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  4. South Carolina Lawmaker Seeks to Ban Federal Currency

South Carolina Lawmaker Seeks to Ban Federal Currency

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  • C CaptainSeeSharp

    As the Palmetto Scoop first reported, Pitts, a Republican, introduced legislation this month banning "the unconstitutional substitution of Federal Reserve Notes for silver and gold coin" in South Carolina.[^] This guy is bright. This is what all states need to do. It's the Silver Bullet, the Golden Ticket to freedom, prosperity, and the downfall of corrupt big government. Their power comes from the control over our currency, and this is how you extinguish them.

    Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]

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    Lost User
    wrote on last edited by
    #8

    God, after all that fat_boy related idiocy, it's actually good to see you back... ;)

    L u n a t i c F r i n g e

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    • J josda1000

      Have you seen Georgia HB 430? Constitutional Tender Act. From what I understand they haven't voted on it or anything, but they've started talking about it.

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      CaptainSeeSharp
      wrote on last edited by
      #9

      josda1000 wrote:

      Have you seen Georgia HB 430? Constitutional Tender Act.

      Haven't seen it. I will give it a look.

      Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]

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      • I Ian Shlasko

        That's as far as it'll probably go, anyway... Whether you like it or not, the power to regulate currency falls squarely into the hands of the FEDERAL government, not the states. From CSS's linked article: As one expert told the Scoop, however, his bill would likely be ruled unconstitutional because it "violates a perfectly legal and Constitutional federal law, enacted pursuant to the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution, that federal reserve notes are legal tender for all debts public and private."

        Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
        Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)

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        CaptainSeeSharp
        wrote on last edited by
        #10

        Ian Shlasko wrote:

        Whether you like it or not, the power to regulate currency falls squarely into the hands of the FEDERAL government, not the states.

        Congress to be precise, and they only have the authority to coin money and regulate the value thereof. The Federal Reserve is not a federal entity, it is a private bank given ill gotten powers. The federal government is not legitimate, and its the states job to reform the confederation.

        Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]

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        • L Lost User

          God, after all that fat_boy related idiocy, it's actually good to see you back... ;)

          L u n a t i c F r i n g e

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          CaptainSeeSharp
          wrote on last edited by
          #11

          My modem died.

          Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]

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          • C CaptainSeeSharp

            My modem died.

            Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]

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            josda1000
            wrote on last edited by
            #12

            Cable or 52K?

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            • I Ian Shlasko

              That's as far as it'll probably go, anyway... Whether you like it or not, the power to regulate currency falls squarely into the hands of the FEDERAL government, not the states. From CSS's linked article: As one expert told the Scoop, however, his bill would likely be ruled unconstitutional because it "violates a perfectly legal and Constitutional federal law, enacted pursuant to the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution, that federal reserve notes are legal tender for all debts public and private."

              Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
              Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)

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              josda1000
              wrote on last edited by
              #13

              Ian Shlasko wrote:

              Whether you like it or not, the power to regulate currency falls squarely into the hands of the FEDERAL government, not the states.

              Actually, you're right. However, it's not completely accurate. Article I, Section 10: No state shall... coin Money... Make any Thing but gold and silver coin a tender in Payments of Debt. It does say that they can't make their own currency. But it also says that they can't make anything except gold and silver legal tender. Therefore, the Federal government is forcing the states to break a federal constitutional law. Therefore, the Fed is unlawful. It really is that simple.

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              • C CaptainSeeSharp

                My modem died.

                Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]

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                Lost User
                wrote on last edited by
                #14

                :laugh: Drag, dude! Well, good to see you. :)

                L u n a t i c F r i n g e

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                • J josda1000

                  Ian Shlasko wrote:

                  Whether you like it or not, the power to regulate currency falls squarely into the hands of the FEDERAL government, not the states.

                  Actually, you're right. However, it's not completely accurate. Article I, Section 10: No state shall... coin Money... Make any Thing but gold and silver coin a tender in Payments of Debt. It does say that they can't make their own currency. But it also says that they can't make anything except gold and silver legal tender. Therefore, the Federal government is forcing the states to break a federal constitutional law. Therefore, the Fed is unlawful. It really is that simple.

