Interesting book
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I just finished 'the third chimpanzee' by Jared Diamond. One interesting point he raises, is that we're not likely to see a flying saucer any time soon. Why ? Because we don't have them yet, but we have the ability to send radio signals into space, which we managed to invent pretty much at the same time that we invented ways to kill all life on the planet, as well as pushing towards the limit of our planet to support us as a species. So, aliens who became intelligent, probably wiped themselves out before they got flying saucers. He also pointed out that this is a good thing - humans never act as kindly benefactors to lesser species, which is how we'd have to appear to aliens. He also talks about overpopulation, apparently we use 40% of the sun's energy already. Which leaves little room for population growth, obviously.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
He also talks about overpopulation, apparently we use 40% of the sun's energy already.
I would be remarkably interested in how that was calculated if they have a footnote on it, given that I heard a number of .5% change in solar radiation hitting earth caused the little ice age.
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Christian Graus wrote:
He also talks about overpopulation, apparently we use 40% of the sun's energy already.
I would be remarkably interested in how that was calculated if they have a footnote on it, given that I heard a number of .5% change in solar radiation hitting earth caused the little ice age.
Yes, that is one thing I intend on tracking down in the footnotes, I've only just finished the book, and there's a section added to the paperback I want to read first. I have a fascinating book on the LIA, it's very interesting stuff. I really thought that most sunlight was wasted. What about sunlight hitting the deserts ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Yes, that is one thing I intend on tracking down in the footnotes, I've only just finished the book, and there's a section added to the paperback I want to read first. I have a fascinating book on the LIA, it's very interesting stuff. I really thought that most sunlight was wasted. What about sunlight hitting the deserts ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Yea, almost exactly what I was thinking. As far as I'm aware the majority of solar radiation goes to heating the planet rather than any consumable energy that I can come up with. I mean plants, vitamin D, the occasional drying process... that's about it.
Well, I intend to call him on it, so I'll LYK what I find. I found his comment on aliens most amusing tho.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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I just finished 'the third chimpanzee' by Jared Diamond. One interesting point he raises, is that we're not likely to see a flying saucer any time soon. Why ? Because we don't have them yet, but we have the ability to send radio signals into space, which we managed to invent pretty much at the same time that we invented ways to kill all life on the planet, as well as pushing towards the limit of our planet to support us as a species. So, aliens who became intelligent, probably wiped themselves out before they got flying saucers. He also pointed out that this is a good thing - humans never act as kindly benefactors to lesser species, which is how we'd have to appear to aliens. He also talks about overpopulation, apparently we use 40% of the sun's energy already. Which leaves little room for population growth, obviously.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
I haven't read the book, so maybe I'm not giving it the credit it deserves, but from your description it sounds like his concept of "aliens" is like something out of Star Trek where the "alien civilization" is looks rather suspiciously like the Roman Empire or Chicago circa 1920. I think the one thing we could be fairly certain about with any alien civilization is that it would be "alien".
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I haven't read the book, so maybe I'm not giving it the credit it deserves, but from your description it sounds like his concept of "aliens" is like something out of Star Trek where the "alien civilization" is looks rather suspiciously like the Roman Empire or Chicago circa 1920. I think the one thing we could be fairly certain about with any alien civilization is that it would be "alien".
It's a minor point in the book, I just found it amusing. His claim is entirely that any life that exists, probably is formed and shaped by similar pressures to the ones on earth. No matter if they are carbon based or not, intelligence is still likely to take similar forms. Why would an alien be motivated to come here and make our lives better ? Why not just eat us ? How do we treat animals that we know are smart here on earth ? Like I said, it's a passing point in the book, not a central platform. The book contains seeds for his better books, but it was good in it's own right.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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It's a minor point in the book, I just found it amusing. His claim is entirely that any life that exists, probably is formed and shaped by similar pressures to the ones on earth. No matter if they are carbon based or not, intelligence is still likely to take similar forms. Why would an alien be motivated to come here and make our lives better ? Why not just eat us ? How do we treat animals that we know are smart here on earth ? Like I said, it's a passing point in the book, not a central platform. The book contains seeds for his better books, but it was good in it's own right.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
I think there's some truth to the idea that you can get a handle on how enlightened a society/civilization is by the way it treats other creatures and the environment. If we take that as a given, then if this alien civilization is more advanced then we are, we may have some hope of beng treated a little better than cattle. If not, well... what goes around comes around, know what I mean? :^)
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
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I think there's some truth to the idea that you can get a handle on how enlightened a society/civilization is by the way it treats other creatures and the environment. If we take that as a given, then if this alien civilization is more advanced then we are, we may have some hope of beng treated a little better than cattle. If not, well... what goes around comes around, know what I mean? :^)
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
I guess the lesson of history is that the more warlike ones are far more likely to benefit from natural selection than ones who like to give away their resources.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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I guess the lesson of history is that the more warlike ones are far more likely to benefit from natural selection than ones who like to give away their resources.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Sad but true; but doesn't that lesson of history contradict the ideals that we would, in our better moments, aspire to? I mean turning the other cheek is a great concept, but what if history indicates that this is little short of suicide? Maybe this is best pondered with a stiff belt of Scotch. :-D
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
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Sad but true; but doesn't that lesson of history contradict the ideals that we would, in our better moments, aspire to? I mean turning the other cheek is a great concept, but what if history indicates that this is little short of suicide? Maybe this is best pondered with a stiff belt of Scotch. :-D
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
LunaticFringe wrote:
Sad but true; but doesn't that lesson of history contradict the ideals that we would, in our better moments, aspire to?
