Constitutional Law
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Actually, that's a common misconception. Correct me if I'm wrong, because I haven't researched this in a while, so my memory might be fuzzy... The truth is, the US Dollar is basically a bond. The Treasury issues these bonds, and the Federal Reserve buys them, essentially loaning money to the government, the same way it would loan you a couple hundred thousand bucks for a mortgage. The difference between the Fed lending to the government and your bank lending to you, is that though the Treasury DOES pay interest to the Fed, something like 97% of that interest is remitted back to the Treasury (The rest is operating expenses). So the government is getting a nearly-interest-free loan. So when you really think about it, the Fed is just controlling how much money it keeps under its mattress instead of circulating. The Treasury is the one adding new currency to the system.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
The fed also deals with private corporations and foreign entities. The Fed doesn't just give back the money it loaned to the treasury, the treasury takes out another loan to pay off the interest and it continues to grow indefinitely. Dont say they dont' becaues the treasury is in the red big time. All dollars in circulation are federal reserve notes which were loaned out to some intity with interest attached. The loan can never be paid back because to pay for interest one must take out another loan from the fed.
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The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized. 'Nuff said.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Yep, that looks right. Searches and seizures are allowed with a court-issued warrant... If they have "probable cause". 1) If someone AGREES to be searched (In the case of "If you want to get on this plane, you have to consent"), then they're temporarily waiving the right to be secure. They're allowing it. 2) If they lie in order to get the warrant, they should be prosecuted for perjury. 3) If they perform the search without a warrant and without consent, they should be prosecuted for home invasion, theft, whatever the circumstances require. (Assuming you're speaking exclusively about the illegal searches and seizures, since this doesn't preclude wiretapping)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
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nah, not really. See they gave the keys to enforcing this all to a branch of government that was more concerned with feeling important and the branch that is supposed to determine if the people writing how to do all this are wrong tend to be old, put in for politics that have everything to do with how they think women should reproduce and not how the Executive branch is stomping on the Constitution matters, and are sometimes completely inept. Meanwhile the people writing the laws occasionally get things right (like the fact that having a gold standard won't work when you don't have enough gold in the world to back all your currency) and mostly get things wrong (partiot acts 1 and 2.) You can't convince me that the Fed is a bad idea. It is okay and is not as bad as pretty much everything else I have had to deal with coming from our elected officials. The current situation globally for ecomomics was nto caused by the Fed. It was caused by a corrupt system with little to no regulation being allowed to get away with screwing a lot of people and with companies that made it worse with their own decisions. A company cancelled our credit card even though we had a modest balance, paid all our bills on time and were paying above the minimum. So instead of continuing to have good customers they decided to lose us and so lost a revenue stream. Makes perfect sense, right? And they did this to a lot of folks, made a big fuss out of all this lost revenue and got handed my tax money. When calling the representative to point out how stupid this was they asked me if I was a registered Rep. I got an answering machine when I said no. The system is crap. But it is what we have, and the people in charge won't let us fix it because it means they lose. So what do you do? Elect a guy that promises change and then changes his mind. Meh. Guess you do little to nothing.
Ah! Quite the contrary! I'm 24 years old. I got out of school about 2 years ago. I woke up just at the time when the bailouts were about to be passed; Obama and McCain were running (and NOT the only people running!). They both said they didn't want to pass the bill, but "they had to!" No. They did not have to. And that started us on the real path toward what I perceive as fascism. They passed the bill, even though both said they wouldn't. That gave me a rude awakening. So I looked for something else... I ended up looking at the Libertarian Party. And you know what? More people my age are easing into this old/new party. Because we want to be free from all of this bull. So yes, there's something to do. Go watch my video.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Yep, that looks right. Searches and seizures are allowed with a court-issued warrant... If they have "probable cause". 1) If someone AGREES to be searched (In the case of "If you want to get on this plane, you have to consent"), then they're temporarily waiving the right to be secure. They're allowing it. 2) If they lie in order to get the warrant, they should be prosecuted for perjury. 3) If they perform the search without a warrant and without consent, they should be prosecuted for home invasion, theft, whatever the circumstances require. (Assuming you're speaking exclusively about the illegal searches and seizures, since this doesn't preclude wiretapping)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
Wiretapping is an illegal search. (Papers and effects)
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The fed also deals with private corporations and foreign entities. The Fed doesn't just give back the money it loaned to the treasury, the treasury takes out another loan to pay off the interest and it continues to grow indefinitely. Dont say they dont' becaues the treasury is in the red big time. All dollars in circulation are federal reserve notes which were loaned out to some intity with interest attached. The loan can never be paid back because to pay for interest one must take out another loan from the fed.