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                  Ian Shlasko
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #15

                  Article 1, Section 8: "Congress shall have power [...] To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;" In the Federal Reserve Act, they delegated this power to the Fed. See paragraph 2 of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondelegation_doctrine[^]. Article 1, Section 10 says that no STATE shall coin money or make anything but gold or silver a tender. Only the Federal government can do that.

                  Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
                  Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)

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                  • I Ian Shlasko

                    Article 1, Section 8: "Congress shall have power [...] To coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures;" In the Federal Reserve Act, they delegated this power to the Fed. See paragraph 2 of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondelegation_doctrine[^]. Article 1, Section 10 says that no STATE shall coin money or make anything but gold or silver a tender. Only the Federal government can do that.

                    Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
                    Author of Guardians of Xen (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novel)

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                    josda1000
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #16

                    Ian Shlasko wrote:

                    Article 1, Section 10 says that no STATE shall coin money or make anything but gold or silver a tender. Only the Federal government can do that.

                    That's what I said. The Federal government MUST make gold and silver coin tender, it's not they're ALLOWED to do so. They cannot emit bills of credit either, just as the states can't, for the very fact that the states are part of the federation, and if people must follow the law, then they cannot use any thing but gold and silver coin a tender in payments of debt. So, if the federal government emits bills of credit as opposed to gold and silver coin, they are forcing the states to break their own law. A side note: why the hell would the united states constitution say, "The Congress shall have Power... to fix the standard of weights and measures", if we don't have gold or silver coin as a tender in payments of debt? You do know about the Continental, the currency we used before our dollar of the united states, i assume. This is precisely why this power is set inside the constitution. The power to coin money is given to Congress. Coining money is specific: it pertains to gold and silver coin. It has nothing to do with bills of credit (FRNs). Banks make their own money (or, they used to, and currently the central bank does continue to do so, by "law"). But money is money is money, and we will have to eventually get back to the Constitution, because we can't go on like this forever.

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                    • J josda1000

                      Cable or 52K?

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                      Tim Craig
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #17

                      300 baud. :))

                      You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists.

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                      • J josda1000

                        Cable or 52K?

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                        CaptainSeeSharp
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #18

                        It's DSL.

                        Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]

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                        • J josda1000

                          Ian Shlasko wrote:

                          Article 1, Section 10 says that no STATE shall coin money or make anything but gold or silver a tender. Only the Federal government can do that.

                          That's what I said. The Federal government MUST make gold and silver coin tender, it's not they're ALLOWED to do so. They cannot emit bills of credit either, just as the states can't, for the very fact that the states are part of the federation, and if people must follow the law, then they cannot use any thing but gold and silver coin a tender in payments of debt. So, if the federal government emits bills of credit as opposed to gold and silver coin, they are forcing the states to break their own law. A side note: why the hell would the united states constitution say, "The Congress shall have Power... to fix the standard of weights and measures", if we don't have gold or silver coin as a tender in payments of debt? You do know about the Continental, the currency we used before our dollar of the united states, i assume. This is precisely why this power is set inside the constitution. The power to coin money is given to Congress. Coining money is specific: it pertains to gold and silver coin. It has nothing to do with bills of credit (FRNs). Banks make their own money (or, they used to, and currently the central bank does continue to do so, by "law"). But money is money is money, and we will have to eventually get back to the Constitution, because we can't go on like this forever.

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                          Ian Shlasko
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #19

                          josda1000 wrote:

                          The Federal government MUST make gold and silver coin tender

                          Where does it say that? It says the states can't "make anything but gold and silver a tender." As in, the states are not allowed to create their own currency. They can't print their own money, and they can't suddenly decree that nuts and bolts are now legal tender. It makes an exception for gold and silver, saying that those two metals CAN be used as currency if the state so wishes. In our case, the federal government has made FRNs a tender, and the states just use them.

