Shadow Government
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
I have always been Christian Right-Wing
Really ? You've not indicated that in the past.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The documentary is correct, conservative Christians and the like are being systematically demonized, prostituted, and persecuted.
Rubbish. Where ? In America ?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
They got us to accept this type of religious persecution with 9/11
Again, where is the correlation ? Do you mean the persecution of Muslims ?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Now they are shifting the definition of a terrorist to right-wingers, pro-lifers, gun owners, and Christians
Who is ? Remember, I've been to much of the USA. I've seen no persecution of Christians, even illiterate ones ( that is, ones who believe in a coming great tribulation, world government and antiChrist ). In fact, in Texas, you wouldn't fit in at all if you made clear that you were NOT a Christian, at least in the places I've been. Megachurches on every corner, hard to drive at certain times on sundays and not get caught in traffic jams of people leaving church. They don't appear persecuted to me.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
People have become so programmed using the word terrorist that it is like pushing a button on people to make this do what you want. Its a psychological operation.
And it's in your head. What I'm interested in discussing, is your Christianity ( so called ). I'd never have guessed from the way that you treat people here, that you claim to follow Christ. How is it manifested in your life ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
I'll do a response for this one.
Christian Graus wrote:
Where ? In America ?
I'll go so far as to agree with CSS on the fact that they're being demonized (not persecuted). Anyone that subscribes to a religion is called insane or stupid, something of that nature. In America, and any western land.
Christian Graus wrote:
Again, where is the correlation ? Do you mean the persecution of Muslims ?
I could believe this, but I don't know where he was going with this.
Christian Graus wrote:
CaptainSeeSharp wrote: Now they are shifting the definition of a terrorist to right-wingers, pro-lifers, gun owners, and Christians Who is ?
"Liberals". Boy, has that word got screwed up over the past fifty years.
Christian Graus wrote:
CaptainSeeSharp wrote: People have become so programmed using the word terrorist that it is like pushing a button on people to make this do what you want. Its a psychological operation. And it's in your head.
No, I'd agree with CSS on this one. Terrorism is a dirty word, of course, and always has been. But it's thrown around so easily that it's just turning into a namecalling. Just like "right-wing extremist". They're just general words that mean nothing after some time.
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I'll do a response for this one.
Christian Graus wrote:
Where ? In America ?
I'll go so far as to agree with CSS on the fact that they're being demonized (not persecuted). Anyone that subscribes to a religion is called insane or stupid, something of that nature. In America, and any western land.
Christian Graus wrote:
Again, where is the correlation ? Do you mean the persecution of Muslims ?
I could believe this, but I don't know where he was going with this.
Christian Graus wrote:
CaptainSeeSharp wrote: Now they are shifting the definition of a terrorist to right-wingers, pro-lifers, gun owners, and Christians Who is ?
"Liberals". Boy, has that word got screwed up over the past fifty years.
Christian Graus wrote:
CaptainSeeSharp wrote: People have become so programmed using the word terrorist that it is like pushing a button on people to make this do what you want. Its a psychological operation. And it's in your head.
No, I'd agree with CSS on this one. Terrorism is a dirty word, of course, and always has been. But it's thrown around so easily that it's just turning into a namecalling. Just like "right-wing extremist". They're just general words that mean nothing after some time.
josda1000 wrote:
'll go so far as to agree with CSS on the fact that they're being demonized (not persecuted). Anyone that subscribes to a religion is called insane or stupid, something of that nature. In America, and any western land.
Fixed that for ya... Speaking as an atheist, we're all called insane or stupid at one time or another, whether we subscribe to a religion or not. It's lessened a bit in recent years, or maybe people are just a little too PC to say what they're thinking, but it's pretty obvious that many religious types don't think very highly of us non-religious folk. I found it especially amusing when people used to tell me that I was going to go to hell for my lack of belief. It was a great setup for a joke... "You mean I'm going to stay in this [town|school|*] forever!?"