Maybe you missed the part where nearly all of that interest is GIVEN back to the Treasury. In the end, the only thing the Treasury is paying for is the Fed's operating expenses, minus what they make from loaning to the private sector. Also remember that the government makes money through taxes, which it can use to pay down the debt without borrowing more money.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
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Maybe you missed the part where nearly all of that interest is GIVEN back to the Treasury. In the end, the only thing the Treasury is paying for is the Fed's operating expenses, minus what they make from loaning to the private sector. Also remember that the government makes money through taxes, which it can use to pay down the debt without borrowing more money.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Maybe you missed the part where nearly all of that interest is GIVEN back to the Treasury.
After they take out another loan, yeah they get it right back and then they have to give a little bit more. Also, why would the treasury have to pay more in interest from a high amount of money if all the fed has to to is enter that number into a computer and wire the newly created "money" to the treasury? Why not a flat fee? All dollars in circulation are federal reserve notes which were loaned out to some entity with interest attached. The loan can never be paid back because to pay for interest one must take out another loan from the fed. Again, why can't congress (the government) issue its own currency like the constitution mandates? Why must a private corporation have all that unregulated power to create fiat money and loan it out to any entity (foreign or domestic)(in secrecy) and congress ask for interest loans from it?
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Wiretapping is an illegal search. (Papers and effects)
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Wiretapping is an illegal search. (Papers and effects)
Is it? How do you define "effects?" How might someone else define "effects?" The founding fathers weren't planning on electronic communications, so they couldn't exactly plan for that. See, the definition isn't necessarily obvious... When you talk on the phone, you're sending electronic signals through someone else's network... Do you own those electrons? The wires transmitting them? Same thing for Internet traffic. Now, if they break into your house to install a tap without a warrant, then that's a violation of the Constitution. If they ask your TelCo or ISP to monitor your conversations and forward them a copy, and the TelCo/ISP agrees, there's nothing you can do about that. Usually there'll be a term in your phone/ISP contract stating that they will do whatever's necessary to comply with law enforcement.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
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Wiretapping still goes on... even under Obama. What a liar. Guantanamo still is open, even when he signed the Executive order to dismantle it THE DAY AFTER HE GOT IN OFFICE! He's a liar and I want a new president.
The entire government needs to be replaced and reconstructed back to a the constitutional model.
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Ah! Quite the contrary! I'm 24 years old. I got out of school about 2 years ago. I woke up just at the time when the bailouts were about to be passed; Obama and McCain were running (and NOT the only people running!). They both said they didn't want to pass the bill, but "they had to!" No. They did not have to. And that started us on the real path toward what I perceive as fascism. They passed the bill, even though both said they wouldn't. That gave me a rude awakening. So I looked for something else... I ended up looking at the Libertarian Party. And you know what? More people my age are easing into this old/new party. Because we want to be free from all of this bull. So yes, there's something to do. Go watch my video.
