A quotation for CSS
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I found this in a Slashdot comment, source uncited, and it's amazing how well it applies here, particularly to CSS's opposition to... Well, everything...
"This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the U.S. Department of Energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by a municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like, using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. At the appropriate time, as regulated by the U.S. Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the U.S. Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved automobile and set out to work on the roads build by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the U.S. Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school. After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to my house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and Fire Marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department. And then I log on to the internet -- which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration and post on [codeproject.com] about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right."
Wish I knew who originally wrote this, becaus
Ian, Post this in the front room and it will get +5 from all and sundry. Points a plenty just for finding it! Storred for use on another day.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done.
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I found this in a Slashdot comment, source uncited, and it's amazing how well it applies here, particularly to CSS's opposition to... Well, everything...
"This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the U.S. Department of Energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by a municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like, using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration. At the appropriate time, as regulated by the U.S. Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the U.S. Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved automobile and set out to work on the roads build by the local, state, and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to be sent out via the U.S. Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school. After spending another day not being maimed or killed at work thanks to the workplace regulations imposed by the Department of Labor and the Occupational Safety and Health administration, enjoying another two meals which again do not kill me because of the USDA, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to my house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and Fire Marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department. And then I log on to the internet -- which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration and post on [codeproject.com] about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right."
Wish I knew who originally wrote this, becaus
Meh. Pretty ridiculous straw man. I'm all for a complete overhaul of the medical system, but I'm not at ALL convinced by silliness like this -
Ian Shlasko wrote:
I watched this while eating my breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.
Right. Thank the FSM that the government takes such pains to ensure the safety of the food supply. If it wasn't for them, there'd be scandals from rotting peanuts, contaminated beef, salmonella-laden chicken, red tide fouled shellfish.... nope, don't see any of that, thanks to the brilliance of the FDA. Or improperly approved drugs, forced through the process by pharmceutical companies and their lobbyists. Or faulty medical devices, inadequately tested and with virtually no meaningful government review... And it would be just as easy to find fault with the DOT - maintained roads (bridges falling in Minnesota, some ridiculous percentage of which, nationwide, are in danger of failure...) or any other of these shining examples cited in the screed. Nope, this is no less simplistic and silly than CSS's positions. Kool-aid for the fan base, but hardly a convincing argument.
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Meh. Pretty ridiculous straw man. I'm all for a complete overhaul of the medical system, but I'm not at ALL convinced by silliness like this -
Ian Shlasko wrote:
I watched this while eating my breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.
Right. Thank the FSM that the government takes such pains to ensure the safety of the food supply. If it wasn't for them, there'd be scandals from rotting peanuts, contaminated beef, salmonella-laden chicken, red tide fouled shellfish.... nope, don't see any of that, thanks to the brilliance of the FDA. Or improperly approved drugs, forced through the process by pharmceutical companies and their lobbyists. Or faulty medical devices, inadequately tested and with virtually no meaningful government review... And it would be just as easy to find fault with the DOT - maintained roads (bridges falling in Minnesota, some ridiculous percentage of which, nationwide, are in danger of failure...) or any other of these shining examples cited in the screed. Nope, this is no less simplistic and silly than CSS's positions. Kool-aid for the fan base, but hardly a convincing argument.
I think the point it's trying to make is that the same people who constantly complain about how the government can't do anything right, are living comfortable lives BECAUSE of the things the government gets MOSTLY right. I don't think anyone's claiming that the government is perfect, but you have to admit that the listed groups make a huge positive impact on your daily lives, and we'd be a lot worse-off without them.
LunaticFringe wrote:
Right. Thank the FSM that the government takes such pains to ensure the safety of the food supply. If it wasn't for them, there'd be scandals from rotting peanuts, contaminated beef, salmonella-laden chicken, red tide fouled shellfish.... nope, don't see any of that, thanks to the brilliance of the FDA.
When you buy a slab of meat at the supermarket, are you carefully inspecting it for signs of decay or disease? No, you can just pick it up and be pretty confident that it's not going to kill you. Just the fact that the incidents you mentioned surprise and shock is, is an indication that the FDA is doing its job. Not perfectly, but adequately.