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)
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josda1000 wrote:
'll go so far as to agree with CSS on the fact that they're being demonized (not persecuted). Anyone that subscribes to a religion is called insane or stupid, something of that nature. In America, and any western land.
Fixed that for ya... Speaking as an atheist, we're all called insane or stupid at one time or another, whether we subscribe to a religion or not. It's lessened a bit in recent years, or maybe people are just a little too PC to say what they're thinking, but it's pretty obvious that many religious types don't think very highly of us non-religious folk. I found it especially amusing when people used to tell me that I was going to go to hell for my lack of belief. It was a great setup for a joke... "You mean I'm going to stay in this [town|school|*] forever!?"
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)
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I'll do a response for this one.
Christian Graus wrote:
Where ? In America ?
I'll go so far as to agree with CSS on the fact that they're being demonized (not persecuted). Anyone that subscribes to a religion is called insane or stupid, something of that nature. In America, and any western land.
Christian Graus wrote:
Again, where is the correlation ? Do you mean the persecution of Muslims ?
I could believe this, but I don't know where he was going with this.
Christian Graus wrote:
CaptainSeeSharp wrote: Now they are shifting the definition of a terrorist to right-wingers, pro-lifers, gun owners, and Christians Who is ?
"Liberals". Boy, has that word got screwed up over the past fifty years.
Christian Graus wrote:
CaptainSeeSharp wrote: People have become so programmed using the word terrorist that it is like pushing a button on people to make this do what you want. Its a psychological operation. And it's in your head.
No, I'd agree with CSS on this one. Terrorism is a dirty word, of course, and always has been. But it's thrown around so easily that it's just turning into a namecalling. Just like "right-wing extremist". They're just general words that mean nothing after some time.
josda1000 wrote:
I'll go so far as to agree with CSS on the fact that they're being demonized (not persecuted). Anyone that subscribes to a religion is called insane or stupid, something of that nature. In America, and any western land.
I know what you're trying to say, but this still bugs me. Let's take mainstream Christian belief for a second: The invisible man in the sky loves me. Loosely, as until recently heaven was supposed to be in the sky(according to belief if not the actual texts it's based on). Now, if this wasn't religion it would be called a delusion wouldn't it? When the beliefs in question require specific exemption to not be a psychiatric condition I'd have to say it's rather hard to paint them as being insane, it's the definition. No matter how much hand waving you do, it still requires a specific exemption. Why exactly people can see that and not ask the same question themselves I don't really get it.
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josda1000 wrote:
I'll go so far as to agree with CSS on the fact that they're being demonized (not persecuted). Anyone that subscribes to a religion is called insane or stupid, something of that nature. In America, and any western land.
I know what you're trying to say, but this still bugs me. Let's take mainstream Christian belief for a second: The invisible man in the sky loves me. Loosely, as until recently heaven was supposed to be in the sky(according to belief if not the actual texts it's based on). Now, if this wasn't religion it would be called a delusion wouldn't it? When the beliefs in question require specific exemption to not be a psychiatric condition I'd have to say it's rather hard to paint them as being insane, it's the definition. No matter how much hand waving you do, it still requires a specific exemption. Why exactly people can see that and not ask the same question themselves I don't really get it.
Ok, I have to quote St. George...... Carlin. (Being an atheist, I don't have any "saints," so I just attribute the title to my favorite stand-up comedians, dead or living). "Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man up there in sky! And he watches everything you do and everything you say... And he has a special list of ten things he does NOT want you to do... And if you do ANY of these things, he has a special place for you, full of fire and brimstone where you'll BURN and SUFFER in PAIN for ALL ETERNITY!!! ....... But he loves you! He loves you and he NEEDS MONEY! All powerful, all knowing, all seeing, but just can't seem to handle money!" (From memory, so not completely accurate - Man, if I didn't memorize so many comedy acts, I'd have a lot more room in my head for less important things)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)
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josda1000 wrote:
I'll go so far as to agree with CSS on the fact that they're being demonized (not persecuted). Anyone that subscribes to a religion is called insane or stupid, something of that nature. In America, and any western land.
