wrote:
One never ending paragraph that influences the world - I can't buy that.
I was talking about our monetary system. That is what has a profound influence over everyone's life and country, I mean come on, you know this. That is why it is important to research it and understand it.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
I was talking about our monetary system.
You wrote that? All on your own?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
I mean come on, you know this.
Nope. And I don't care.
It's not necessary to be so stupid, either, but people manage it. - Christian Graus, 2009 AD
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
I was talking about our monetary system.
You wrote that? All on your own?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
I mean come on, you know this.
Nope. And I don't care.
It's not necessary to be so stupid, either, but people manage it. - Christian Graus, 2009 AD
d@nish wrote:
You wrote that? All on your own?
I gathered the quotes, I wrote everything that is not in small font.
d@nish wrote:
Nope. And I don't care.
Well India is a hopeless nation, so I can understand how you would keep your head down. :^)
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d@nish wrote:
You wrote that? All on your own?
I gathered the quotes, I wrote everything that is not in small font.
d@nish wrote:
Nope. And I don't care.
Well India is a hopeless nation, so I can understand how you would keep your head down. :^)
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Well India is a hopeless nation
Any nation that does not have citizens like you can never ever be hopeless.
It's not necessary to be so stupid, either, but people manage it. - Christian Graus, 2009 AD
d@nish wrote:
Any nation that does not have citizens like you can never ever be hopeless.
Probably because it knows nothing but hopelessness. For instance, most North Koreans believe that they live in paradise because they have no comprehension of anything better and they are told what to believe by their leader.
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d@nish wrote:
Any nation that does not have citizens like you can never ever be hopeless.
Probably because it knows nothing but hopelessness. For instance, most North Koreans believe that they live in paradise because they have no comprehension of anything better and they are told what to believe by their leader.
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Bob Emmett wrote:
As to the factual content, very little.
You wouldn't know whats fact if it slapped you in the face. There is nothing I stated that is fictional, there is nothing you can quote that is not fact.
Bob Emmett wrote:
I think that a democracy should have regulatory control of its agencies
This isn't a democracy it is a constitutional republic, and the fed is a purely unconstitutional and criminal institution. You are simply an idiot.
Bob Emmett wrote:
I am not a citizen of the USA and my opinion is not relevant.
Obviously. Your opinions are insignificant.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
there is nothing you can quote that is not fact.
"List of facts":
- "You are a hypocrite"
- "You are beyond the meaning of the word idiot"
- "No-one cares what you think"
- "Chuck Norris is ashamed of you"
- "These are all quotes (hence the speech marks), so they must be facts"
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Your opinions are insignificant.
"Just like yours." Everything contained in this post is fact. It is also on the internet, therefore it must be true.
If at first you don't succeed, you're not Chuck Norris.
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Computafreak wrote:
Is there anybody whom you disagree with as regards to this who isn't an idiot?
Yes, the ones that are not in denial. The ones that don't block out information like this as a "conspiracy theory". This is real and nothing contradicts it as false. Its pure fact, and if it isn't then I challenge you to prove me wrong.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
I challenge you to prove me wrong.
I'm sorry that you feel that way, but this isn't how logic works. What you've effectively done is make an assertion. It is your responsibility to prove it, not mine to disprove it. So far, the only evidence you've provided is your word that it's right, and loads of highly subjective quotes. If you can provide objective evidence, laid out clearly (and in a reasonable font size), then I'll start to look. As it stands, that's not evidence. What I'm interested in are historical dates, and traceable quotes which pretty much directly state the obvious. For example, if one of your quotes was "We do not believe that it would be in the public interest to have the [Fiscal Bureau|whatever your money regulator is called] audited", followed by a series of blocked audit requests, and a budgetary black hole traced to a quango associated with the Fiscal Bureau, then I'd start to be interested. As it is, it's logically inconsistent to ask me to provide the proof for you.