LunaticFringe wrote:
And it would be just as easy to find fault with the DOT - maintained roads (bridges falling in Minnesota, some ridiculous percentage of which, nationwide, are in danger of failure...) or any other of these shining examples cited in the screed.
Sure, you can find faults... You can get in your car and drive all the way over to those faults on hundreds of miles of paved roads that no one ever talks about. The DOT may not be perfect, but take a step back and look at the massive infrastructure in this country.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
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I think the point it's trying to make is that the same people who constantly complain about how the government can't do anything right, are living comfortable lives BECAUSE of the things the government gets MOSTLY right. I don't think anyone's claiming that the government is perfect, but you have to admit that the listed groups make a huge positive impact on your daily lives, and we'd be a lot worse-off without them.
LunaticFringe wrote:
Right. Thank the FSM that the government takes such pains to ensure the safety of the food supply. If it wasn't for them, there'd be scandals from rotting peanuts, contaminated beef, salmonella-laden chicken, red tide fouled shellfish.... nope, don't see any of that, thanks to the brilliance of the FDA.
When you buy a slab of meat at the supermarket, are you carefully inspecting it for signs of decay or disease? No, you can just pick it up and be pretty confident that it's not going to kill you. Just the fact that the incidents you mentioned surprise and shock is, is an indication that the FDA is doing its job. Not perfectly, but adequately.
LunaticFringe wrote:
And it would be just as easy to find fault with the DOT - maintained roads (bridges falling in Minnesota, some ridiculous percentage of which, nationwide, are in danger of failure...) or any other of these shining examples cited in the screed.
Sure, you can find faults... You can get in your car and drive all the way over to those faults on hundreds of miles of paved roads that no one ever talks about. The DOT may not be perfect, but take a step back and look at the massive infrastructure in this country.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
Once more, meh. :-D
Ian Shlasko wrote:
I think the point it's trying to make is that the same people who constantly complain about how the government can't do anything right, are living comfortable lives BECAUSE of the things the government gets MOSTLY right. I don't think anyone's claiming that the government is perfect, but you have to admit that the listed groups make a huge positive impact on your daily lives, and we'd be a lot worse-off without them.
No, I don't have to admit that - I don't agree with it. And I don't blindly trust meat I buy - I look at it closely; if it's fish I ask to smell it before I buy it, in order to make sure it's fresh. The government does not do this for me. And as regards food safety, citing a non-ending list of contamination scandals as proof that the system works is ludicrous. If these incidents had been caught by inspectors BEFORE the public was affected, you might have a point. But invariably, they aren't detected till after scores or hundreds of people have been sickened. The fact is the our food production and distribution system is terrible. I'll leave that there; the debate about the impact of factory farming methods is well known. And citing the (decaying) infrastructure of this country as evidence of sound government doesn't convince me for a moment, either. The country is living off infrastructure development that took place, by and large, 40 years or more ago. Nothing new has been done on the scale of previous works - interstate highways, for instance. Even NASA has sunk to utter uselessness - the fact that we're going to have to buy passage for our astronauts on the spacecraft of other countries in order to get into space is an excellent indicator of the superb vision and execution of the federal govt. No, I reiterate that I'm all for an overhaul of the medical system, and a robust 'government option'. But trying to sell it by making the govt. out to be some omniscient protector, without which my life would just suck, doesn't score any points at all. The way I see it, it's the governemt's corruption and incompetence that has created the health care mess in the first place.
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Once more, meh. :-D
Ian Shlasko wrote:
I think the point it's trying to make is that the same people who constantly complain about how the government can't do anything right, are living comfortable lives BECAUSE of the things the government gets MOSTLY right. I don't think anyone's claiming that the government is perfect, but you have to admit that the listed groups make a huge positive impact on your daily lives, and we'd be a lot worse-off without them.
