Milton Friedman PBS Free to Choose 1980 Vol 1 of 10 Power of the Market [modified]
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America's freedom and prosperity derive from the combination of the idea of human liberty in America's Declaration of Independence with the idea of economic freedom in Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. Friedman explains how markets and voluntary exchange organize activity and enable people to improve their lives. He also explains the price system. Friedman visits Hong Kong, U.S. and Scotland.[^] You can follow the related video links to find volumes 2 through 10. This PBS series looks at why socialism and communism never work, and why capitalism is the only workable system. Note that we are living in a Keynesian socialist society today and so don't get all Micheal Moore and say that capitalism is what we have today. Halfway through a serious debate between Friedman and many socialists take place.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
modified on Saturday, March 13, 2010 7:36 PM
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America's freedom and prosperity derive from the combination of the idea of human liberty in America's Declaration of Independence with the idea of economic freedom in Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. Friedman explains how markets and voluntary exchange organize activity and enable people to improve their lives. He also explains the price system. Friedman visits Hong Kong, U.S. and Scotland.[^] You can follow the related video links to find volumes 2 through 10. This PBS series looks at why socialism and communism never work, and why capitalism is the only workable system. Note that we are living in a Keynesian socialist society today and so don't get all Micheal Moore and say that capitalism is what we have today. Halfway through a serious debate between Friedman and many socialists take place.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
modified on Saturday, March 13, 2010 7:36 PM
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
and why capitalism is the only workable system.
Yes, as a whole, that is true. However, for a system to work, it does not need to serve the needs of all, or even most of it's members. True unfettered capitalism means exploitation of workers. That's why there are elements of socialism in every capitalistic country I can think of. The real reason for this is not capitalism, it's democracy. They are different things, and democracy gives the poor an equal vote to the rich, which is not always great, sometimes the handouts people vote for, are not good for the long term health of the country. Democracy DOES spell the death of pure capitalism, because the majority will never vote for a system that abuses and exploits them. BTW, I do appreciate you taking my comments to heart and providing some sort of commentary on your posts, even if you did go the long way around before doing as I asked.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
and why capitalism is the only workable system.
Yes, as a whole, that is true. However, for a system to work, it does not need to serve the needs of all, or even most of it's members. True unfettered capitalism means exploitation of workers. That's why there are elements of socialism in every capitalistic country I can think of. The real reason for this is not capitalism, it's democracy. They are different things, and democracy gives the poor an equal vote to the rich, which is not always great, sometimes the handouts people vote for, are not good for the long term health of the country. Democracy DOES spell the death of pure capitalism, because the majority will never vote for a system that abuses and exploits them. BTW, I do appreciate you taking my comments to heart and providing some sort of commentary on your posts, even if you did go the long way around before doing as I asked.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Yes, as a whole, that is true.
Glad you agree, NOT!
Christian Graus wrote:
However, for a system to work, it does not need to serve the needs of all, or even most of it's members.
The system serves nobody. People take productive time to combine their skills and labor to resources that someone is willing to trade his or her productive time for. If the market is not demanding your supply then their is no benefit. Their are limitless opportunities in a true free-market, so as long as you take advantage of those opportunities you will profit, and as a whole the system will develop benefiting all.
Christian Graus wrote:
That's why there are elements of socialism in every capitalistic country I can think of.
Let's define socialism. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism[^] 1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods 2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state 3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done Now that I have corrected your misuse of th4e word socialism, you now understand that socialism has led to exploitation of workers, social disorder, social and economic deterioration, corruption, and tyranny.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
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America's freedom and prosperity derive from the combination of the idea of human liberty in America's Declaration of Independence with the idea of economic freedom in Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. Friedman explains how markets and voluntary exchange organize activity and enable people to improve their lives. He also explains the price system. Friedman visits Hong Kong, U.S. and Scotland.[^] You can follow the related video links to find volumes 2 through 10. This PBS series looks at why socialism and communism never work, and why capitalism is the only workable system. Note that we are living in a Keynesian socialist society today and so don't get all Micheal Moore and say that capitalism is what we have today. Halfway through a serious debate between Friedman and many socialists take place.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
modified on Saturday, March 13, 2010 7:36 PM
What the fuck do you know about economics? NOTHING, so fuck off back to your solitary wank fest room you liar.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
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Christian Graus wrote:
Yes, as a whole, that is true.