No. Because too many of the people in that party are just effing crazy. Seriously. You want me to take your party seriously, fix it. Get rid of the whack jobs spouting nonsense about gov't conspiracies, how we should fix the system by getting trusting you over people that are "corrupt" and people unwilling to show the powers that be that they are serious. Ron Paul ran, I was hoping he'd do better. But I am not joining a bunch of whack jobs, wingnuts and dingbats. I've got a wife I love dearly a kid to raise and none of you convince me they will be better off in your world than the current PoS one. I'm done with this silliness. I have stuff to do this weekend involving fingerpaints, playdoh and lots and lots of fun. Who knows, I might even use those things to play games with the kid.
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Is it? How do you define "effects?" How might someone else define "effects?" The founding fathers weren't planning on electronic communications, so they couldn't exactly plan for that. See, the definition isn't necessarily obvious... When you talk on the phone, you're sending electronic signals through someone else's network... Do you own those electrons? The wires transmitting them? Same thing for Internet traffic. Now, if they break into your house to install a tap without a warrant, then that's a violation of the Constitution. If they ask your TelCo or ISP to monitor your conversations and forward them a copy, and the TelCo/ISP agrees, there's nothing you can do about that. Usually there'll be a term in your phone/ISP contract stating that they will do whatever's necessary to comply with law enforcement.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
If you didn't sign an agreement that would allow TelCo/ISP to share you data then it is illegal. (Papers and effects).
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No. Because too many of the people in that party are just effing crazy. Seriously. You want me to take your party seriously, fix it. Get rid of the whack jobs spouting nonsense about gov't conspiracies, how we should fix the system by getting trusting you over people that are "corrupt" and people unwilling to show the powers that be that they are serious. Ron Paul ran, I was hoping he'd do better. But I am not joining a bunch of whack jobs, wingnuts and dingbats. I've got a wife I love dearly a kid to raise and none of you convince me they will be better off in your world than the current PoS one. I'm done with this silliness. I have stuff to do this weekend involving fingerpaints, playdoh and lots and lots of fun. Who knows, I might even use those things to play games with the kid.
ragnaroknrol wrote:
But I am not joining a bunch of whack jobs, wingnuts and dingbats. I've got a wife I love dearly a kid to raise and none of you convince me they will be better off in your world than the current PoS one.
Oh wow so you're gonna call me names just because you want to stick with the status quo and don't want to try to actually fix something and make it at least a little better? Yeah, I really do suggest you go back to your birdhole.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Maybe you missed the part where nearly all of that interest is GIVEN back to the Treasury.
After they take out another loan, yeah they get it right back and then they have to give a little bit more. Also, why would the treasury have to pay more in interest from a high amount of money if all the fed has to to is enter that number into a computer and wire the newly created "money" to the treasury? Why not a flat fee? All dollars in circulation are federal reserve notes which were loaned out to some entity with interest attached. The loan can never be paid back because to pay for interest one must take out another loan from the fed. Again, why can't congress (the government) issue its own currency like the constitution mandates? Why must a private corporation have all that unregulated power to create fiat money and loan it out to any entity (foreign or domestic)(in secrecy) and congress ask for interest loans from it?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
all the fed has to to is enter that number into a computer and wire the newly created "money" to the treasury
That's the point I was making above, or somewhere in this thread (Starting to lose track). The Fed can't create money! Only the Treasury can. What you're missing is the concept of fractional reserve banking. I was going to type out an explanation about this, but Wikipedia has a better one. Check out this link under "Money Creation" and scroll down a little to the table. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_reserve_banking#Money_creation[^] It's a bit hard to explain... This isn't something the Fed does, but something all banks do... When you deposit money into a savings account, they're actually lending that money out to other people (Even though it's not really theirs). That's where your interest comes from. The Fed does the same thing... It lends money to the government that other banks deposited in it. It takes some time to understand, but the gist of it is that the Fed is NOT printing new money or just incrementing a value in their accounts. All of the money comes from somewhere else.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
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If you didn't sign an agreement that would allow TelCo/ISP to share you data then it is illegal. (Papers and effects).