No, I don't have to admit that - I don't agree with it. And I don't blindly trust meat I buy - I look at it closely; if it's fish I ask to smell it before I buy it, in order to make sure it's fresh. The government does not do this for me. And as regards food safety, citing a non-ending list of contamination scandals as proof that the system works is ludicrous. If these incidents had been caught by inspectors BEFORE the public was affected, you might have a point. But invariably, they aren't detected till after scores or hundreds of people have been sickened. The fact is the our food production and distribution system is terrible. I'll leave that there; the debate about the impact of factory farming methods is well known. And citing the (decaying) infrastructure of this country as evidence of sound government doesn't convince me for a moment, either. The country is living off infrastructure development that took place, by and large, 40 years or more ago. Nothing new has been done on the scale of previous works - interstate highways, for instance. Even NASA has sunk to utter uselessness - the fact that we're going to have to buy passage for our astronauts on the spacecraft of other countries in order to get into space is an excellent indicator of the superb vision and execution of the federal govt. No, I reiterate that I'm all for an overhaul of the medical system, and a robust 'government option'. But trying to sell it by making the govt. out to be some omniscient protector, without which my life would just suck, doesn't score any points at all. The way I see it, it's the governemt's corruption and incompetence that has created the health care mess in the first place.
How ironic that I just posted the original quotation because I found it interesting, and was going for either a laugh or some raised eyebrows (I haven't even formed my own opinion on Obama's medical reform yet)... But if we have to get into an involved debate...
LunaticFringe wrote:
No, I don't have to admit that - I don't agree with it. And I don't blindly trust meat I buy - I look at it closely; if it's fish I ask to smell it before I buy it, in order to make sure it's fresh. The government does not do this for me.
Ok, maybe buying raw meat and fish wasn't the best example, since that's notoriously one of the most difficult items with which to maintain quality... But any of the canned, boxed, or bagged goods that you buy without even thinking... Do you grab that box of cereal from the shelf and wonder if it's going to poison you? When you make coffee in the morning, do you test it for contaminants before drinking it? Again, I'm not saying the FDA is perfect, by any stretch. There's plenty of room for improvement... I'm just saying they're not just a bunch of bungling idiots like people keep implying... Even if they get 90% of things right, all of the media is going to concentrate only on that remaining 10%.
LunaticFringe wrote:
The country is living off infrastructure development that took place, by and large, 40 years or more ago. Nothing new has been done on the scale of previous works - interstate highways, for instance.
Right, because they're just decaying to uselessness. Remember when we used to be able to drive across the country without needing four-wheel drive to traverse those abandoned highways that have crumbled to gravel over the years? Sure would be nice if there was someone to maintain them, huh? Sure, they're not doing much in the way of new development or improvements, and maybe things are different where you live, but up in the NYC area (Metro area, not just the city), I see constant maintenance and repairs going on... There's a lot being done to keep things running smoothly, even if all you notice are the big disasters. (Yes, I agree that it SHOULD be overhauled/upgraded/improved - Just saying that they're still doing a reasonably good job of keeping things running)
LunaticFringe wrote:
Even NASA has sunk to utter uselessness
Yeah, I can't argue with that... They get a tiny piece of the feder
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How ironic that I just posted the original quotation because I found it interesting, and was going for either a laugh or some raised eyebrows (I haven't even formed my own opinion on Obama's medical reform yet)... But if we have to get into an involved debate...
LunaticFringe wrote:
No, I don't have to admit that - I don't agree with it. And I don't blindly trust meat I buy - I look at it closely; if it's fish I ask to smell it before I buy it, in order to make sure it's fresh. The government does not do this for me.
Ok, maybe buying raw meat and fish wasn't the best example, since that's notoriously one of the most difficult items with which to maintain quality... But any of the canned, boxed, or bagged goods that you buy without even thinking... Do you grab that box of cereal from the shelf and wonder if it's going to poison you? When you make coffee in the morning, do you test it for contaminants before drinking it? Again, I'm not saying the FDA is perfect, by any stretch. There's plenty of room for improvement... I'm just saying they're not just a bunch of bungling idiots like people keep implying... Even if they get 90% of things right, all of the media is going to concentrate only on that remaining 10%.