                          josda1000 wrote:

                          A side note: why the hell would the united states constitution say, "The Congress shall have Power... to fix the standard of weights and measures", if we don't have gold or silver coin as a tender in payments of debt? You do know about the Continental, the currency we used before our dollar of the united states, i assume. This is precisely why this power is set inside the constitution.

                          Because if we WERE to use a metal-backed currency, the government would need the power to define its value in terms of that metal. The founding fathers were making sure this was possible, but not requiring it to be so. I think they were smart enough to know that they couldn't foresee the future, so only put what CAN be done, not what MUST be done.

                          josda1000 wrote:

                          The power to coin money is given to Congress. Coining money is specific: it pertains to gold and silver coin. It has nothing to do with bills of credit

                          Assuming you're not trying to differentiate between creating metal coins, and printing paper currency ("coining" vs "minting"), and interpret it, as I do, as the power to "create money." What defines what is and isn't money? To use a fictional example, there's a bit in Hitchhiker's Guide where the Golgafrinchans adopt the leaf (As in, leaves from trees) as legal tender. It's a silly example, but technically that's as valid as selecting gold or silver to be legal tender (As valid, not as intelligent). Money is a medium of exchange... Something that people agree have a certain value. It can be metal, leaves, pieces of paper, human skulls, or whatever people want, as long as they agree on its value. It's just a means of barter. In our case, (nearly) all of us believe that FRNs have a certain (declining) value, so it's suitable to use as currency. In thi

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                          • I Ian Shlasko

                            josda1000 wrote:

                            The Federal government MUST make gold and silver coin tender

                            Where does it say that? It says the states can't "make anything but gold and silver a tender." As in, the states are not allowed to create their own currency. They can't print their own money, and they can't suddenly decree that nuts and bolts are now legal tender. It makes an exception for gold and silver, saying that those two metals CAN be used as currency if the state so wishes. In our case, the federal government has made FRNs a tender, and the states just use them.

                            josda1000 wrote:

                            A side note: why the hell would the united states constitution say, "The Congress shall have Power... to fix the standard of weights and measures", if we don't have gold or silver coin as a tender in payments of debt? You do know about the Continental, the currency we used before our dollar of the united states, i assume. This is precisely why this power is set inside the constitution.

                            Because if we WERE to use a metal-backed currency, the government would need the power to define its value in terms of that metal. The founding fathers were making sure this was possible, but not requiring it to be so. I think they were smart enough to know that they couldn't foresee the future, so only put what CAN be done, not what MUST be done.

                            josda1000 wrote:

                            The power to coin money is given to Congress. Coining money is specific: it pertains to gold and silver coin. It has nothing to do with bills of credit

                            Assuming you're not trying to differentiate between creating metal coins, and printing paper currency ("coining" vs "minting"), and interpret it, as I do, as the power to "create money." What defines what is and isn't money? To use a fictional example, there's a bit in Hitchhiker's Guide where the Golgafrinchans adopt the leaf (As in, leaves from trees) as legal tender. It's a silly example, but technically that's as valid as selecting gold or silver to be legal tender (As valid, not as intelligent). Money is a medium of exchange... Something that people agree have a certain value. It can be metal, leaves, pieces of paper, human skulls, or whatever people want, as long as they agree on its value. It's just a means of barter. In our case, (nearly) all of us believe that FRNs have a certain (declining) value, so it's suitable to use as currency. In thi

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                            J Offline
                            josda1000
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #20

                            Ian Shlasko wrote:

                            It says the states can't "make anything but gold and silver a tender." As in, the states are not allowed to create their own currency.

                            Sorry, but you're wrong here. The states can't make currency because of: Article I, Section 10: "No state shall... coin Money". That is five words that will discount all money minted/coined by the state governments. "mak[ing] any Thing but gold and silver coin a tender in Payments of Debt" is a separate issue, and allows any gold and silver found by people, coined by governments (even our federal government), or any other form (jewelry, bars, coins, whatever) to be tender. The only way for the states to deem something a true transaction is by use of silver and gold, not paper. I know, this is against all of what you have believed all of your life, but it's the truth. It's right there in black and white (or brown, as it were).