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Do you like being stupid? The central bank acts as a independent institution that controls the monetary system of the nation it represents. The central bank loans the money that it makes out of thin air (devaluing the currency, taking from people's hard earned savings) and loans that out with interest to other banks, corporations (bonds) and the government (treasuries). It acts as a independent governmental body that governs and manipulates the economy and funds itself by printing its money and also using that money to collect interest (a tax so to speak). As we can clearly see with the federal reserve, it is extremely secretive about its operations. You have to remember that every single dollar in circulation must be paid back to the federal reserve with interest. As you can imagine, it is impossible without taking another loan from the central bank to pay off the old loan. The value of the dollar has decreased by 95% since the inception of the federal reserve. Any money that you save gets devalued (stolen) right out of your pocket. Its modern slavery. Again, the value of the dollar has dropped by 95% since the fed's inception and it is completely going down the gutter right now. Its not intelligent whatsoever for anyone to endorse this giant ponzi scheme debt monster. Below is required reading. The first witness to be called is Abraham Lincoln. He warned, "I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and cause me to tremble for safety of my country; corporations have been enthroned, an era of corruption in High Places will follow, and the Money Power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the People, until the wealth is aggregated in a few hands, and the Republic destroyed." Congressman Wright Patman decared, "In the U.S. today, we have in effect two governments. We have the duly constituted government, then we have an independent, uncontrolled and uncoordinated government in the Federal Reserve, operating the money powers which are reserved to congress by the Constitution." Congressman Charles Lindbergh maintained, "Our financial system is a false one and a huge burden on the people . . . The Federal Reserve Act establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the President signs this bill, the invisible government of the monetary power will be legalized . . . The people must make a declaration of independence to relieve themselves from the Monetary Power . . . The worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by th
Wow... CSS, there may be problems with the Fed, but you're exaggerating pretty much everything. 1) The Fed does not create money in order to pay itself. It operates like a business, making money from loan interest rate, and PAYING dividends to its member banks. Every FDIC-insured bank in the country owns some amount of stock in the federal reserve system, on which they're paid a flat 6% annual dividend. 2) The Fed adjusts the amount of deposits it takes and the amount of loans it gives in order to adjust the "Fed Funds Rate", as it's often known. For this purpose it both creates AND DESTROYS money, intentionally inflating or deflating the currency. This regulation of the money supply is supposed to reduce the effects of the standard economic cycle (Booms and recessions). When the economy is booming, and all the bubbles are forming, as always happens, they increase interest rates and shrink the money supply to make it a little more difficult to "create" money through lending. This is like applying some extra friction to slow things down. When the economy drops, like it's been doing lately, they lower interest rates and inject more money into the economy, to stimulate lending and jump-start things. 3) The Fed is technically independent, but it is supervised by congress. Eight times a year, the Fed governors go before the FOMC (Federal Open Market Committee - a group of congressmen) and have to actively defend all of their policy decisions. 4) It is in no way secretive about its operations. Go to the fed's web site, and you can get a detailed balance sheet and see exactly where their money is coming from and going. Every action they take is publicized and debated to no end... I don't see where you're getting this idea from at all. 5) Yes, the money supply has inflated quite a bit since 1913 (Something like that), when the Fed was created. Some amount of inflation has been deemed healthy for the economy, as it encourages people to invest money instead of shoving it under their mattress. As usual, Wikipedia is a great indirect source of knowledge... Look up "Federal Reserve System", "Central Bank", and "Money creation" to start. It may not be technically authoritative, but it's more accurate than quotes and sound bytes from politicians. Disclaimer: I'm not a financial expert or an economist, just someone who does some research now and then, so feel free to dispute anything I've written.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark.