Glad you agree, NOT!
Christian Graus wrote:
However, for a system to work, it does not need to serve the needs of all, or even most of it's members.
The system serves nobody. People take productive time to combine their skills and labor to resources that someone is willing to trade his or her productive time for. If the market is not demanding your supply then their is no benefit. Their are limitless opportunities in a true free-market, so as long as you take advantage of those opportunities you will profit, and as a whole the system will develop benefiting all.
Christian Graus wrote:
That's why there are elements of socialism in every capitalistic country I can think of.
Let's define socialism. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism[^] 1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods 2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state 3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done Now that I have corrected your misuse of th4e word socialism, you now understand that socialism has led to exploitation of workers, social disorder, social and economic deterioration, corruption, and tyranny.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
You really are a no-nothing spunk-stain. Who are you libel tonight wanker? Go and die a horrible death. You post shite you read without understanding any of it. (BTW, I am qualified in economics and you still are a cunt)
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
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Christian Graus wrote:
Yes, as a whole, that is true.
Glad you agree, NOT!
Christian Graus wrote:
However, for a system to work, it does not need to serve the needs of all, or even most of it's members.
The system serves nobody. People take productive time to combine their skills and labor to resources that someone is willing to trade his or her productive time for. If the market is not demanding your supply then their is no benefit. Their are limitless opportunities in a true free-market, so as long as you take advantage of those opportunities you will profit, and as a whole the system will develop benefiting all.
Christian Graus wrote:
That's why there are elements of socialism in every capitalistic country I can think of.
Let's define socialism. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism[^] 1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods 2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state 3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done Now that I have corrected your misuse of th4e word socialism, you now understand that socialism has led to exploitation of workers, social disorder, social and economic deterioration, corruption, and tyranny.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Their are limitless opportunities in a true free-market, so as long as you take advantage of those opportunities you will profit, and as a whole the system will develop benefiting all.
Rubbish. Have you read a book called 'The Jungle' ? The people who lived in slums, took what work they could, and lived in poverty, how did capitalism provide them with opportunity ? Companies like Walmart today hire people as casual labour, hire more than they need, and create a situation where workers fight each other for hours so they have money, thus stopping any sort of collective union type movement, and they obviously allow Walmart to define all their workers as casual and therefore deny them any sort of paid leave. This benefits Walmart. How does it benefit the workers ?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Now that I have corrected your misuse of th4e word socialism, you now understand that socialism has led to exploitation of workers, social disorder, social and economic deterioration, corruption, and tyranny.
By this definition, there never has been, and never will be, any form of socialism in any democratic country.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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What the fuck do you know about economics? NOTHING, so fuck off back to your solitary wank fest room you liar.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
You know, it's clear that the way CSS behaves at times is anti social and totally unacceptable. however, the only way I can see for this forum to work at all, is if we treat him reasonably when he behaves reasonably, and ignore him when he doesn't. So, as long as he's presenting a point of view and discussing it, how is it helpful to attack him ? If we attack him whatever he says, what is his motivation for behaving in a reasonable manner ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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You know, it's clear that the way CSS behaves at times is anti social and totally unacceptable. however, the only way I can see for this forum to work at all, is if we treat him reasonably when he behaves reasonably, and ignore him when he doesn't. So, as long as he's presenting a point of view and discussing it, how is it helpful to attack him ? If we attack him whatever he says, what is his motivation for behaving in a reasonable manner ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
I am treating him reasonably. He said he would disappear to his solitary room, never to return, and yet he did, so he is a liar. Since he has proved himself to be a liar, how can we take anything he says other than dubious at best. There is also the fact he is a libellous little shit, thusly he deserves all he gets. The trouble with your argument, which otherwise would be a good argument, is that he is not a reasonable human being. He is an ill-eduacated arse who is incapable of understanding other people have a view and that his views are not universally popular, and therefore reduces himself (amazingly), to personal attacks.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
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I am treating him reasonably. He said he would disappear to his solitary room, never to return, and yet he did, so he is a liar. Since he has proved himself to be a liar, how can we take anything he says other than dubious at best. There is also the fact he is a libellous little shit, thusly he deserves all he gets. The trouble with your argument, which otherwise would be a good argument, is that he is not a reasonable human being. He is an ill-eduacated arse who is incapable of understanding other people have a view and that his views are not universally popular, and therefore reduces himself (amazingly), to personal attacks.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
Dalek Dave wrote:
The trouble with your argument, which otherwise would be a good argument, is that he is not a reasonable human being.