LunaticFringe wrote:
The country is living off infrastructure development that took place, by and large, 40 years or more ago. Nothing new has been done on the scale of previous works - interstate highways, for instance.
Right, because they're just decaying to uselessness. Remember when we used to be able to drive across the country without needing four-wheel drive to traverse those abandoned highways that have crumbled to gravel over the years? Sure would be nice if there was someone to maintain them, huh? Sure, they're not doing much in the way of new development or improvements, and maybe things are different where you live, but up in the NYC area (Metro area, not just the city), I see constant maintenance and repairs going on... There's a lot being done to keep things running smoothly, even if all you notice are the big disasters. (Yes, I agree that it SHOULD be overhauled/upgraded/improved - Just saying that they're still doing a reasonably good job of keeping things running)
LunaticFringe wrote:
Even NASA has sunk to utter uselessness
Yeah, I can't argue with that... They get a tiny piece of the feder
Ian Shlasko wrote:
But any of the canned, boxed, or bagged goods that you buy without even thinking... Do you grab that box of cereal from the shelf and wonder if it's going to poison you? When you make coffee in the morning, do you test it for contaminants before drinking it?
Let's see... peanut butter, packaged salad greens, peppers, pistachios... this is off the top of my head, recent stuff. And it's been a while since I had to give the correct terms for various syllogistic errors, but the idea that lack of contamination elsewhere implies that the FDA gets the credit is fallacious. It imnplies nothing of the sort - the FDA might very well be completely irrelevant. It might be more due to the solid business sense of the majority of producers, who realize that their long-term success depends on delivering quality product. The FDA doesn't enter into that equation.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Sure, they're not doing much in the way of new development or improvements, and maybe things are different where you live, but up in the NYC area (Metro area, not just the city), I see constant maintenance and repairs going on... There's a lot being done to keep things running smoothly, even if all you notice are the big disasters.
I'll concede this one. It's been a long time since I lived in NYC (lived in Flushing for a while), but from what I hear it's one of the better managed cities in the country now. I think it's also true that this is not the case nationally. The report on the state of the highways and bridges that came out int he wake of the Minnesota bridge collapse was clear on that. And NASA... I've said before that I'd like to see what Rutan could do with a fraction of their budget. The days of their being a technological leader are long, long gone. The Ares project is the ultimate example of their lack of vision and mismanagement - they don't have the nuts or imagination to do anything more than a remake of something already done 50 years before, and even then they've wasted every penny spent because they couldn't be accurate or honest about costs and timelines. It's like a Hollywood remake of a classic movie - unnecessary and doomed to be less than the original.
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Meh. Pretty ridiculous straw man. I'm all for a complete overhaul of the medical system, but I'm not at ALL convinced by silliness like this -
Ian Shlasko wrote:
I watched this while eating my breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.
Right. Thank the FSM that the government takes such pains to ensure the safety of the food supply. If it wasn't for them, there'd be scandals from rotting peanuts, contaminated beef, salmonella-laden chicken, red tide fouled shellfish.... nope, don't see any of that, thanks to the brilliance of the FDA. Or improperly approved drugs, forced through the process by pharmceutical companies and their lobbyists. Or faulty medical devices, inadequately tested and with virtually no meaningful government review... And it would be just as easy to find fault with the DOT - maintained roads (bridges falling in Minnesota, some ridiculous percentage of which, nationwide, are in danger of failure...) or any other of these shining examples cited in the screed. Nope, this is no less simplistic and silly than CSS's positions. Kool-aid for the fan base, but hardly a convincing argument.
:thumbsup::thumbsup:
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Too bad he's not willing to discuss all this. No reply for a few days now.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
But any of the canned, boxed, or bagged goods that you buy without even thinking... Do you grab that box of cereal from the shelf and wonder if it's going to poison you? When you make coffee in the morning, do you test it for contaminants before drinking it?