                            Ian Shlasko wrote:

                            They can't print their own money, and they can't suddenly decree that nuts and bolts are now legal tender. It makes an exception for gold and silver, saying that those two metals CAN be used as currency if the state so wishes.

                            Incorrect. Why in the hell would they specify gold and silver in the Constitution anywhere, if they can simply get around it by allowing the federation to create money out of paper? Ridiculous. "No state shall... coin Money... make any thing but gold and silver coin a tender in payments of debt." To you, it must be redundancy. But to me, as a constitutionalist, it's two different clauses. Technically, you know I'd be right. The point is, to beat a dead horse, that they are two different things. No state shall make currency, and they shall not accept anything except gold and silver as legal tender in the first place.

                            Ian Shlasko wrote:

                            In our case, the federal government has made FRNs a tender, and the states just use them.

                            Yes. They did. It's unconstitutional to allow people to use anything but gold and silver, however (in the states). So, both the states and the federal government have violated the constitution, and technically, so have everyone within the union. Everyone violates the law, multiple times a day. It's extreme, I know. But, it's the truth. Take a good hard look at the constitution. Don't "interpret" to your satisfaction. Just read the damned thing.

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                            • L Lost User

                              God, after all that fat_boy related idiocy, it's actually good to see you back... ;)

                              L u n a t i c F r i n g e

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                              Christian Graus
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #21

                              ROTFL !!!!!

                              Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.

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                              • C Christian Graus

                                ROTFL !!!!!

                                Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.

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                                Lost User
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #22

                                :-D

                                L u n a t i c F r i n g e

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                                • J josda1000

                                  Ian Shlasko wrote:

                                  It says the states can't "make anything but gold and silver a tender." As in, the states are not allowed to create their own currency.

                                  Sorry, but you're wrong here. The states can't make currency because of: Article I, Section 10: "No state shall... coin Money". That is five words that will discount all money minted/coined by the state governments. "mak[ing] any Thing but gold and silver coin a tender in Payments of Debt" is a separate issue, and allows any gold and silver found by people, coined by governments (even our federal government), or any other form (jewelry, bars, coins, whatever) to be tender. The only way for the states to deem something a true transaction is by use of silver and gold, not paper. I know, this is against all of what you have believed all of your life, but it's the truth. It's right there in black and white (or brown, as it were).

                                  Ian Shlasko wrote:

                                  They can't print their own money, and they can't suddenly decree that nuts and bolts are now legal tender. It makes an exception for gold and silver, saying that those two metals CAN be used as currency if the state so wishes.

                                  Incorrect. Why in the hell would they specify gold and silver in the Constitution anywhere, if they can simply get around it by allowing the federation to create money out of paper? Ridiculous. "No state shall... coin Money... make any thing but gold and silver coin a tender in payments of debt." To you, it must be redundancy. But to me, as a constitutionalist, it's two different clauses. Technically, you know I'd be right. The point is, to beat a dead horse, that they are two different things. No state shall make currency, and they shall not accept anything except gold and silver as legal tender in the first place.

                                  Ian Shlasko wrote:

                                  In our case, the federal government has made FRNs a tender, and the states just use them.

                                  Yes. They did. It's unconstitutional to allow people to use anything but gold and silver, however (in the states). So, both the states and the federal government have violated the constitution, and technically, so have everyone within the union. Everyone violates the law, multiple times a day. It's extreme, I know. But, it's the truth. Take a good hard look at the constitution. Don't "interpret" to your satisfaction. Just read the damned thing.