I suspect we've started to aspire to them since we've moved beyond having to rely on our competitive advantage to survive, and we still only aspire to them when it suits us.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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LunaticFringe wrote:
Sad but true; but doesn't that lesson of history contradict the ideals that we would, in our better moments, aspire to?
I suspect we've started to aspire to them since we've moved beyond having to rely on our competitive advantage to survive, and we still only aspire to them when it suits us.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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What!?! Surely you don't mean to say that beneath the veneer of civilization, we are, at heart, just another animal? ;) :-D
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
Well, I don't necessarily believe that, insofar as I don't believe we just accidentally evolved, because I am a Christian, but that's the core of the book, yes.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Well, I don't necessarily believe that, insofar as I don't believe we just accidentally evolved, because I am a Christian, but that's the core of the book, yes.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, I don't necessarily believe that, insofar as I don't believe we just accidentally evolved, because I am a Christian, but that's the core of the book, yes.
I know. I was just seeing how far down that road you'd go. :)
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
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Christian Graus wrote:
Well, I don't necessarily believe that, insofar as I don't believe we just accidentally evolved, because I am a Christian, but that's the core of the book, yes.
I know. I was just seeing how far down that road you'd go. :)
L u n a t i c F r i n g e
*grin* well, I am still interested in the point of view, and some of the things he talks about, like natural selection, just obviously do happen. As for the rest, I am still interested in the theory, even if I don't agree with it 100%.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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I haven't read the book, so maybe I'm not giving it the credit it deserves, but from your description it sounds like his concept of "aliens" is like something out of Star Trek where the "alien civilization" is looks rather suspiciously like the Roman Empire or Chicago circa 1920. I think the one thing we could be fairly certain about with any alien civilization is that it would be "alien".
If there were aliens and they had vehicles capable of getting here and were belligerent we'd already be dead. They're not waiting for us to catch up to make it a fair fight. Which means that either there are no aliens capable of getting here, they are here and we're kinda interesting and that's it, they haven't found us yet, they have found us and don't care or they have found us but there is nothing here for them. I'm sure there are others.
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I just finished 'the third chimpanzee' by Jared Diamond. One interesting point he raises, is that we're not likely to see a flying saucer any time soon. Why ? Because we don't have them yet, but we have the ability to send radio signals into space, which we managed to invent pretty much at the same time that we invented ways to kill all life on the planet, as well as pushing towards the limit of our planet to support us as a species. So, aliens who became intelligent, probably wiped themselves out before they got flying saucers. He also pointed out that this is a good thing - humans never act as kindly benefactors to lesser species, which is how we'd have to appear to aliens. He also talks about overpopulation, apparently we use 40% of the sun's energy already. Which leaves little room for population growth, obviously.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
we invented ways to kill all life on the planet
Name those ways.
Christian Graus wrote:
the limit of our planet to support us as a species
And the proof that we are near that limit is what?
Christian Graus wrote:
humans never act as kindly benefactors to lesser species
This is patently untrue. Humans are the ONLY species that will care for another. Sounds like a load of crap to me. Resource stress is the one thing most likely to cause a speciers to seek new habitats. It is precisely because man will become too big for the planet thwt we will search out new ones. As for the population scare, this is so old its first version was probably written in Aramaic. In fact western populations are stable, and have been for decades. The only increases are due to immigraiton. The third world will go the same way as it industrialises, loosing the cultural traditions and ignorance that lead to population excesses. Basicaly, its a rosy future for man and the planet. Always was, always will be. The only dark cloud is mans fear. Always was. Always will be.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
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Christian Graus wrote:
we invented ways to kill all life on the planet
Name those ways.