Let's see... peanut butter, packaged salad greens, peppers, pistachios... this is off the top of my head, recent stuff. And it's been a while since I had to give the correct terms for various syllogistic errors, but the idea that lack of contamination elsewhere implies that the FDA gets the credit is fallacious. It imnplies nothing of the sort - the FDA might very well be completely irrelevant. It might be more due to the solid business sense of the majority of producers, who realize that their long-term success depends on delivering quality product. The FDA doesn't enter into that equation.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Sure, they're not doing much in the way of new development or improvements, and maybe things are different where you live, but up in the NYC area (Metro area, not just the city), I see constant maintenance and repairs going on... There's a lot being done to keep things running smoothly, even if all you notice are the big disasters.
I'll concede this one. It's been a long time since I lived in NYC (lived in Flushing for a while), but from what I hear it's one of the better managed cities in the country now. I think it's also true that this is not the case nationally. The report on the state of the highways and bridges that came out int he wake of the Minnesota bridge collapse was clear on that. And NASA... I've said before that I'd like to see what Rutan could do with a fraction of their budget. The days of their being a technological leader are long, long gone. The Ares project is the ultimate example of their lack of vision and mismanagement - they don't have the nuts or imagination to do anything more than a remake of something already done 50 years before, and even then they've wasted every penny spent because they couldn't be accurate or honest about costs and timelines. It's like a Hollywood remake of a classic movie - unnecessary and doomed to be less than the original.
LunaticFringe wrote:
And NASA... I've said before that I'd like to see what Rutan could do with a fraction of their budget. The days of their being a technological leader are long, long gone. ... It's like a Hollywood remake of a classic movie - unnecessary and doomed to be less than the original.
I agree in part... NASA had the luxury of being able to research things that weren't necessarily for profit, much in the same manner that Google geeks do things in their 20% time that may or may not be productive. The private competitors are driven more by profitability. Now that I think about it, that might be NASA's biggest problem. In the old days, Apollo was top priority, so they were given tons of money and told to do whatever it took to get to the moon... Now they can't run a single off-track experiment without everyone whining about how much money they waste... Give them free reign again, and maybe we could get back to the old days. Still, some sort of collaboration between NASA and the private guys would be pretty amazing... Combine their fresh ideas with NASA's background and expertise, and it could really produce something amazing.
LunaticFringe wrote:
And it's been a while since I had to give the correct terms for various syllogistic errors, but the idea that lack of contamination elsewhere implies that the FDA gets the credit is fallacious. It imnplies nothing of the sort - the FDA might very well be completely irrelevant. It might be more due to the solid business sense of the majority of producers, who realize that their long-term success depends on delivering quality product. The FDA doesn't enter into that equation.
I suspect the answer is somewhere in between. The companies would regulate themselves to some degree, just out of fear of losing customers... But private enterprise is about profitability, so you figure they might cut corners here and there... Business is about taking risks, right? I think just the existence of the FDA might be encouraging them to step up their standards... As an analogy, most of us are, I hope, too morally-grounded to shoplift, but if you were ever tempted, wouldn't the security cameras make you think twice? Maybe those cameras aren't catching very many thieves, but their very existence might keep people in line. Maybe part of the FDA's job is to ensure that problems like that are highly publicized, and ensure that they aren't just cov
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LunaticFringe wrote:
And NASA... I've said before that I'd like to see what Rutan could do with a fraction of their budget. The days of their being a technological leader are long, long gone. ... It's like a Hollywood remake of a classic movie - unnecessary and doomed to be less than the original.
I agree in part... NASA had the luxury of being able to research things that weren't necessarily for profit, much in the same manner that Google geeks do things in their 20% time that may or may not be productive. The private competitors are driven more by profitability. Now that I think about it, that might be NASA's biggest problem. In the old days, Apollo was top priority, so they were given tons of money and told to do whatever it took to get to the moon... Now they can't run a single off-track experiment without everyone whining about how much money they waste... Give them free reign again, and maybe we could get back to the old days. Still, some sort of collaboration between NASA and the private guys would be pretty amazing... Combine their fresh ideas with NASA's background and expertise, and it could really produce something amazing.