                                  I Offline
                                  I Offline
                                  Ian Shlasko
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #23

                                  josda1000 wrote:

                                  That is five words that will discount all money minted/coined by the state governments. "mak[ing] any Thing but gold and silver coin a tender in Payments of Debt" is a separate issue, and allows any gold and silver found by people, coined by governments (even our federal government), or any other form (jewelry, bars, coins, whatever) to be tender. The only way for the states to deem something a true transaction is by use of silver and gold, not paper. I know, this is against all of what you have believed all of your life, but it's the truth. It's right there in black and white (or brown, as it were).

                                  Either you're completely wrong, or I'm really misunderstanding your argument. It says the STATES can't coin money. It doesn't say anything about not being able to use money coined by the FEDERAL government. To "make something a tender" is to create a currency. To say "We're paying this debt in garlic knots instead of dollars." The states are prohibited from doing that. The federal government is not. This clause prevents the states from defining their own currency, and that's it.

                                  josda1000 wrote:

                                  Don't "interpret" to your satisfaction. Just read the damned thing.

                                  I've read it through about twenty times now, trying to see your point. All this does is define what the states are allowed to do, and what powers are reserved to the federal government only.

                                  josda1000 wrote:

                                  Bingo. Why would they put that in there if we to go off of gold and silver coins? Seriously. (think of original intent.)

                                  As I said before, the founders put that in so the government would be ABLE to work with gold and silver backed currency. It did NOT require it. Show me the phrase that prohibits the FEDERAL government from issuing currency other than gold or silver.

                                  josda1000 wrote:

                                  OK, let's pretend that we agree that it's all based on "trust". Why has this "trust" in the dollar gone down so far, in about 40 years? Do you think we can live on this "trust" very much longer? The "trust" in gold has never wavered. So you do agree that leaves would not be a good medium of exchange; why do you think that colored leaves are a good medium of exchange? Just because it looks official? Because it has the name, "United States of America" on them? I submit that pennies, in their copper form, are mu

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                                  • I Ian Shlasko

                                    josda1000 wrote:

                                    That is five words that will discount all money minted/coined by the state governments. "mak[ing] any Thing but gold and silver coin a tender in Payments of Debt" is a separate issue, and allows any gold and silver found by people, coined by governments (even our federal government), or any other form (jewelry, bars, coins, whatever) to be tender. The only way for the states to deem something a true transaction is by use of silver and gold, not paper. I know, this is against all of what you have believed all of your life, but it's the truth. It's right there in black and white (or brown, as it were).

                                    Either you're completely wrong, or I'm really misunderstanding your argument. It says the STATES can't coin money. It doesn't say anything about not being able to use money coined by the FEDERAL government. To "make something a tender" is to create a currency. To say "We're paying this debt in garlic knots instead of dollars." The states are prohibited from doing that. The federal government is not. This clause prevents the states from defining their own currency, and that's it.

                                    josda1000 wrote:

                                    Don't "interpret" to your satisfaction. Just read the damned thing.

                                    I've read it through about twenty times now, trying to see your point. All this does is define what the states are allowed to do, and what powers are reserved to the federal government only.

                                    josda1000 wrote:

                                    Bingo. Why would they put that in there if we to go off of gold and silver coins? Seriously. (think of original intent.)

                                    As I said before, the founders put that in so the government would be ABLE to work with gold and silver backed currency. It did NOT require it. Show me the phrase that prohibits the FEDERAL government from issuing currency other than gold or silver.

                                    josda1000 wrote:

                                    OK, let's pretend that we agree that it's all based on "trust". Why has this "trust" in the dollar gone down so far, in about 40 years? Do you think we can live on this "trust" very much longer? The "trust" in gold has never wavered. So you do agree that leaves would not be a good medium of exchange; why do you think that colored leaves are a good medium of exchange? Just because it looks official? Because it has the name, "United States of America" on them? I submit that pennies, in their copper form, are mu

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                                    ragnaroknrol
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #24

                                    I've got some nice pocket lint... I'd join in this, but I had my fill today.