I know what you're trying to say, but this still bugs me. Let's take mainstream Christian belief for a second: The invisible man in the sky loves me. Loosely, as until recently heaven was supposed to be in the sky(according to belief if not the actual texts it's based on). Now, if this wasn't religion it would be called a delusion wouldn't it? When the beliefs in question require specific exemption to not be a psychiatric condition I'd have to say it's rather hard to paint them as being insane, it's the definition. No matter how much hand waving you do, it still requires a specific exemption. Why exactly people can see that and not ask the same question themselves I don't really get it.
Look I'm not here to debate religion. Except I suppose we often do debate religion here, though it's called "socialism". Socialism never worked, and capitalism does. Too bad we have "corporatism" in the western world, not so much capitalism. Anyway... Yes, people believe in a man in the clouds. I don't. I believe in people.
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Look I'm not here to debate religion. Except I suppose we often do debate religion here, though it's called "socialism". Socialism never worked, and capitalism does. Too bad we have "corporatism" in the western world, not so much capitalism. Anyway... Yes, people believe in a man in the clouds. I don't. I believe in people.
Just pegging that point about them being labeled insane more so than anything else. Capitalism doesn't work any better than socialism, as it has the same failing. The key so far had been balancing between the two, keeping the greedy idiots in check while attempting to keep the nation viable for economic growth while ensuring a basic decent standard of living for the average person. Every time we let the capitalists out of the bag(or they find a way out on their own) they wind up going nuts and cause another economic implosion before anyone figures out what they're doing (including themselves generally). The problem with capitalism is that it's only motivator is money, it takes no account for human decency, or even law when it gets it's way long enough. The problem with socialism is that it forgets humans are greedy and generally don't have any drive to help others. So, you go along the lines of "Ok you greedy turd, you've exploited these people over here so we're taking a fraction of the money you made off them to assist them." and things generally work reasonably well. Fewer starving workers, fewer food riots, and generally less major disruptions of economic ability. No human society/economic system really works, just the ones that fail the least. Unless of course monetary gain is the only measure, in which case yes, capitalism generally wins, though corporatism could probably hand it it's ass if we went back to a colonial style of it.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The documentary is correct, conservative Christians and the like are being systematically demonized, prostituted, and persecuted.
Oh those poor people who only wish to make everyone live by their rules despite what constitutional protections there may be for those of us who think you're believing a two millenia old con job. But honestly, look at this, they're prostituting themselves, they're crying foul when they are stopped at stomping on the rights of others, and then call persecution when someone says happy holidays to them. Look into their own damn history, persecution should not be something they call out about when they don't get their way, the early followers were tossed to lions, THAT is persecution. And feel free to claim this is all a media representation of them, but I have piles of quotes from individuals who are living embodiments of this idiotic sentiment.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Now they are shifting the definition of a terrorist to right-wingers, pro-lifers, gun owners, and Christians.
If we look into our history, we have far more attacks by those people than muslims or pretty much any other group. Even in the last two decades. If you go back further they're about the only ones.
Oh but islam is a religion of peace right?
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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Just pegging that point about them being labeled insane more so than anything else. Capitalism doesn't work any better than socialism, as it has the same failing. The key so far had been balancing between the two, keeping the greedy idiots in check while attempting to keep the nation viable for economic growth while ensuring a basic decent standard of living for the average person. Every time we let the capitalists out of the bag(or they find a way out on their own) they wind up going nuts and cause another economic implosion before anyone figures out what they're doing (including themselves generally). The problem with capitalism is that it's only motivator is money, it takes no account for human decency, or even law when it gets it's way long enough. The problem with socialism is that it forgets humans are greedy and generally don't have any drive to help others. So, you go along the lines of "Ok you greedy turd, you've exploited these people over here so we're taking a fraction of the money you made off them to assist them." and things generally work reasonably well. Fewer starving workers, fewer food riots, and generally less major disruptions of economic ability. No human society/economic system really works, just the ones that fail the least. Unless of course monetary gain is the only measure, in which case yes, capitalism generally wins, though corporatism could probably hand it it's ass if we went back to a colonial style of it.