LunaticFringe wrote:
And it's been a while since I had to give the correct terms for various syllogistic errors, but the idea that lack of contamination elsewhere implies that the FDA gets the credit is fallacious. It imnplies nothing of the sort - the FDA might very well be completely irrelevant. It might be more due to the solid business sense of the majority of producers, who realize that their long-term success depends on delivering quality product. The FDA doesn't enter into that equation.
I suspect the answer is somewhere in between. The companies would regulate themselves to some degree, just out of fear of losing customers... But private enterprise is about profitability, so you figure they might cut corners here and there... Business is about taking risks, right? I think just the existence of the FDA might be encouraging them to step up their standards... As an analogy, most of us are, I hope, too morally-grounded to shoplift, but if you were ever tempted, wouldn't the security cameras make you think twice? Maybe those cameras aren't catching very many thieves, but their very existence might keep people in line. Maybe part of the FDA's job is to ensure that problems like that are highly publicized, and ensure that they aren't just cov
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Still, some sort of collaboration between NASA and the private guys would be pretty amazing... Combine their fresh ideas with NASA's background and expertise, and it could really produce something amazing.
Absolutely! After Rutan demonstrated his reentry concept, I was really hoping NASA would look into applying it to their own problems; maybe trying to form some sort of consortium or something. But instead they announced the Ares thing, which was nothing more than government largesse for the big aerospace companies. And I agree with your last assesment of the FDA's role.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Still, some sort of collaboration between NASA and the private guys would be pretty amazing... Combine their fresh ideas with NASA's background and expertise, and it could really produce something amazing.
Absolutely! After Rutan demonstrated his reentry concept, I was really hoping NASA would look into applying it to their own problems; maybe trying to form some sort of consortium or something. But instead they announced the Ares thing, which was nothing more than government largesse for the big aerospace companies. And I agree with your last assesment of the FDA's role.
Yeah, I'm really wondering about the Orion/Ares program. It just seems like we're taking a huge step backward. The shuttle was a work of art, but we're apparently back in the Apollo days. Just stumbled upon this interesting tidbit, linked from the Virgin Galactic article on Wikipedia: http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/169943main_NASA_Virgin_MOU.pdf[^] So it looks like they've been exploring cooperation... Though that document is more than two years old, and would have expired already... I wonder if they're already exchanging ideas, and if we're just not seeing it yet because of the lag between design and implementation. You know how anything government-related is pretty much guaranteed to move at a snail's pace. One of the issues might be that anything these private companies figure out is probably being patented with intent to monetize... Not sure how much they're hoarding and how much they're sharing.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
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Yeah, I'm really wondering about the Orion/Ares program. It just seems like we're taking a huge step backward. The shuttle was a work of art, but we're apparently back in the Apollo days. Just stumbled upon this interesting tidbit, linked from the Virgin Galactic article on Wikipedia: http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/169943main_NASA_Virgin_MOU.pdf[^] So it looks like they've been exploring cooperation... Though that document is more than two years old, and would have expired already... I wonder if they're already exchanging ideas, and if we're just not seeing it yet because of the lag between design and implementation. You know how anything government-related is pretty much guaranteed to move at a snail's pace. One of the issues might be that anything these private companies figure out is probably being patented with intent to monetize... Not sure how much they're hoarding and how much they're sharing.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Yeah, I'm really wondering about the Orion/Ares program. It just seems like we're taking a huge step backward. The shuttle was a work of art, but we're apparently back in the Apollo days.
Yup. They tried to spin it otherwise, but it seems pretty undeniable to me.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
One of the issues might be that anything these private companies figure out is probably being patented with intent to monetize... Not sure how much they're hoarding and how much they're sharing.
Yeah, no doubt. Rutan played it pretty close to the vest up till the first public flights, I think - I'm no expert, but I don't think they were talking about the key concepts publicly beforehand. And the documentary they released still had stuff blurred out that was too proprietary, IIRC. Can't blame 'em - it's their work, their idea. That is an interesting document - looks as if NASA was making computational/simulation facilites available to Rutan's group, anyway.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Yeah, I'm really wondering about the Orion/Ares program. It just seems like we're taking a huge step backward. The shuttle was a work of art, but we're apparently back in the Apollo days.