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Wow... CSS, there may be problems with the Fed, but you're exaggerating pretty much everything. 1) The Fed does not create money in order to pay itself. It operates like a business, making money from loan interest rate, and PAYING dividends to its member banks. Every FDIC-insured bank in the country owns some amount of stock in the federal reserve system, on which they're paid a flat 6% annual dividend. 2) The Fed adjusts the amount of deposits it takes and the amount of loans it gives in order to adjust the "Fed Funds Rate", as it's often known. For this purpose it both creates AND DESTROYS money, intentionally inflating or deflating the currency. This regulation of the money supply is supposed to reduce the effects of the standard economic cycle (Booms and recessions). When the economy is booming, and all the bubbles are forming, as always happens, they increase interest rates and shrink the money supply to make it a little more difficult to "create" money through lending. This is like applying some extra friction to slow things down. When the economy drops, like it's been doing lately, they lower interest rates and inject more money into the economy, to stimulate lending and jump-start things. 3) The Fed is technically independent, but it is supervised by congress. Eight times a year, the Fed governors go before the FOMC (Federal Open Market Committee - a group of congressmen) and have to actively defend all of their policy decisions. 4) It is in no way secretive about its operations. Go to the fed's web site, and you can get a detailed balance sheet and see exactly where their money is coming from and going. Every action they take is publicized and debated to no end... I don't see where you're getting this idea from at all. 5) Yes, the money supply has inflated quite a bit since 1913 (Something like that), when the Fed was created. Some amount of inflation has been deemed healthy for the economy, as it encourages people to invest money instead of shoving it under their mattress. As usual, Wikipedia is a great indirect source of knowledge... Look up "Federal Reserve System", "Central Bank", and "Money creation" to start. It may not be technically authoritative, but it's more accurate than quotes and sound bytes from politicians. Disclaimer: I'm not a financial expert or an economist, just someone who does some research now and then, so feel free to dispute anything I've written.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
The Fed does not create money in order to pay itself.
The fed creates the money that it loans out, and then collects interest on that money it created. So yes, it does fund itself with the printing press.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
For this purpose it both creates AND DESTROYS money
Yes, but the value of the dollar has been devalued by 95% since its inception.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
The Fed is technically independent, but it is supervised by congress.
But it does not provide any detail about its operations. Here is what the fed tells the congress.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
It is in no way secretive about its operations.
:laugh: CSPAN CLIP 1[^] CSPAN CLIP 2[^] CSPAN CLIP 3[^] CSPAN CLIP 4[^] CSPAN CLIP 5[^] The fed is a purely unconstitutional and criminal organization. You did not prove me wrong on anything, you did not discuss how every dollar in circulation is debt that must be paid back with interest attached. A central bank has no place in the Untied States of America. The power to make DEBT-FREE money belongs to congress by majority vote, that is the constitutional law. There are no legal or acceptable alternatives.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
For this purpose it both creates AND DESTROYS money, intentionally inflating or deflating the currency. This regulation of the money supply is supposed to reduce the effects of the standard economic cycle (Booms and recessions).
I want to add that booms and busts are created by the fed, to extract real
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I guess I scared the retard back into his cave.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
I challenge you to prove me wrong.
I'm sorry that you feel that way, but this isn't how logic works. What you've effectively done is make an assertion. It is your responsibility to prove it, not mine to disprove it. So far, the only evidence you've provided is your word that it's right, and loads of highly subjective quotes. If you can provide objective evidence, laid out clearly (and in a reasonable font size), then I'll start to look. As it stands, that's not evidence. What I'm interested in are historical dates, and traceable quotes which pretty much directly state the obvious. For example, if one of your quotes was "We do not believe that it would be in the public interest to have the [Fiscal Bureau|whatever your money regulator is called] audited", followed by a series of blocked audit requests, and a budgetary black hole traced to a quango associated with the Fiscal Bureau, then I'd start to be interested. As it is, it's logically inconsistent to ask me to provide the proof for you.
Well if you are going to whine and bitch about my small summaries that don't take long to read, here is proof for the first fact. FACT #1: The Fed is a private for profit corporation. Below are excerpts from a court case proving the Federal Reserve system's status. As you will see, the court ruled that the Federal Reserve Banks are "independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations", and there is not sufficient "federal government control over 'detailed physical performance' and 'day to day operation'" of the Federal Reserve Bank for it to be considered a federal agency: Lewis v. United States, 680 F.2d 1239 (1982) John L. Lewis, Plaintiff/Appellant, v. United States of America, Defendant/Appellee. No. 80-5905 United States Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit. Submitted March 2, 1982. Decided April 19, 1982. As Amended June 24, 1982. Plaintiff, who was injured by vehicle owned and operated by a federal reserve bank, brought action alleging jurisdiction under the Federal Tort Claims Act. The United States District Court for the Central District of California, David W. Williams, J., dismissed holding that federal reserve bank was not a federal agency within meaning of Act and that the court therefore lacked subject-matter jurisdiction. Appeal was taken. The Court of Appeals, Poole, Circuit Judge, held that federal reserve banks are not federal instrumentalities for purposes of the Act, but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations. Affirmed. 1. United States There are no sharp criteria for determining whether an entity is a federal agency within meaning of the Federal Tort Claims Act, but critical factor is existence of federal government control over "detailed physical performance" and "day to day operation" of an entity. . . . 2. United States Federal reserve banks are not federal instrumentalities for purposes of a Federal Tort Claims Act, but are independent, privately owned and locally controlled corporations in light of fact that direct supervision and control of each bank is exercised by board of directors, federal reserve banks, though heavily regulated, are locally controlled by their member banks, banks are listed neither as "wholly owned" government corporations nor as "mixed ownership" corporations; federal reserve banks receive no appropriated funds from Congress and the banks are empowered to sue and be sued in their own names. . . . 3. United States Under the Federal Tort Claims Act, federal liabi
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You really are making a fool out of yourself.[^] Alt[^] By the way that is you being smacked.