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                                    • I Ian Shlasko

                                      josda1000 wrote:

                                      That is five words that will discount all money minted/coined by the state governments. "mak[ing] any Thing but gold and silver coin a tender in Payments of Debt" is a separate issue, and allows any gold and silver found by people, coined by governments (even our federal government), or any other form (jewelry, bars, coins, whatever) to be tender. The only way for the states to deem something a true transaction is by use of silver and gold, not paper. I know, this is against all of what you have believed all of your life, but it's the truth. It's right there in black and white (or brown, as it were).

                                      Either you're completely wrong, or I'm really misunderstanding your argument. It says the STATES can't coin money. It doesn't say anything about not being able to use money coined by the FEDERAL government. To "make something a tender" is to create a currency. To say "We're paying this debt in garlic knots instead of dollars." The states are prohibited from doing that. The federal government is not. This clause prevents the states from defining their own currency, and that's it.

                                      josda1000 wrote:

                                      Don't "interpret" to your satisfaction. Just read the damned thing.

                                      I've read it through about twenty times now, trying to see your point. All this does is define what the states are allowed to do, and what powers are reserved to the federal government only.

                                      josda1000 wrote:

                                      Bingo. Why would they put that in there if we to go off of gold and silver coins? Seriously. (think of original intent.)

                                      As I said before, the founders put that in so the government would be ABLE to work with gold and silver backed currency. It did NOT require it. Show me the phrase that prohibits the FEDERAL government from issuing currency other than gold or silver.

                                      josda1000 wrote:

                                      OK, let's pretend that we agree that it's all based on "trust". Why has this "trust" in the dollar gone down so far, in about 40 years? Do you think we can live on this "trust" very much longer? The "trust" in gold has never wavered. So you do agree that leaves would not be a good medium of exchange; why do you think that colored leaves are a good medium of exchange? Just because it looks official? Because it has the name, "United States of America" on them? I submit that pennies, in their copper form, are mu

                                      J Offline
                                      J Offline
                                      josda1000
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #25

                                      Ian Shlasko wrote:

                                      It says the STATES can't coin money. It doesn't say anything about not being able to use money coined by the FEDERAL government.

                                      You're absolutely right about that, except for the one point I'm trying to make: The states MUST use gold and silver coin as legal tender. Therefore, in order for us to use any kind of "currency" created by the federal government, said government must make gold and silver coins, and the states MUST force us to use that silver and gold. The only way that the Fed can be allowed to create money is for use in the District of Columbia and the territories. They are not allowed to operate in the states.

                                      Ian Shlasko wrote:

                                      To "make something a tender" is to create a currency.

                                      No. Just, no. It's not. Read what you just wrote. Making something a tender is to declare something is tender. You said it yourself: the federal government can make pinecones or leaves tender. But that's not actually "making" or "creating" A tender. It is more like a declaration or decree.

                                      Ian Shlasko wrote:

                                      To say "We're paying this debt in garlic knots instead of dollars."

                                      Agreed.

                                      Ian Shlasko wrote:

                                      The states are prohibited from doing that.

                                      Not agreed. They are only limited to saying what specific silver or gold is legal in that state. For example, they can say that Spanish silver dollars are legal tender, but not United States silver dollars. It'd be hypocritical... yet they have that power.

                                      Ian Shlasko wrote:

                                      Show me the phrase that prohibits the FEDERAL government from issuing currency other than gold or silver.

                                      You're right, it doesn't. But that's precisely the point: The Consitution is one of limited powers to the Congress. Article I Section 8 spells out the powers. If it is not listed in this section, then they CAN NOT do it. So, what do we have to go on? The powers we've listed already. The states have all the power they can dream up, while only certain powers are given to the Federal government. Simply put: if it is not listed in Article I, Section 8, then Congress (the federal government) can not do it. So: you tell me where they specifically CAN do it.

                                      Ian Shlasko wrote:

                                      Leaves COULD be considered currenc

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                                      • J josda1000

                                        Ian Shlasko wrote:

                                        It says the STATES can't coin money. It doesn't say anything about not being able to use money coined by the FEDERAL government.