I agree - all the more reason for the rest of us to provide an example of what it means to be reasonble.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Yes, as a whole, that is true.
Glad you agree, NOT!
Christian Graus wrote:
However, for a system to work, it does not need to serve the needs of all, or even most of it's members.
The system serves nobody. People take productive time to combine their skills and labor to resources that someone is willing to trade his or her productive time for. If the market is not demanding your supply then their is no benefit. Their are limitless opportunities in a true free-market, so as long as you take advantage of those opportunities you will profit, and as a whole the system will develop benefiting all.
Christian Graus wrote:
That's why there are elements of socialism in every capitalistic country I can think of.
Let's define socialism. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism[^] 1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods 2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state 3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done Now that I have corrected your misuse of th4e word socialism, you now understand that socialism has led to exploitation of workers, social disorder, social and economic deterioration, corruption, and tyranny.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
If the market is not demanding your supply then their is no benefit.
I don't notice the market beating a path to your door. :laugh:
You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Their are limitless opportunities in a true free-market, so as long as you take advantage of those opportunities you will profit, and as a whole the system will develop benefiting all.
Rubbish. Have you read a book called 'The Jungle' ? The people who lived in slums, took what work they could, and lived in poverty, how did capitalism provide them with opportunity ? Companies like Walmart today hire people as casual labour, hire more than they need, and create a situation where workers fight each other for hours so they have money, thus stopping any sort of collective union type movement, and they obviously allow Walmart to define all their workers as casual and therefore deny them any sort of paid leave. This benefits Walmart. How does it benefit the workers ?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Now that I have corrected your misuse of th4e word socialism, you now understand that socialism has led to exploitation of workers, social disorder, social and economic deterioration, corruption, and tyranny.
By this definition, there never has been, and never will be, any form of socialism in any democratic country.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
The people who lived in slums, took what work they could, and lived in poverty, how did capitalism provide them with opportunity ?
This is an early stage of economic development. Every economy that is naturally developed went through this stage. Government intervention however will inevitably deteriorate highly developed economies back to this stage, and inhibit development to a higher stage.
Christian Graus wrote:
Companies like Walmart today hire people as casual labour, hire more than they need, and create a situation where workers fight each other for hours so they have money, thus stopping any sort of collective union type movement, and they obviously allow Walmart to define all their workers as casual and therefore deny them any sort of paid leave. This benefits Walmart. How does it benefit the workers ?
Walmart needs the socialist governments of the United States and China to do business the way they do. Most employess of Walmart must collect government assistance to survive, foodstamps, medicaid, WIC, and Section 8 housing. Over in China, the communist government rigs the economy for ripe exploitation by select groups of people.
Christian Graus wrote:
By this definition, there never has been, and never will be, any form of socialism in any democratic country.
You say this but it obviously isn't true. You are somewhat correct in that socialism has never been successful. As we see in socialist America, the once great capitalist nation that the world owes its success is now nothing but a deteriorated receivership.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
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Dalek Dave wrote:
The trouble with your argument, which otherwise would be a good argument, is that he is not a reasonable human being.