Christian Graus wrote:
the limit of our planet to support us as a species
And the proof that we are near that limit is what?
Christian Graus wrote:
humans never act as kindly benefactors to lesser species
This is patently untrue. Humans are the ONLY species that will care for another. Sounds like a load of crap to me. Resource stress is the one thing most likely to cause a speciers to seek new habitats. It is precisely because man will become too big for the planet thwt we will search out new ones. As for the population scare, this is so old its first version was probably written in Aramaic. In fact western populations are stable, and have been for decades. The only increases are due to immigraiton. The third world will go the same way as it industrialises, loosing the cultural traditions and ignorance that lead to population excesses. Basicaly, its a rosy future for man and the planet. Always was, always will be. The only dark cloud is mans fear. Always was. Always will be.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription
fat_boy wrote:
Name those ways.
Nuclear weapons are the obvious one.
fat_boy wrote:
And the proof that we are near that limit is what?
Acceleration of extinctions, signs that we're at peak oil, when oil is fundamental to the ways we generate our food, depleted supplies of many foods from the ocean, etc.
fat_boy wrote:
This is patently untrue. Humans are the ONLY species that will care for another.
OK, I guess we're nice to dogs and cats when it suits us.
fat_boy wrote:
Resource stress is the one thing most likely to cause a speciers to seek new habitats. It is precisely because man will become too big for the planet thwt we will search out new ones.
That is kind of true, except there's no options for us to move to.
fat_boy wrote:
In fact western populations are stable, and have been for decades. The only increases are due to immigraiton. The third world will go the same way as it industrialises, loosing the cultural traditions and ignorance that lead to population excesses.
That is very possible, but not guarenteed. In the meantime, a lot of Chinese and Indians are demanding first world lifestyles, which the planet is unlikely to easily support.
fat_boy wrote:
Basicaly, its a rosy future for man and the planet. Always was, always will be. The only dark cloud is mans fear. Always was. Always will be.
I can see your ass, but your head appears to be below the sand.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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fat_boy wrote:
Name those ways.
Nuclear weapons are the obvious one.
fat_boy wrote:
And the proof that we are near that limit is what?
Acceleration of extinctions, signs that we're at peak oil, when oil is fundamental to the ways we generate our food, depleted supplies of many foods from the ocean, etc.
fat_boy wrote:
This is patently untrue. Humans are the ONLY species that will care for another.
OK, I guess we're nice to dogs and cats when it suits us.
fat_boy wrote:
Resource stress is the one thing most likely to cause a speciers to seek new habitats. It is precisely because man will become too big for the planet thwt we will search out new ones.
That is kind of true, except there's no options for us to move to.
fat_boy wrote:
In fact western populations are stable, and have been for decades. The only increases are due to immigraiton. The third world will go the same way as it industrialises, loosing the cultural traditions and ignorance that lead to population excesses.
That is very possible, but not guarenteed. In the meantime, a lot of Chinese and Indians are demanding first world lifestyles, which the planet is unlikely to easily support.
fat_boy wrote:
Basicaly, its a rosy future for man and the planet. Always was, always will be. The only dark cloud is mans fear. Always was. Always will be.
I can see your ass, but your head appears to be below the sand.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Nuclear weapons are the obvious one.
Right, so thats not gojng to wipe out all life is it, Not by a very very long way.
Christian Graus wrote:
Acceleration of extinctions, signs that we're at peak oil, when oil is fundamental to the ways we generate our food, depleted supplies of many foods from the ocean, etc
Energy wise, man will get it elsewhere as soon as oil becomes too scarce. As for food there is plenty of scope yet. Even in Europe we have vasyt areas set aside. Food production is so effcient we can manage on less land than we ever used to. There is a lot of the world still producing food in medieval ways. When industrialised we could probably produce anough food for 10 times the earths current population. Especially f we put more plant food (CO2) on the air.
Christian Graus wrote:
That is kind of true, except there's no options for us to move to.
Thats what some said when Columbus went west. Man is cinventive. We just dont know whats out there yet. Could we terra form Mars? I bet we will give it a go some time.
Christian Graus wrote:
lot of Chinese and Indians are demanding first world lifestyles, which the planet is unlikely to easily support.