                                        You're absolutely right about that, except for the one point I'm trying to make: The states MUST use gold and silver coin as legal tender. Therefore, in order for us to use any kind of "currency" created by the federal government, said government must make gold and silver coins, and the states MUST force us to use that silver and gold. The only way that the Fed can be allowed to create money is for use in the District of Columbia and the territories. They are not allowed to operate in the states.

                                        Ian Shlasko wrote:

                                        To "make something a tender" is to create a currency.

                                        No. Just, no. It's not. Read what you just wrote. Making something a tender is to declare something is tender. You said it yourself: the federal government can make pinecones or leaves tender. But that's not actually "making" or "creating" A tender. It is more like a declaration or decree.

                                        Ian Shlasko wrote:

                                        To say "We're paying this debt in garlic knots instead of dollars."

                                        Agreed.

                                        Ian Shlasko wrote:

                                        The states are prohibited from doing that.

                                        Not agreed. They are only limited to saying what specific silver or gold is legal in that state. For example, they can say that Spanish silver dollars are legal tender, but not United States silver dollars. It'd be hypocritical... yet they have that power.

                                        Ian Shlasko wrote:

                                        Show me the phrase that prohibits the FEDERAL government from issuing currency other than gold or silver.

                                        You're right, it doesn't. But that's precisely the point: The Consitution is one of limited powers to the Congress. Article I Section 8 spells out the powers. If it is not listed in this section, then they CAN NOT do it. So, what do we have to go on? The powers we've listed already. The states have all the power they can dream up, while only certain powers are given to the Federal government. Simply put: if it is not listed in Article I, Section 8, then Congress (the federal government) can not do it. So: you tell me where they specifically CAN do it.

                                        Ian Shlasko wrote:

                                        Leaves COULD be considered currenc

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                                        Ian Shlasko
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #26

                                        josda1000 wrote:

                                        The states MUST use gold and silver coin as legal tender.

                                        Incorrect. See below.

                                        josda1000 wrote:

                                        No. Just, no. It's not. Read what you just wrote. Making something a tender is to declare something is tender.

                                        Poor choice of words on my part. You're absolutely correct. And the constitution says that the states are NOT allowed to declare anything to be tender, apart from gold and silver. The FEDERAL government IS allowed to make such a declaration, and does with FRNs. The states are then simply using the currency that has already been declared to be tender by the federal government.

                                        josda1000 wrote:

                                        You're right, it doesn't. But that's precisely the point: The Consitution is one of limited powers to the Congress. Article I Section 8 spells out the powers. If it is not listed in this section, then they CAN NOT do it. So, what do we have to go on? The powers we've listed already. The states have all the power they can dream up, while only certain powers are given to the Federal government. Simply put: if it is not listed in Article I, Section 8, then Congress (the federal government) can not do it. So: you tell me where they specifically CAN do it.

                                        We've been over this. They (federal gov) have the power to coin (create) money, and to regulate its value. This isn't rocket science. It doesn't say they have to use gold or silver. It says "money." Anything can be money. The federal government decided that FRNs are money. Tada, they've coined money. They've declared it tender, and now the states can use it.

                                        josda1000 wrote:

                                        What I'm also trying to get through to you is that leaves are paper! and that's precisely what we have today, paper money! What makes you think that printing money out of paper is any more logical than leaves from a tree?! They say that money doesn't grow on trees. I call bulls***.

                                        Because FRNs can't be grown in your backyard? Because they're difficult enough to counterfeit that the government (Or their delgate, the Fed) can control their production, and hence regulate their value? If maple leaves were the currency, and the federal government was the only one with maple trees, then maybe those could be currency. Still kinda easy to counterfeit, though.

                                        Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark

                                        J 1 Reply Last reply
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                                        • C CaptainSeeSharp

                                          My modem died.

                                          Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album (They sound very much like Metallica, great lyrics too)[^]

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                                          L Offline
                                          Lost User
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #27

                                          CaptainSeeSharp wrote:

                                          My modem died.

                                          You think so? I think the federal government killed it to shut you up as your obviously know too much

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