There Is No Right to Health Care
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Christian Graus wrote:
So you're saying that the people in America who are uninsured and cannot get access to health care because of their lack of access to insurance that is affordable, are happy about it ?
Uh, no, I did not say that. I explicitly said, "If you have insurance from a company, you're not forcefully put into it, unless the government tells you that you must buy insurance." I said nothing of happiness.
Christian Graus wrote:
One thing that having a single insurer does is push prices down.
That's definitely not true. When you have only one insurer, that's going to drive up prices because it's a monopoly. Anytime you have a monopoly, you don't have competition, therefore you can do whatever the hell you want to do without worrying about losing out on business. You can ask for whatever compensation you want, because you're the only game in town. What's more, it's coming straight from taxes, so there's no problem at all.
Christian Graus wrote:
Do only people with jobs deserve to be healthy ?
That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, in order to get health insurance you will need a job, which will boost the economy because more people will be looking for jobs instead of sitting on their butts because they have everything handed to them. I'm not saying that employers should be tied to health insurers, though they do provide for good benefits. "You can go with this company, this is what we offer, but feel free to opt out if you wish and go with something else." People should have the option of picking the best coverage, instead of a "one package fits all" deal. To tell me what's best for me without asking is arrogant. Like I say, I'm 25, and I shouldn't have to have coverage. Honestly, let me be the arrogant one and say I don't need the coverage. While unemployed, you should still be able to get insurance if you had a job previously and you saved for it. If you are just starting out when young, you probably won't have insurance, because you don't need it, and you need to keep the money to pay off debts, or save it for the future for whatever reason, including getting insurance, if so desired. This is one big incentive to go to work, and one way to keep the economy running; go to work, save, and take care of yourself; instead of having a big bureaucracy do it for you and take care of you fr
josda1000 wrote:
I said nothing of happiness.
But, it's the core point. I am willing to bet there's a far greater % of Americans who wish they could afford medical care than there is Australians who desperately wish they could get their 1% back and just not get care if they get sick. Did you know a doctors visit for an overseas visitor here will cost in the vicinity of $35-$60 ? My visit to the doctor in the USA gave me a far lower quality of care than I'd accept from the cheapest doctor here, and cost me hundreds of dollars. It's possible that a government run system would end that level of extortion and force doctors to all provide decent care in the USA, although I don't think it's guarenteed.
josda1000 wrote:
When you have only one insurer, that's going to drive up prices because it's a monopoly.
So why is it that insurance AND visiting the doctor costs so much more in the USA ?
josda1000 wrote:
therefore you can do whatever the hell you want to do without worrying about losing out on business
Except the government is not running the system for profit. I am sure there's a degree of collusion that goes on in the US, for things to be as bad as they are, but having government run it does not run by the same rules as letting one for profit company do it.
josda1000 wrote:
What I'm saying is, in order to get health insurance you will need a job, which will boost the economy because more people will be looking for jobs instead of sitting on their butts because they have everything handed to them.
Well, I am all for complete employment, but some people just find themselves out of work for periods of time. Why should someone die because the local company shut down and filled the local area with job applicants for a time ?
josda1000 wrote:
Like I say, I'm 25, and I shouldn't have to have coverage
And here, you'd have that option in terms of private cover. Odds are, at 25, the 1% you'd pay for Medicare is not a whole lot, and it means if you need a GP, or even if you're in a car accident and need a hospital, you're covered.
josda1000 wrote:
While unemployed, you should still be able to get insurance if you had a job previously and you saved for it.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Panthiesm means there are many gods.
No. Pantheism is where nature is all around us; God is all around us. Polytheism is "many gods".
Christian Graus wrote:
If you're in a country that allows free speech, then, sure, use it. If it means someone will rape your wife and kill you, perhaps it's wiser to keep quiet.
Well, yeah! duh! Freedom comes with responsibility. You must be responsible enough to know when to shut up, in order to protect yourself. You make your own choices on what to say, you have your own ideas, nobody can take that away from you. That's personal inhibition as opposed to someone else telling you to shut up. If you say something, you should prepare for consequences. Like my show; I may have calls that come in if people disagree with me, or maybe someday someone will even pick a fight with me, or start a law suit. Who knows. But you know what? I'll decide if I should say what I say, not someone else. That's self-protection, self-defense. But the point is that if governments imprison you for speaking in an unpopular manner, as I do a lot on this site apparently, then that's wrong, it's totalitarian, however you still have not lost your natural right to talk. It doesn't cost you anything to speak, it's part of your humanity.
Christian Graus wrote:
I don't mean this as a criticism, but this video sounds like a ramble based on a lack of knowledge or understanding about God, and some word games.
Yes, I am very unknowledgable when it comes to standardized religions. However, are you saying you know more about God than I do? How do you know? It's impossible. If I have an opinion on this, and you have a completely different opinion, who is right? Nobody. Nobody is right. It's an idea that has not, and possibly can never, be proven right one way or the other.