But it's not illegal, because "effects" doesn't necessarily include data being transmitted over someone else's wires. You may want to define it that way, but it's not written that way. That's what law is all about... Interpreting language. That's why contracts are so long and difficult to read... Because they try to make sure everything is defined exactly, leaving no room for interpretation.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
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The very act of "balance" is totally against the ideals of a free market economy. the government should not be a part of this. the problem is, this is a bank; it is not part of the government. they're working in collusion; why hasn't HR1207 passed yet?! there are 309 cosponsors of this bill; if TPTB really wanted it to pass, it would have under suspension already. The very fact that they have not passed it for 10 months means that they are hiding something. And by "they" I mean both the FR and our federalnational government.
Well, the problem with the free market economy is the naturally-occurring "boom and bust" cycle. This was what sparked the Great Depression (Though admittedly, the Fed exacerbated the situation in a classic screw-up). The market works in cycles... Things go up, and people invest and lend money... Then something happens and we all hit the top... That's when they talk about "bubbles bursting"... Then things turn downward, and people get scared. They lend less money and invest less, which causes the economy to suffer more. Everything goes into a downward spiral... Recession, depression... Eventually enough people start to think "This is as bad as it's going to get. Now's the time to invest while stuff is cheap", and it starts going back up. The purpose of the Fed is to lessen those cycles. Think lowering the amplitude of a waveform. When we get into that big boom and everything is shooting upward, they raise interest rates to slow things down a little. Then, when it turns downward and things start to get low, they drop interest rates to give everyone a boost. The goal is to make things a little closer to constant.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
all the fed has to to is enter that number into a computer and wire the newly created "money" to the treasury
That's the point I was making above, or somewhere in this thread (Starting to lose track). The Fed can't create money! Only the Treasury can. What you're missing is the concept of fractional reserve banking. I was going to type out an explanation about this, but Wikipedia has a better one. Check out this link under "Money Creation" and scroll down a little to the table. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_reserve_banking#Money_creation[^] It's a bit hard to explain... This isn't something the Fed does, but something all banks do... When you deposit money into a savings account, they're actually lending that money out to other people (Even though it's not really theirs). That's where your interest comes from. The Fed does the same thing... It lends money to the government that other banks deposited in it. It takes some time to understand, but the gist of it is that the Fed is NOT printing new money or just incrementing a value in their accounts. All of the money comes from somewhere else.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
I've been researching this subject for over a year now. Let's see how the fractional reserve process works, in the absence of a central bank. I set up a Rothbard Bank, and invest $1,000 of cash (whether gold or government paper does not matter here). Then I "lend out" $10,000 to someone, either for consumer spending or to invest in his business. How can I "lend out" far more than I have? Ahh, that's the magic of the "fraction" in the fractional reserve. I simply open up a checking account of $10,000 which I am happy to lend to Mr. Jones. Why does Jones borrow from me? Well, for one thing, I can charge a lower rate of interest than savers would. I don't have to save up the money myself, but simply can counterfeit it out of thin air. (In the nineteenth century, I would have been able to issue bank notes, but the Federal Reserve now monopolizes note issues.) Since demand deposits at the Rothbard Bank function as equivalent to cash, the nation's money supply has just, by magic, increased by $10,000. The inflationary, counterfeiting process is under way.
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No. Because too many of the people in that party are just effing crazy. Seriously. You want me to take your party seriously, fix it. Get rid of the whack jobs spouting nonsense about gov't conspiracies, how we should fix the system by getting trusting you over people that are "corrupt" and people unwilling to show the powers that be that they are serious. Ron Paul ran, I was hoping he'd do better. But I am not joining a bunch of whack jobs, wingnuts and dingbats. I've got a wife I love dearly a kid to raise and none of you convince me they will be better off in your world than the current PoS one. I'm done with this silliness. I have stuff to do this weekend involving fingerpaints, playdoh and lots and lots of fun. Who knows, I might even use those things to play games with the kid.