Socialism is just a way for the powerful minority to grab power, making everyone dependent on the government, and centrally plan the economy.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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Socialism is just a way for the powerful minority to grab power, making everyone dependent on the government, and centrally plan the economy.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
And capitalism is just a way for the largest corporations to grab power, making everyone slaves to their profit margin, and consolidate into monopolies and centrally plan the economy. When are you going to get it through your head that neither system is perfect, and that it takes a combination of both to achieve any kind of decent society?
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)
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Oh but islam is a religion of peace right?
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
Private WeeParts: Now they are shifting the definition of a terrorist to right-wingers, pro-lifers, gun owners, and Christians. Distind: If we look into our history, we have far more attacks by those people than muslims or pretty much any other group. Even in the last two decades. If you go back further they're about the only ones. Private WeeParts: Oh but islam is a religion of peace right? And today, children, you learned what a non sequitur is.
Bob Emmett @ Ynys Thanatos
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And capitalism is just a way for the largest corporations to grab power, making everyone slaves to their profit margin, and consolidate into monopolies and centrally plan the economy. When are you going to get it through your head that neither system is perfect, and that it takes a combination of both to achieve any kind of decent society?
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)
Ian Shlasko wrote:
And capitalism is just a way for the largest corporations to grab power
Government hold power, not corporations. However with our corrupt government, corporations can buy politicians and seize power by having the corrupt government write legislation that allows it. We live in a bankrupt socialist welfare/warfare internationally owned Corporatocracy. It isn't about left vs right, socialism vs capitalism, this is about liberty vs tyranny.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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Private WeeParts: Now they are shifting the definition of a terrorist to right-wingers, pro-lifers, gun owners, and Christians. Distind: If we look into our history, we have far more attacks by those people than muslims or pretty much any other group. Even in the last two decades. If you go back further they're about the only ones. Private WeeParts: Oh but islam is a religion of peace right? And today, children, you learned what a non sequitur is.
Bob Emmett @ Ynys Thanatos
Aren't pronouns fun?
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)
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Private WeeParts: Now they are shifting the definition of a terrorist to right-wingers, pro-lifers, gun owners, and Christians. Distind: If we look into our history, we have far more attacks by those people than muslims or pretty much any other group. Even in the last two decades. If you go back further they're about the only ones. Private WeeParts: Oh but islam is a religion of peace right? And today, children, you learned what a non sequitur is.
Bob Emmett @ Ynys Thanatos
You believe he actually said something worth reading? He is the type of people that ruthlessly demonize Christians while at the same time say they are more radical that muslims, inject some racism, and do it with great disdain.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
And capitalism is just a way for the largest corporations to grab power
Government hold power, not corporations. However with our corrupt government, corporations can buy politicians and seize power by having the corrupt government write legislation that allows it. We live in a bankrupt socialist welfare/warfare internationally owned Corporatocracy. It isn't about left vs right, socialism vs capitalism, this is about liberty vs tyranny.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
No, in TRUE capitalism, the economy is unregulated, which means the government effectively has no power. What we have now is NOT true capitalism, but rather a mix of capitalism and socialism. You might be better at this whole "debate" thing if you actually understood your own buzzwords.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
It isn't about left vs right, socialism vs capitalism, this is about liberty vs tyranny.
Then why are you complaining about socialism, if this isn't about socialism?
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)
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No, in TRUE capitalism, the economy is unregulated, which means the government effectively has no power. What we have now is NOT true capitalism, but rather a mix of capitalism and socialism. You might be better at this whole "debate" thing if you actually understood your own buzzwords.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
It isn't about left vs right, socialism vs capitalism, this is about liberty vs tyranny.