modified on Thursday, September 10, 2009 5:01 PM
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
The Fed does not create money in order to pay itself.
The fed creates the money that it loans out, and then collects interest on that money it created. So yes, it does fund itself with the printing press.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
For this purpose it both creates AND DESTROYS money
Yes, but the value of the dollar has been devalued by 95% since its inception.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
The Fed is technically independent, but it is supervised by congress.
But it does not provide any detail about its operations. Here is what the fed tells the congress.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
It is in no way secretive about its operations.
:laugh: CSPAN CLIP 1[^] CSPAN CLIP 2[^] CSPAN CLIP 3[^] CSPAN CLIP 4[^] CSPAN CLIP 5[^] The fed is a purely unconstitutional and criminal organization. You did not prove me wrong on anything, you did not discuss how every dollar in circulation is debt that must be paid back with interest attached. A central bank has no place in the Untied States of America. The power to make DEBT-FREE money belongs to congress by majority vote, that is the constitutional law. There are no legal or acceptable alternatives.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
For this purpose it both creates AND DESTROYS money, intentionally inflating or deflating the currency. This regulation of the money supply is supposed to reduce the effects of the standard economic cycle (Booms and recessions).
I want to add that booms and busts are created by the fed, to extract real
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
But it does not provide any detail about its operations.
Straight from its web site... Try getting off YouTube for a bit and look at some real information: http://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/bst.htm[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Yes, but the value of the dollar has been devalued by 95% since its inception.
Yes, intentionally. This is what the government wants. As I said, it encourages investment, which keeps money circulating in the economy. Explain to me exactly how it's a "bad" thing, keeping in mind that salaries tend to increase to compensate for this. If money didn't decrease in value over time, it would encourage people to shove it all under their mattress (Or the equivalent), when that money would be put to better use reinvested in the market.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The fed creates the money that it loans out, and then collects interest on that money it created. So yes, it does fund itself with the printing press.
You're obviously missing the point. It both creates and destroys money. It doesn't just keep inventing new money to fund itself. It serves as the beginning and end point for the currency. It's the point at which money flows into or out of the market. And you're completely misreading my point. It does not create the money IN ORDER TO FUND ITSELF. It creates the money in order to manipulate the market interest rates and regulate the economy. The "Fed Funds Rate" isn't just a magic number they set. It's a measurement of how much banks charge each other for overnight loans. In order to change this number, the Fed has to create new money (To lower the rate) or destroy existing money (To raise the rate). It's not just saying "Ok, we lost ten million bucks this month. Someone go add that much to our bank account!" And you're also missing one subtle point here... Its profits go directly to the US Treasury! (http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/faq/faqfrs.htm#6[^])
Proud to have
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
But it does not provide any detail about its operations.
Straight from its web site... Try getting off YouTube for a bit and look at some real information: http://www.federalreserve.gov/monetarypolicy/bst.htm[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Yes, but the value of the dollar has been devalued by 95% since its inception.
Yes, intentionally. This is what the government wants. As I said, it encourages investment, which keeps money circulating in the economy. Explain to me exactly how it's a "bad" thing, keeping in mind that salaries tend to increase to compensate for this. If money didn't decrease in value over time, it would encourage people to shove it all under their mattress (Or the equivalent), when that money would be put to better use reinvested in the market.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The fed creates the money that it loans out, and then collects interest on that money it created. So yes, it does fund itself with the printing press.