Christian Graus wrote:
'we are all god' only if there is no actual God.
Agreed. Dead right. But I'm making my own opinions. Are you afraid that if you believe there is no God here, and you then find out there is, that He won't accept you into His house? I doubt it, as long as you live a principled and good life, and are kind to everyone and do the best you can.
Christian Graus wrote:
We have the right t
josda1000 wrote:
No. Pantheism is where nature is all around us; God is all around us. Polytheism is "many gods".
I think you are right. *hangs head in shame*
josda1000 wrote:
But the point is that if governments imprison you for speaking in an unpopular manner, as I do a lot on this site apparently, then that's wrong, it's totalitarian, however you still have not lost your natural right to talk. It doesn't cost you anything to speak, it's part of your humanity.
Yes, that is true. And obviously, I am all for free speech. We saw a show on TV the other day on the IKA, which is the new KKK, and my wife said 'why are they not in prison' and I said, free speech means nothing until it's tested by the freedom to say unpopular things, and in the open is the best place to have those sort of views. In the dark, they fester. In the open, they can be mocked and shown for what they are.
josda1000 wrote:
However, are you saying you know more about God than I do?
Well, I've been a Christian for 20 years, and I went to church for a few years before that. Becoming a Christian means having an experience of God. So, I suspect based on your video comments that I have the good fortune to know more about God than you, although I'm not suggesting I deserve any credit for it.
josda1000 wrote:
If I have an opinion on this, and you have a completely different opinion, who is right? Nobody. Nobody is right. It's an idea that has not, and possibly can never, be proven right one way or the other.
The Bible makes specific promises about how God answers, about what physically happens at the point of conversion. Having experienced it for myself, means I at least have the right to think I am right ( even though I don't expect you to believe it just because I say it ). Anyone who believes in God, HAS to believe that their view is right, or why would they hold it ? And, as you say, thinking I am right, means I regard other points of view to be in error.
josda1000 wrote:
Are you afraid that if you believe there is no God here, and you then find out there is, that He won't accept you into His house? I doubt it, as long as you live a principled and good life, and are kind to everyone and do the best you can.
Well, that's a common p
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josda1000 wrote:
I said nothing of happiness.
But, it's the core point. I am willing to bet there's a far greater % of Americans who wish they could afford medical care than there is Australians who desperately wish they could get their 1% back and just not get care if they get sick. Did you know a doctors visit for an overseas visitor here will cost in the vicinity of $35-$60 ? My visit to the doctor in the USA gave me a far lower quality of care than I'd accept from the cheapest doctor here, and cost me hundreds of dollars. It's possible that a government run system would end that level of extortion and force doctors to all provide decent care in the USA, although I don't think it's guarenteed.
josda1000 wrote:
When you have only one insurer, that's going to drive up prices because it's a monopoly.
So why is it that insurance AND visiting the doctor costs so much more in the USA ?
josda1000 wrote:
therefore you can do whatever the hell you want to do without worrying about losing out on business
Except the government is not running the system for profit. I am sure there's a degree of collusion that goes on in the US, for things to be as bad as they are, but having government run it does not run by the same rules as letting one for profit company do it.
josda1000 wrote:
What I'm saying is, in order to get health insurance you will need a job, which will boost the economy because more people will be looking for jobs instead of sitting on their butts because they have everything handed to them.
Well, I am all for complete employment, but some people just find themselves out of work for periods of time. Why should someone die because the local company shut down and filled the local area with job applicants for a time ?
josda1000 wrote:
Like I say, I'm 25, and I shouldn't have to have coverage
And here, you'd have that option in terms of private cover. Odds are, at 25, the 1% you'd pay for Medicare is not a whole lot, and it means if you need a GP, or even if you're in a car accident and need a hospital, you're covered.
josda1000 wrote:
While unemployed, you should still be able to get insurance if you had a job previously and you saved for it.
Christian Graus wrote:
Odds are, at 25, the 1% you'd pay for Medicare is not a whole lot
If you earn less than $17,794 you don't pay the levy. If you earn less than $20,934 but more than $17,794 the levy is reduced. Above $20,934 there is no reduction on the levy. Unless you have a spouse/dependant etc. Medicare levy reduction for people on low incomes[^] Individual income thresholds[^]
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Christian Graus wrote:
Odds are, at 25, the 1% you'd pay for Medicare is not a whole lot
If you earn less than $17,794 you don't pay the levy. If you earn less than $20,934 but more than $17,794 the levy is reduced. Above $20,934 there is no reduction on the levy. Unless you have a spouse/dependant etc. Medicare levy reduction for people on low incomes[^] Individual income thresholds[^]
Rod Kemp wrote:
If you earn less than $17,794 you don't pay the levy. If you earn less than $20,934 but more than $17,794 the levy is reduced. Above $20,934 there is no reduction on the levy. Unless you have a spouse/dependant etc.