The funny thing about industrialised life styles is that they seeme to automatically reduce the population. Women with carees, better education, more freedom. exposure to oestrogenic compounds found in plastics. All of these seem to end up at 2.2 kids per couple. Make a reduction for accidents and unmarieds and you get a natural stability. Its very interesting.
Christian Graus wrote:
I can see your ass, but your head appears to be below the sand.
I have often noted that religious people take the point of view that man is inherently bad. I on the other hand think man is inherently good. As I stated. There is only one species that wil care for another, and that is man. There is only one place on earth the cat and dog will sleep together, and that is in the house of man. Man really is the best of life you know. We really do acchieve incredible things. We will acchieve even more amazing things in the future. Things that today we call impossible fiction.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Nuclear weapons are the obvious one.
Right, so thats not gojng to wipe out all life is it, Not by a very very long way.
Christian Graus wrote:
Acceleration of extinctions, signs that we're at peak oil, when oil is fundamental to the ways we generate our food, depleted supplies of many foods from the ocean, etc
Energy wise, man will get it elsewhere as soon as oil becomes too scarce. As for food there is plenty of scope yet. Even in Europe we have vasyt areas set aside. Food production is so effcient we can manage on less land than we ever used to. There is a lot of the world still producing food in medieval ways. When industrialised we could probably produce anough food for 10 times the earths current population. Especially f we put more plant food (CO2) on the air.
Christian Graus wrote:
That is kind of true, except there's no options for us to move to.
Thats what some said when Columbus went west. Man is cinventive. We just dont know whats out there yet. Could we terra form Mars? I bet we will give it a go some time.
Christian Graus wrote:
lot of Chinese and Indians are demanding first world lifestyles, which the planet is unlikely to easily support.
The funny thing about industrialised life styles is that they seeme to automatically reduce the population. Women with carees, better education, more freedom. exposure to oestrogenic compounds found in plastics. All of these seem to end up at 2.2 kids per couple. Make a reduction for accidents and unmarieds and you get a natural stability. Its very interesting.
Christian Graus wrote:
I can see your ass, but your head appears to be below the sand.
I have often noted that religious people take the point of view that man is inherently bad. I on the other hand think man is inherently good. As I stated. There is only one species that wil care for another, and that is man. There is only one place on earth the cat and dog will sleep together, and that is in the house of man. Man really is the best of life you know. We really do acchieve incredible things. We will acchieve even more amazing things in the future. Things that today we call impossible fiction.
fat_boy wrote:
Right, so thats not gojng to wipe out all life is it, Not by a very very long way.
You're claiming that nukes are incapable of killing life on this planet ? Based on that, and a scan to confirm that the rest of the post is based on similar ignorance, I'm stopping there.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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fat_boy wrote:
Name those ways.
Nuclear weapons are the obvious one.
fat_boy wrote:
And the proof that we are near that limit is what?
Acceleration of extinctions, signs that we're at peak oil, when oil is fundamental to the ways we generate our food, depleted supplies of many foods from the ocean, etc.
fat_boy wrote:
This is patently untrue. Humans are the ONLY species that will care for another.
OK, I guess we're nice to dogs and cats when it suits us.
fat_boy wrote:
Resource stress is the one thing most likely to cause a speciers to seek new habitats. It is precisely because man will become too big for the planet thwt we will search out new ones.
That is kind of true, except there's no options for us to move to.
fat_boy wrote:
In fact western populations are stable, and have been for decades. The only increases are due to immigraiton. The third world will go the same way as it industrialises, loosing the cultural traditions and ignorance that lead to population excesses.
That is very possible, but not guarenteed. In the meantime, a lot of Chinese and Indians are demanding first world lifestyles, which the planet is unlikely to easily support.
fat_boy wrote:
Basicaly, its a rosy future for man and the planet. Always was, always will be. The only dark cloud is mans fear. Always was. Always will be.
I can see your ass, but your head appears to be below the sand.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
OK, I guess we're nice to dogs and cats when it suits us.
Oh, and this is not true. Man will spontaneously care for amlost any species of animal that needs it. We raised a could of collared doves last year. I cut the branch off their nest was in. The parent doves wouldnt go near the nest after I had selotaped it to a neighbouring branch (really, doves are thick). Se we habd reared them till the y left one day. They were quite tame. When I was working in the office they would fly from the kitchen, down te corridor, to come and sit and peck at my keyboard as I was trying to work. They used to com and sit with us as we ate in the dining room too. Many many people are like this to animals. OK, more so the birds and mamals, caring for insects and reptiles isnt so well pracrticed, but Man does genuinely care for other species.
Morality is indistinguishable from social proscription