You're obviously missing the point. It both creates and destroys money. It doesn't just keep inventing new money to fund itself. It serves as the beginning and end point for the currency. It's the point at which money flows into or out of the market. And you're completely misreading my point. It does not create the money IN ORDER TO FUND ITSELF. It creates the money in order to manipulate the market interest rates and regulate the economy. The "Fed Funds Rate" isn't just a magic number they set. It's a measurement of how much banks charge each other for overnight loans. In order to change this number, the Fed has to create new money (To lower the rate) or destroy existing money (To raise the rate). It's not just saying "Ok, we lost ten million bucks this month. Someone go add that much to our bank account!" And you're also missing one subtle point here... Its profits go directly to the US Treasury! (http://www.federalreserve.gov/generalinfo/faq/faqfrs.htm#6[^])
Proud to have
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Try getting off YouTube for a bit and look at some real information:
Those were direct from congressman and the fed chairman himself. I suggest you view them. I get my information direct from the source.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Explain to me exactly how it's a "bad" thing
It discourages savings by punishing those who want to save money, and it sends out a false sense of economic growth, it takes money out of the hands of the people who earned and saved it and gives it to people who didn't earn it. Its pure criminal theft, its modern slavery.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
It both creates and destroys money.
Yeah, thats why the dollar is 95% gone and as of now being completely destroyed. Booms and busts are created by the fed, to extract real wealth from the economy. Its kind of like a big wave washing inland and as it goes back into the ocean it pulls out a lot of material with it. Here is a court case that proves that the fed is a private for profit corporation[^]
modified on Thursday, September 10, 2009 4:13 PM
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Try getting off YouTube for a bit and look at some real information:
Those were direct from congressman and the fed chairman himself. I suggest you view them. I get my information direct from the source.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Explain to me exactly how it's a "bad" thing
It discourages savings by punishing those who want to save money, and it sends out a false sense of economic growth, it takes money out of the hands of the people who earned and saved it and gives it to people who didn't earn it. Its pure criminal theft, its modern slavery.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
It both creates and destroys money.
Yeah, thats why the dollar is 95% gone and as of now being completely destroyed. Booms and busts are created by the fed, to extract real wealth from the economy. Its kind of like a big wave washing inland and as it goes back into the ocean it pulls out a lot of material with it. Here is a court case that proves that the fed is a private for profit corporation[^]
modified on Thursday, September 10, 2009 4:13 PM
Direct quotes from politicians are meaningless... The entire job of a political speech is to spin the facts to suit someone's agenda... If you haven't learned that by now, I don't know what rock you've been hiding under. What matters are the actual numbers, and those are freely accessible. They even provide ways for you to automate data downloads, so you can grab their weekly reports easily. Looks pretty transparent to me.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
It discourages savings by punishing those who want to save money
That's the point! Reinvestment sparks economic growth. If I shove my money under a mattress, sure, my savings are safe. If, however, I invest my money in the stock market, or even directly into a small business, I'm helping businesses grow, which helps our economy. As a middle ground, I can stick my money in a savings account or a CD, and collect risk-free interest (Since those are backed by the FDIC) at a lesser rate.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
eah, thats why the dollar is 95% gone and as of now being completely destroyed.
Are you completely ignoring everything I say? I can see why most people just call you an idiot or ignore you... Wake up to reality. This "95%" figure you keep spouting is just a twist of the increase in the CPI (Consumer Price Index), a measure of inflation. It means that give or take, things cost 20 times as much as they did in 1913, almost a HUNDRED years ago. You're also earning something like 20 times more than you would have in 1913, so the only real effect is the devaluation of the cash under your mattress, which goes right back to the previous point.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Booms and busts are created by the fed, to extract real wealth from the economy. Its kind of like a big wave washing inland and as it goes back into the ocean it pulls out a lot of material with it.
Now you're finally touching on some real criticism. There has been a lot of controversy over whether the Fed is creating the problem or helping to solve it. This is more related to the level of competence of the Fed governors, than it is to the system itself, and I can't really speak to the validity of this claim. As for your link... I'm not disputing that the Fed is a for-profit entity. As my link showed, the profits go to the US Treasury, NOT into the pockets of shareholders or executives.