Yup. They tried to spin it otherwise, but it seems pretty undeniable to me.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
One of the issues might be that anything these private companies figure out is probably being patented with intent to monetize... Not sure how much they're hoarding and how much they're sharing.
Yeah, no doubt. Rutan played it pretty close to the vest up till the first public flights, I think - I'm no expert, but I don't think they were talking about the key concepts publicly beforehand. And the documentary they released still had stuff blurred out that was too proprietary, IIRC. Can't blame 'em - it's their work, their idea. That is an interesting document - looks as if NASA was making computational/simulation facilites available to Rutan's group, anyway.
LunaticFringe wrote:
Rutan played it pretty close to the vest up till the first public flights
Rutan[^] Been around for years!
------------------------------------ In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.' I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms. Stephen J Gould
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Yeah, I'm really wondering about the Orion/Ares program. It just seems like we're taking a huge step backward. The shuttle was a work of art, but we're apparently back in the Apollo days.
Yup. They tried to spin it otherwise, but it seems pretty undeniable to me.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
One of the issues might be that anything these private companies figure out is probably being patented with intent to monetize... Not sure how much they're hoarding and how much they're sharing.
Yeah, no doubt. Rutan played it pretty close to the vest up till the first public flights, I think - I'm no expert, but I don't think they were talking about the key concepts publicly beforehand. And the documentary they released still had stuff blurred out that was too proprietary, IIRC. Can't blame 'em - it's their work, their idea. That is an interesting document - looks as if NASA was making computational/simulation facilites available to Rutan's group, anyway.
That's the trouble with private enterprise, when it comes to science. The very thing that encourages them to forge ahead (Profit) is also what inhibits cooperation. Maybe NASA should gather together the various private companies and make some kind of deal like: 1) NASA facilities available for use by all members without charge, along with some amount of government funding 2) Everything gets publicized - No trade secrets 3) Patent rights are retained by the inventors, but said inventors are required to allow royalty-based usage by other companies, discounted slightly for members of this arrangement, and free usage by NASA and non-profit groups. So basically, they get to use the existing infrastructure, get some cash from Uncle Sam, and to benefit from each others' advances, but they still get paid for being first across the line. The taxpayers pick up some portion of the cost, but everyone benefits from the R&D. Wonder how well something like that would work...
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
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LunaticFringe wrote:
Rutan played it pretty close to the vest up till the first public flights
Rutan[^] Been around for years!
------------------------------------ In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.' I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms. Stephen J Gould
Leave it to DD to reference the Doctor :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
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LunaticFringe wrote:
Rutan played it pretty close to the vest up till the first public flights
Rutan[^] Been around for years!
------------------------------------ In science, 'fact' can only mean 'confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent.' I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms. Stephen J Gould
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Meh. Pretty ridiculous straw man. I'm all for a complete overhaul of the medical system, but I'm not at ALL convinced by silliness like this -
Ian Shlasko wrote:
I watched this while eating my breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.
Right. Thank the FSM that the government takes such pains to ensure the safety of the food supply. If it wasn't for them, there'd be scandals from rotting peanuts, contaminated beef, salmonella-laden chicken, red tide fouled shellfish.... nope, don't see any of that, thanks to the brilliance of the FDA. Or improperly approved drugs, forced through the process by pharmceutical companies and their lobbyists. Or faulty medical devices, inadequately tested and with virtually no meaningful government review... And it would be just as easy to find fault with the DOT - maintained roads (bridges falling in Minnesota, some ridiculous percentage of which, nationwide, are in danger of failure...) or any other of these shining examples cited in the screed. Nope, this is no less simplistic and silly than CSS's positions. Kool-aid for the fan base, but hardly a convincing argument.