Then why are you complaining about socialism, if this isn't about socialism?
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)
Ian Shlasko wrote:
the economy is unregulated, which means the government effectively has no power.
The economy is not unregulated. Property rights laws and standard legislation force business to obey the law and respect the rights and property of others. Such as laws against false advertising, collusion, and fraud and so many others. These basic standard laws are enforced just like the rest, basic laws of property rights and personal liberty.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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Christian Graus wrote:
I told you long ago that your talk of a new world order was a step towards becoming part of the Christian Right Wing, and believing in the antichrist and the tribulation. You laughed at me. Now it seems I am proven right.
I have always been Christian Right-Wing. Tell me what is wrong with that? The documentary is correct, conservative Christians and the like are being systematically demonized, prostituted, and persecuted. They got us to accept this type of religious persecution with 9/11. Now they are shifting the definition of a terrorist to right-wingers, pro-lifers, gun owners, and Christians. People have become so programmed using the word terrorist that it is like pushing a button on people to make this do what you want. Its a psychological operation. Nothing about those types should bring up images of toothless radicals or whatever the image implanted into everybody through years of propaganda.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Now they are shifting the definition of a terrorist to right-wingers, pro-lifers, gun owners, and Christians.
No 'they' are not. 'They' are merely reminding 'their' law enforcement agencies that there is a radical 'right' as well as a radical 'left'; and that the 'right' is just as capable of terrorist acts as the 'left'. BTW: You missed military veterans from your list.
Bob Emmett @ Ynys Thanatos
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Now they are shifting the definition of a terrorist to right-wingers, pro-lifers, gun owners, and Christians.
No 'they' are not. 'They' are merely reminding 'their' law enforcement agencies that there is a radical 'right' as well as a radical 'left'; and that the 'right' is just as capable of terrorist acts as the 'left'. BTW: You missed military veterans from your list.
Bob Emmett @ Ynys Thanatos
You are stuck in the left-right paradigm.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
the economy is unregulated, which means the government effectively has no power.
The economy is not unregulated. Property rights laws and standard legislation force business to obey the law and respect the rights and property of others. Such as laws against false advertising, collusion, and fraud and so many others. These basic standard laws are enforced just like the rest, basic laws of property rights and personal liberty.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The economy is not unregulated. Property rights laws and standard legislation force business to obey the law and respect the rights and property of others. Such as laws against false advertising, collusion, and fraud and so many others. These basic standard laws are enforced just like the rest, basic laws of property rights and personal liberty.
Which happens to be... regulation. If you hold them to laws, you ARE regulating them. Standard legislation is socialism. Pure Capitalism does not have any such restrictions. It was the case in the early industrial revolution. Congrats. You fail.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
the economy is unregulated, which means the government effectively has no power.
The economy is not unregulated. Property rights laws and standard legislation force business to obey the law and respect the rights and property of others. Such as laws against false advertising, collusion, and fraud and so many others. These basic standard laws are enforced just like the rest, basic laws of property rights and personal liberty.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The economy is not unregulated. Property rights laws and standard legislation force business to obey the law and respect the rights and property of others. Such as laws against false advertising, collusion, and fraud and so many others. These basic standard laws are enforced just like the rest, basic laws of property rights and personal liberty.
Except that in true capitalism, the government does NOT do ANY type of wage or price control. No minimum wage, for one. Minimum wage is a socialistic element. So on the low end, you'll have slave labor, and on the high end, you'll have filthy rich corporate executives (Just like we have now, but moreso). True capitalism tends toward larger and larger companies, which eventually results in monopolies. At that point, you either accept government regulation (Government-operated companies = Socialism), forced government intervention by way of splitting the company (More socialism), or just let them control the entire industry (Capitalistic slavery). In other words, true capitalism is just as dangerous as true socialism.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in? Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)