Imagine being in your nice comfortable boat on the river, you hear a faint white-noise but you think its just in your head and disregard it. You go twiddling around watching your favorite ballgame as you puff away on a nice cigar with your bottle of liqueur next to you. You hear it get louder and louder so you flip your TV to the yuppie-cool mainstream news station and watch the infobabe give her report. She is telling you that the crazies are talking about an upcoming catastrophe and that it doesn't exist. She has shiny lip gloss and cleavage so you believe her. Then she goes on to say its time to sacrifice your livelihood for the planet, you smile with joy because she is looking at you with her doey eyes. Some time later you notice you are going just a little bit faster, and the white-noise is louder than ever, you laugh and say "What a bunch of ignorant BS!" while you lay back down to think about how you want to "save the planet" with the infobabe. Then suddenly you start accelerating really fast and the white-noise becomes unbearably loud. You crap your pants and fall to your demise.
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Well, the problem with the free market economy is the naturally-occurring "boom and bust" cycle. This was what sparked the Great Depression (Though admittedly, the Fed exacerbated the situation in a classic screw-up). The market works in cycles... Things go up, and people invest and lend money... Then something happens and we all hit the top... That's when they talk about "bubbles bursting"... Then things turn downward, and people get scared. They lend less money and invest less, which causes the economy to suffer more. Everything goes into a downward spiral... Recession, depression... Eventually enough people start to think "This is as bad as it's going to get. Now's the time to invest while stuff is cheap", and it starts going back up. The purpose of the Fed is to lessen those cycles. Think lowering the amplitude of a waveform. When we get into that big boom and everything is shooting upward, they raise interest rates to slow things down a little. Then, when it turns downward and things start to get low, they drop interest rates to give everyone a boost. The goal is to make things a little closer to constant.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Well, the problem with the free market economy is the naturally-occurring "boom and bust" cycle.
The boom and bust cycle is manufactured by the central bankers. As we can see, we are in a severe bust after the bubbles created by the fed's loose lending and inflationary policies. now we have over 20% real unemployment.
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Well, the problem with the free market economy is the naturally-occurring "boom and bust" cycle. This was what sparked the Great Depression (Though admittedly, the Fed exacerbated the situation in a classic screw-up). The market works in cycles... Things go up, and people invest and lend money... Then something happens and we all hit the top... That's when they talk about "bubbles bursting"... Then things turn downward, and people get scared. They lend less money and invest less, which causes the economy to suffer more. Everything goes into a downward spiral... Recession, depression... Eventually enough people start to think "This is as bad as it's going to get. Now's the time to invest while stuff is cheap", and it starts going back up. The purpose of the Fed is to lessen those cycles. Think lowering the amplitude of a waveform. When we get into that big boom and everything is shooting upward, they raise interest rates to slow things down a little. Then, when it turns downward and things start to get low, they drop interest rates to give everyone a boost. The goal is to make things a little closer to constant.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Developer, Author (Guardians of Xen)
The dollar has lost over 95% of its value since the fed was established. That is almost the entire US economy and other countries economies that use the dollar, stolen over the period of 100 years. What could be done with many 20 trillion of dollars (in today's value) (World Bank states there over 40 trillion dollars in all the worlds currencies (but US dollar is dominate so I estimated half)) spent over the period of 100 years? That is about 500 million dollars spent EVERY DAY for 100 YEARS! Why would you think that stealing that much money from the people is okay? What was-andis that money being spent on? How is it being used to change society? What kind of damage has been inflicted upon the world with all of this misplaced monetary power.
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I've considered going into Law, but I don't have the patience for it and I could never do criminal defense without having to quietly murder a sizable fraction of my clients. But I doubt that's the education you're referring to. Between my understanding of how to write a difficult to dispute or misunderstand document, and how much history I've read and generally grasp. I get the feeling I know considerably more than you do about this entire thing. But since I have a different view than you, I'm apparently not educated. Have you tried actually proving me wrong rather than insulting me? I've posed a couple of questions which would allow you to do just that.