I agree - all the more reason for the rest of us to provide an example of what it means to be reasonble.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
To steal from the teachings you follow, one can only turn the other cheek so many times. I have forgiven things done before, and have been pleasantly surprised, and also not surprised at all, it depends on the person and the circumstance. However, this arse cannot be helped. Even if you managed to get him to a trick cyclist he would argue that the psychology behind the questioning was invalid as he would deem it unfair to psychotic tosspots like himself. A bullet through his left temporal meningioma might cure him of his anxiety.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
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Christian Graus wrote:
The people who lived in slums, took what work they could, and lived in poverty, how did capitalism provide them with opportunity ?
This is an early stage of economic development. Every economy that is naturally developed went through this stage. Government intervention however will inevitably deteriorate highly developed economies back to this stage, and inhibit development to a higher stage.
Christian Graus wrote:
Companies like Walmart today hire people as casual labour, hire more than they need, and create a situation where workers fight each other for hours so they have money, thus stopping any sort of collective union type movement, and they obviously allow Walmart to define all their workers as casual and therefore deny them any sort of paid leave. This benefits Walmart. How does it benefit the workers ?
Walmart needs the socialist governments of the United States and China to do business the way they do. Most employess of Walmart must collect government assistance to survive, foodstamps, medicaid, WIC, and Section 8 housing. Over in China, the communist government rigs the economy for ripe exploitation by select groups of people.
Christian Graus wrote:
By this definition, there never has been, and never will be, any form of socialism in any democratic country.
You say this but it obviously isn't true. You are somewhat correct in that socialism has never been successful. As we see in socialist America, the once great capitalist nation that the world owes its success is now nothing but a deteriorated receivership.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
Why are you still here you liar? Is your room devoid of company? Ah, I see it is. Why is that? Could it be that you are a deeply despised and lonely individual? Oh look, it appears you are. So go away twat-face.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
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To steal from the teachings you follow, one can only turn the other cheek so many times. I have forgiven things done before, and have been pleasantly surprised, and also not surprised at all, it depends on the person and the circumstance. However, this arse cannot be helped. Even if you managed to get him to a trick cyclist he would argue that the psychology behind the questioning was invalid as he would deem it unfair to psychotic tosspots like himself. A bullet through his left temporal meningioma might cure him of his anxiety.
------------------------------------ I will never again mention that I was the poster of the One Millionth Lounge Post, nor that it was complete drivel. Dalek Dave
Dalek Dave wrote:
I have forgiven things done before, and have been pleasantly surprised, and also not surprised at all, it depends on the person and the circumstance.
To be honest, I don't do it for him, I do it to exhibit the sort of person I hope to be. What he does with that, is up to him and does not change my intentions.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote:
The people who lived in slums, took what work they could, and lived in poverty, how did capitalism provide them with opportunity ?
This is an early stage of economic development. Every economy that is naturally developed went through this stage. Government intervention however will inevitably deteriorate highly developed economies back to this stage, and inhibit development to a higher stage.
Christian Graus wrote:
Companies like Walmart today hire people as casual labour, hire more than they need, and create a situation where workers fight each other for hours so they have money, thus stopping any sort of collective union type movement, and they obviously allow Walmart to define all their workers as casual and therefore deny them any sort of paid leave. This benefits Walmart. How does it benefit the workers ?
Walmart needs the socialist governments of the United States and China to do business the way they do. Most employess of Walmart must collect government assistance to survive, foodstamps, medicaid, WIC, and Section 8 housing. Over in China, the communist government rigs the economy for ripe exploitation by select groups of people.
Christian Graus wrote:
By this definition, there never has been, and never will be, any form of socialism in any democratic country.
You say this but it obviously isn't true. You are somewhat correct in that socialism has never been successful. As we see in socialist America, the once great capitalist nation that the world owes its success is now nothing but a deteriorated receivership.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Government intervention however will inevitably deteriorate highly developed economies back to this stage, and inhibit development to a higher stage.
Rubbish. Government intervention is what stopped the meat packers both exploiting workers, and selling foodstuff that were not what they claimed, or were in fact inedible.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Walmart needs the socialist governments of the United States and China to do business the way they do.
Please repost your definition of socialism and explain how they USA conforms to it. It plainly does not.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Most employess of Walmart must collect government assistance to survive, foodstamps, medicaid, WIC, and Section 8 housing.