I took this to be a case of exageration in the opposite direction pointing out all the ways in which government agencies positively influence your day to day life. Of course, it stretches the point to make it as much as it can.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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I took this to be a case of exageration in the opposite direction pointing out all the ways in which government agencies positively influence your day to day life. Of course, it stretches the point to make it as much as it can.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
I think the point of it is like this little movie quote from Life of Brian: http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WhatHaveTheRomansEverDoneForUs[^] Basically, poking fun at the people who claim that government is 100% ineffective, while ignoring all of the ways in which it improves their life. It's all in good fun, though.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
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I took this to be a case of exageration in the opposite direction pointing out all the ways in which government agencies positively influence your day to day life. Of course, it stretches the point to make it as much as it can.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Very much exaggeration for effect. It took me a while to remember why it seemed familiar; a version of the original here was passed around for trolling several years ago. It took me a while to remember what to use as keywords, but I was able to find a the republican countertrolling version from the time. Technically I suppose I probably should update/redeact it to reflect shouting points that have changed in the last 4 years, but I'm not interested enough in political arguments to bother. :rolleyes: Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffee pot with water to prepare his morning coffee. Joe can afford the coffee because corporate loving rich Republicans exported our jobs overseas with NAFTA and CAFTA. With his first swallow of coffee, he takes his daily medication. His medications work because money-grubbing Republicans refuse to place price controls on drugs, thereby allowing pharmaceutical companies to earn enough money to pay for the extensive R&D and take the risks necessary to create miracle drugs. But the drugs still cost too much because government mandated health insurance has artificially increased the demand for medications with no one to police the prices, but that’s OK since Joe’s Bush-supporting bossman pays all but $10 of Joe's medications. In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient, none of which are damaging to his skin because some animal-hating sadistic corporations paid some scientists to swab the shampoo in some poor rabbit’s eyes. Just for kicks. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some dollar-worshipping conservative developers built some nice houses with pretty yards 15 miles from the industrial sector of the city, and Joe drives his comfortable and affordable “Japanese” car made in Georgia without the inflated cost of union labor, and Joe can stop on his way home to pick up a package of reasonably priced T-shirts at the evil Wal-Mart, instead of having to park his car and take a filthy subway to pay twice as much downtown. Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because his parents instilled in him the value of hard work so he studied when he was in school and learned that he could get by just fine without relying on the government. Joe's employer pays these benefits because Joe's employer doesn't Joe’s a valuable employee and Joe’s employer doesn’t want him to go work for his
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Very much exaggeration for effect. It took me a while to remember why it seemed familiar; a version of the original here was passed around for trolling several years ago. It took me a while to remember what to use as keywords, but I was able to find a the republican countertrolling version from the time. Technically I suppose I probably should update/redeact it to reflect shouting points that have changed in the last 4 years, but I'm not interested enough in political arguments to bother. :rolleyes: Joe gets up at 6 a.m. and fills his coffee pot with water to prepare his morning coffee. Joe can afford the coffee because corporate loving rich Republicans exported our jobs overseas with NAFTA and CAFTA. With his first swallow of coffee, he takes his daily medication. His medications work because money-grubbing Republicans refuse to place price controls on drugs, thereby allowing pharmaceutical companies to earn enough money to pay for the extensive R&D and take the risks necessary to create miracle drugs. But the drugs still cost too much because government mandated health insurance has artificially increased the demand for medications with no one to police the prices, but that’s OK since Joe’s Bush-supporting bossman pays all but $10 of Joe's medications. In the morning shower, Joe reaches for his shampoo. His bottle is properly labeled with each ingredient, none of which are damaging to his skin because some animal-hating sadistic corporations paid some scientists to swab the shampoo in some poor rabbit’s eyes. Just for kicks. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some dollar-worshipping conservative developers built some nice houses with pretty yards 15 miles from the industrial sector of the city, and Joe drives his comfortable and affordable “Japanese” car made in Georgia without the inflated cost of union labor, and Joe can stop on his way home to pick up a package of reasonably priced T-shirts at the evil Wal-Mart, instead of having to park his car and take a filthy subway to pay twice as much downtown. Joe begins his work day. He has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because his parents instilled in him the value of hard work so he studied when he was in school and learned that he could get by just fine without relying on the government. Joe's employer pays these benefits because Joe's employer doesn't Joe’s a valuable employee and Joe’s employer doesn’t want him to go work for his