Oh, good point. I forgot about those details.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Rod Kemp wrote:
If you earn less than $17,794 you don't pay the levy. If you earn less than $20,934 but more than $17,794 the levy is reduced. Above $20,934 there is no reduction on the levy. Unless you have a spouse/dependant etc.
Oh, good point. I forgot about those details.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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*grin* I have an accountant, so even then, I just pay what I'm told to.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Richard MacCutchan wrote:
Absolute rubbish, the cost of the NHS has more than doubled in the last twelve years.
That's not a relative measure, which is what was offered.
Richard MacCutchan wrote:
And the standard of care has fallen
Perhaps. I don't think the standard of care in Australia is changing. The issue I see the UK having, is too many people on welfare, not enough people putting money into the system. We're not far behind, I admit, but I am not sure we're as bad. But, that's still not a measure relative to the US, which is what was being offered. The person who said it may be wrong, but I don't think you've refuted him.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
That's not a relative measure, which is what was offered.
But on what basis? There are no figures to back this claim, and I doubt that it could be measured. I don't know about the US system, but here in the UK there are many additional and hidden costs so the true measure would be difficult to calculate. Also I don't see how you can measure outcomes. We have a number of hospitals where patients have died from C-difficile, norovirus etc, which had nothing to do with their reason for entering hospital. However, since most health authorities have tried to hide these figures we cannot be sure of the exact numbers. Thus the statement that we get better outcomes at half the cost is impossible to quantify in either country.
txtspeak is the realm of 9 year old children, not developers. Christian Graus
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josda1000 wrote:
No. Pantheism is where nature is all around us; God is all around us. Polytheism is "many gods".
I think you are right. *hangs head in shame*
josda1000 wrote:
But the point is that if governments imprison you for speaking in an unpopular manner, as I do a lot on this site apparently, then that's wrong, it's totalitarian, however you still have not lost your natural right to talk. It doesn't cost you anything to speak, it's part of your humanity.
Yes, that is true. And obviously, I am all for free speech. We saw a show on TV the other day on the IKA, which is the new KKK, and my wife said 'why are they not in prison' and I said, free speech means nothing until it's tested by the freedom to say unpopular things, and in the open is the best place to have those sort of views. In the dark, they fester. In the open, they can be mocked and shown for what they are.
josda1000 wrote:
However, are you saying you know more about God than I do?
Well, I've been a Christian for 20 years, and I went to church for a few years before that. Becoming a Christian means having an experience of God. So, I suspect based on your video comments that I have the good fortune to know more about God than you, although I'm not suggesting I deserve any credit for it.
josda1000 wrote:
If I have an opinion on this, and you have a completely different opinion, who is right? Nobody. Nobody is right. It's an idea that has not, and possibly can never, be proven right one way or the other.
The Bible makes specific promises about how God answers, about what physically happens at the point of conversion. Having experienced it for myself, means I at least have the right to think I am right ( even though I don't expect you to believe it just because I say it ). Anyone who believes in God, HAS to believe that their view is right, or why would they hold it ? And, as you say, thinking I am right, means I regard other points of view to be in error.
josda1000 wrote:
Are you afraid that if you believe there is no God here, and you then find out there is, that He won't accept you into His house? I doubt it, as long as you live a principled and good life, and are kind to everyone and do the best you can.
Well, that's a common p
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Christian Graus wrote:
That's not a relative measure, which is what was offered.
But on what basis? There are no figures to back this claim, and I doubt that it could be measured. I don't know about the US system, but here in the UK there are many additional and hidden costs so the true measure would be difficult to calculate. Also I don't see how you can measure outcomes. We have a number of hospitals where patients have died from C-difficile, norovirus etc, which had nothing to do with their reason for entering hospital. However, since most health authorities have tried to hide these figures we cannot be sure of the exact numbers. Thus the statement that we get better outcomes at half the cost is impossible to quantify in either country.
txtspeak is the realm of 9 year old children, not developers. Christian Graus
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I hope you don't mind Christian but you'll have to wait for me to respond to the two posts, I have been more than busy for the last two weeks... I'll respond later tonight (about 10 hrs from now)
josda1000 wrote:
I hope you don't mind Christian but you'll have to wait for me to respond to the two posts, I have been more than busy for the last two weeks... I'll respond later tonight (about 10 hrs from now)
No problem. You may want to hit the 'email' button and move this to email, for two reasons: 1 - I don't get email notifications, so as this thread gets older, I may forget to look at it 2 - It looks like it's just the two of us now, anyhow. Which means you need an address to email to. Obviously, there are reasons I don't want to make that public, how about I hit the email button to mail you, do you check that account ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.