The workers in 'The Jungle' did not have those options. This did not raise wages, it simply left them to die in poverty. That is the product of 'pure' capitalism. Walmart continues to follow that model in every way it is able to, and it's capitalism, not socialism, that causes your government to allow it.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
As we see in socialist America, the once great capitalist nation that the world owes its success is now nothing but a deteriorated receivership.
This is hyperbole. It is the opposite of you taking the definition you gave and explaining how it fits the USA in any way. Saying the USA is socialist over and over will not make it true.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Government intervention however will inevitably deteriorate highly developed economies back to this stage, and inhibit development to a higher stage.
Rubbish. Government intervention is what stopped the meat packers both exploiting workers, and selling foodstuff that were not what they claimed, or were in fact inedible.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Walmart needs the socialist governments of the United States and China to do business the way they do.
Please repost your definition of socialism and explain how they USA conforms to it. It plainly does not.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Most employess of Walmart must collect government assistance to survive, foodstamps, medicaid, WIC, and Section 8 housing.
The workers in 'The Jungle' did not have those options. This did not raise wages, it simply left them to die in poverty. That is the product of 'pure' capitalism. Walmart continues to follow that model in every way it is able to, and it's capitalism, not socialism, that causes your government to allow it.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
As we see in socialist America, the once great capitalist nation that the world owes its success is now nothing but a deteriorated receivership.
This is hyperbole. It is the opposite of you taking the definition you gave and explaining how it fits the USA in any way. Saying the USA is socialist over and over will not make it true.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
selling foodstuff that were not what they claimed, or were in fact inedible.
I never said government is not needed. It is obviously illegal to poison people or to defraud no matter how the economic system operates.
Christian Graus wrote:
The workers in 'The Jungle' did not have those options.
We are talking about whats real. 'The Jungle' is a book.
Christian Graus wrote:
That is the product of 'pure' capitalism. Walmart continues to follow that model in every way it is able to, and it's capitalism, not socialism, that causes your government to allow it.
Walmart is subsidized by the socialist United States and by communist China. Walmart doesn't have to pay their employees fair wages because those employees have most of their expenses payed for by taxpayers. In China, their centrally planned communist system is specifically designed for exploitation of slave labor by the iron fist of communism.
Christian Graus wrote:
Please repost your definition of socialism and explain how they USA conforms to it.
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods 2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state With the Federal Reserve in control of the money and credit supply of the worlds most dominate currency, they essentially own and control the entire dollar dependent economy. Additionally with the recent bailouts costing taxpayers trillions of dollars (not to mention previous and already existent subsidies), it does not take a mathematical genius to understand that the government controls the means of production. General Motors is now Government Motors, the government is taking over healthcare (which has already heavy interference by government which is the reason why its broke in the first place), setting up a government controlled taxpayer funded broadband system, public transport, the list goes on and on. 3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done This
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America's freedom and prosperity derive from the combination of the idea of human liberty in America's Declaration of Independence with the idea of economic freedom in Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. Friedman explains how markets and voluntary exchange organize activity and enable people to improve their lives. He also explains the price system. Friedman visits Hong Kong, U.S. and Scotland.[^] You can follow the related video links to find volumes 2 through 10. This PBS series looks at why socialism and communism never work, and why capitalism is the only workable system. Note that we are living in a Keynesian socialist society today and so don't get all Micheal Moore and say that capitalism is what we have today. Halfway through a serious debate between Friedman and many socialists take place.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
modified on Saturday, March 13, 2010 7:36 PM
Monetarists believed that to control inflation you needed to control the money supply. Mrs Thatcher bought into this, and reduced the government deficit - she put up taxes, and cut government spending. She also put up interest rates. Hey! Inflation was reduced!!! Alas, so was the demand for goods and services; economic growth also. It took about a year for monetarist policies to plunge Britain into a full scale recession. Unemployment rose to an unheard of (post war WW2) 3m. (BTW: Capitalists had been complaining that Union Rates undermined Britain's ability to compete in world markets. Here is a desperate workforce looking for jobs. So what did the capitalists do? They crated up their factories and moved them abroad, where they could be even more competitive.) Controlling the money supply was more difficult than Monetarism predicted. Growth in the money supply remained high - in spite of rising interest rates and falling demand. Monetarist measures to reduce the money supply merely served to further reduce demand. By rigorously applying Mr Friedman's hypotheses and attempting to meet his money supply targets, inflation was, indeed, reduced, but at the cost of recession and devastating unemployment (highest since the Great Depression). Mr Friedman's policies were responsible for the rioting across Britain in 1981. (Which, ironically, had to be assuaged by socialist measures.) Mr Friedman is, alas, just another Economics academic whose little models cannot stand the test of reality.
Bob Emmett CSS: I don't intend to be a technical writing, I intend to be a software engineer.
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Christian Graus wrote:
selling foodstuff that were not what they claimed, or were in fact inedible.
I never said government is not needed. It is obviously illegal to poison people or to defraud no matter how the economic system operates.
Christian Graus wrote:
The workers in 'The Jungle' did not have those options.
We are talking about whats real. 'The Jungle' is a book.
Christian Graus wrote:
That is the product of 'pure' capitalism. Walmart continues to follow that model in every way it is able to, and it's capitalism, not socialism, that causes your government to allow it.
Walmart is subsidized by the socialist United States and by communist China. Walmart doesn't have to pay their employees fair wages because those employees have most of their expenses payed for by taxpayers. In China, their centrally planned communist system is specifically designed for exploitation of slave labor by the iron fist of communism.
Christian Graus wrote:
Please repost your definition of socialism and explain how they USA conforms to it.
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods 2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state With the Federal Reserve in control of the money and credit supply of the worlds most dominate currency, they essentially own and control the entire dollar dependent economy. Additionally with the recent bailouts costing taxpayers trillions of dollars (not to mention previous and already existent subsidies), it does not take a mathematical genius to understand that the government controls the means of production. General Motors is now Government Motors, the government is taking over healthcare (which has already heavy interference by government which is the reason why its broke in the first place), setting up a government controlled taxpayer funded broadband system, public transport, the list goes on and on. 3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done This
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
I never said government is not needed. It is obviously illegal to poison people or to defraud no matter how the economic system operates.
Sure - but, the point is, the definition of 'defraud' depends on if you accept government intervention, or if you allow for unskilled workers to be treated however a company wants to treat them. The company acts in it's own interest, government acts in the interest of society as a whole ( or at least, it should ). When government does this, when it hampers the ability of a company to do whatever it wants, this is an element of socialism. The book 'The Jungle' ends with it's main protagonist finding out about socialism, and how it will lead to a utopia. I found the tail end of the book amusing, but I can certainly understand how the people who lived under pure capitalism could believe that pure socialism would be a paradise. The version that was presented sounded nightmarish to me, it involved things like doing away with 'useless' trades, like jewellers. It's promise was a subsistence lifestyle. The author obviously thought this sounded good, and to people who were starving to death, and to whom the idea of ever owning a diamond ring was nothing more than a fantasy, I bet it did.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
We are talking about whats real. 'The Jungle' is a book.
It is a work of fiction, however, it was written in reflection of the conditions that existed. It resulted not in workplace reform, as the author hoped, but in an investigation of the conditions that food was created in, and the creation of food safety laws. The author hoped to shock people with how workers were being treated, and instead shocked them mostly with what was in their food.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Walmart is subsidized by the socialist United States and by communist China.
I'm sorry, you're failing to discuss now. You're just repeating the same allegations.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Walmart doesn't have to pay their employees fair wages because those employees have most of their expenses payed for by taxpayers
I repeat - conditions have existed where workers are not paid fair wages in the past, the book 'The Jungle', while essentially fiction in the characters it presents, was written to represent the actual working conditions that exis
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Christian Graus wrote:
selling foodstuff that were not what they claimed, or were in fact inedible.
I never said government is not needed. It is obviously illegal to poison people or to defraud no matter how the economic system operates.
Christian Graus wrote:
The workers in 'The Jungle' did not have those options.
We are talking about whats real. 'The Jungle' is a book.
Christian Graus wrote:
That is the product of 'pure' capitalism. Walmart continues to follow that model in every way it is able to, and it's capitalism, not socialism, that causes your government to allow it.
Walmart is subsidized by the socialist United States and by communist China. Walmart doesn't have to pay their employees fair wages because those employees have most of their expenses payed for by taxpayers. In China, their centrally planned communist system is specifically designed for exploitation of slave labor by the iron fist of communism.
Christian Graus wrote:
Please repost your definition of socialism and explain how they USA conforms to it.
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods 2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state With the Federal Reserve in control of the money and credit supply of the worlds most dominate currency, they essentially own and control the entire dollar dependent economy. Additionally with the recent bailouts costing taxpayers trillions of dollars (not to mention previous and already existent subsidies), it does not take a mathematical genius to understand that the government controls the means of production. General Motors is now Government Motors, the government is taking over healthcare (which has already heavy interference by government which is the reason why its broke in the first place), setting up a government controlled taxpayer funded broadband system, public transport, the list goes on and on. 3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done This
Wow, socialist US, wow, then my home country is far beyond socialism, checking my tires pressure is free in my home country, I have to pay 75 cents here to do so, health care is free also in my home country, I have to pay for insurance here, universities are free also, you have to pay thousands of dollars in the US to get a degree; and the list can continue, and still I feel that my home country is very capitalist(I'm from Mexico btw), did you read the news? the new richest man of the world is from Mexico and there's more than one person in that list from Mexico. So having free health care, free universities, free air checks for your tires, subsized energy, gasoline, heating, unemployment help from the gov't, help for old people, single moms, etc makes my home country socialist? or a country that has a gov't that cares for its citizens? and still the gov't allows the banks to rip us apart with high interest rates... I call that capitalism!!! (and other things too ;P ), having the richest man in the world isn't capitalism?, otherwise how did he do all his money in a socialist country? Having education is a right not a privilege, having health care is a right not a privilege, these things that you call socialism are rights for every person, not only for the ones that can afford it and has to be a policy in every gov't of the world, many countries have already taking steps to provide free education and health care, to name a few, Canada, France, UK, and I don't see where's the socialism in those countries. I cannot deny that life in the US is more comfortable, the infrastructure is better, higher education is better (and very expensive), yes and that I'm here with a work visa to make money, capitalism baby!!! SHOW ME THE MONEY!!! but also, you need to ask why I got a visa and the job and not an american? I can tell you that is because your socialist country only provides a degree to the ones that can afford it, so every day less and less americans have the education required to have a decent and specialized job in this socialist country and world. I manage a team of 6 americans, how weird is that?, a mexican telling 6 americans what to do and how to do it in their own home country!!!, and I'm the only one with an engineering degree in the team. I know for a fact, that universities in this state are packed with foreign students, that are from socialist countries (as I understand they are supposed to be according to your theories), a socialist capable of affording expensive education, weird. Your rig
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Christian Graus wrote:
Yes, as a whole, that is true.
Glad you agree, NOT!
Christian Graus wrote:
However, for a system to work, it does not need to serve the needs of all, or even most of it's members.
The system serves nobody. People take productive time to combine their skills and labor to resources that someone is willing to trade his or her productive time for. If the market is not demanding your supply then their is no benefit. Their are limitless opportunities in a true free-market, so as long as you take advantage of those opportunities you will profit, and as a whole the system will develop benefiting all.
Christian Graus wrote:
That's why there are elements of socialism in every capitalistic country I can think of.
Let's define socialism. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism[^] 1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods 2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state 3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done Now that I have corrected your misuse of th4e word socialism, you now understand that socialism has led to exploitation of workers, social disorder, social and economic deterioration, corruption, and tyranny.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Their are limitless opportunities in a true free-market, so as long as you take advantage of those opportunities you will profit
Unless you're counting the opportunity to take someone else's stuff and sell it for capital to start your business this is so full of crap it's funny. Or are you blaming your own employment on that horrible socialist system that surrounds you?