Subprime mortgage crisis [modified]
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RichardM1 wrote:
By who? The title 'Sub Prime' means 'less than the best', not 'lower than the prime lending rate'. Their very name says they are bad risks.
Yes, the risk was bad, but the loans were structured with a plan to make them profitable for the lender, not with the idea that they would actually be paid off in the normal sense.
RichardM1 wrote:
So you blame the people who were doing what the gov wanted them to do, but not putting any blame on the gov for having them do it?
Ultimately I blame the lack of regulation that would have stopped them doing it. Wanting to open credit to people who have had a bad history is one thing, I am sure the government did not intend for it to pan out as it did. At the end of the day, the lenders did what anyone does, they tried to make a buck. Was it unethical ? Of course. But capitalism has no ethics. The blame is with the government for a lack of regulation.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Ultimately I blame the lack of regulation that would have stopped them doing it.
It was the regulations that enabled the bankers to loot the public. They knew what they were doing, and if they did not then why do we give power to regulators if they can cause so much damage? We need to stick to limited government, let people make their own decisions instead of creating an environment where regulators can manipulate the markets so their banker buddies can loot the public. The federal reserve gave them our own money so that they could create a bubble to pop. This type of thing would be next to impossible if it were not for these manipulations of the market.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Despite all the evidence that it was unfettered capitalism that
There is no evidence that it was unfettered capitalism. It was the federal reserve flooding the market with new money at low interest rates for the bankers to play with, and the government commanding markets to provide subprime loans.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
Yes, we know, you only have one thing to say, so you'll keep saying it. I was referring to the way things were in the late 1800s, I refer you again to the book 'The Jungle' as a reflection of how workers were treated when the government did not defend their rights at all.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Telling banks they need to lend to disadvantaged people is obviously a bad idea.
Yes, it was the regulations (including the regulation of the money supply and who gets the new money) that causes the GFC. What you are proposing would add even more regulations, causing even more problems.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
The adults are talking. Go away. Read a book or something.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote:
where it was assumed that there should be no or little regulation of financial markets
There was regulation of financial markets, those regulations are what caused the GFC.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
You can say it as often as you want, it won't turn your ignorance into facts.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote:
I just said that government is entirely to blame for lack of regulation.
There was no lack of regulation. It was the regulations that caused the GFC. The regulators regulate in favor of the top 1% at the expense of 99% of the public. This is why only free markets work, because once you give anyone power to create money out of thin air and command markets only a small handful of people will benefit.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The regulators regulate in favor of the top 1% at the expense of 99% of the public. This is why only free markets work
This is so stupid. I can't believe you're so ignorant. So, if markets are free, the top 1% won't do whatever they want ( given there's no regulation ) to further their interests, at the cost of the other 99% ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Ultimately I blame the lack of regulation that would have stopped them doing it.
It was the regulations that enabled the bankers to loot the public. They knew what they were doing, and if they did not then why do we give power to regulators if they can cause so much damage? We need to stick to limited government, let people make their own decisions instead of creating an environment where regulators can manipulate the markets so their banker buddies can loot the public. The federal reserve gave them our own money so that they could create a bubble to pop. This type of thing would be next to impossible if it were not for these manipulations of the market.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
We need to stick to limited government, let people make their own decisions instead of creating an environment where regulators can manipulate the markets so their banker buddies can loot the public.
So, you believe that before there was regulation, everyone was better off ? I think you'll find the rich were better off, and the poor were starving to death.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The regulators regulate in favor of the top 1% at the expense of 99% of the public. This is why only free markets work
This is so stupid. I can't believe you're so ignorant. So, if markets are free, the top 1% won't do whatever they want ( given there's no regulation ) to further their interests, at the cost of the other 99% ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
So, if markets are free, the top 1% won't do whatever they want ( given there's no regulation ) to further their interests, at the cost of the other 99% ?
They can't do anything at the cost of everyone else if there were a free market. You ignore the fact that a central bank wouldn't exist in a free market and governments wouldn't be making laws enabling the top 1% to rob the public. Without the manipulations of currency and markets things would even out.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
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Yes, we know, you only have one thing to say, so you'll keep saying it. I was referring to the way things were in the late 1800s, I refer you again to the book 'The Jungle' as a reflection of how workers were treated when the government did not defend their rights at all.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
workers were treated when the government did not defend their rights at all.
There right to what exactly? Private property or personal liberty? What rights in the constitution were being violated?
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
We need to stick to limited government, let people make their own decisions instead of creating an environment where regulators can manipulate the markets so their banker buddies can loot the public.
So, you believe that before there was regulation, everyone was better off ? I think you'll find the rich were better off, and the poor were starving to death.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
So, you believe that before there was regulation, everyone was better off ? I
When we had less regulation in the United States. we were much better off. We produced more, taxes were low, we had sound money, stronger local communities, less crime, less corruption, and lots of opportunity.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
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RichardM1 wrote:
I think that means we need less government.
Despite all the evidence that it was unfettered capitalism that, at the core, motivated the banks to do what they did, to our detriment ?
RichardM1 wrote:
You don't believe it is 100% true, but you are willing to bet they did it?
Encouraging availability of loans to people with a bad past is not the same as going out looking for people who can't pay their loans, and signing them up for short term gain. The difference ? Regulation.
RichardM1 wrote:
That is the thing, Christian. I don't.
It's true, I do wear glasses.
RichardM1 wrote:
Your answer is always more regulation, just flat out more, and you can't see that maybe it should be less, or even just different.
We've had unfettered capitalism before. It didn't work. Why would it now ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Despite all the evidence that it was unfettered capitalism that, at the core, motivated the banks to do what they did, to our detriment ?
What they did to our detriment was skim off what had previously been added by their same shenanigans. But you don't hear that from the pro-regulators, do you? All those trillions lost. They were all fake money to begin with, put there by the same people who were responsible for taking it away. In the end, how much did we really gain or lose? Take a look at net worth and GDP. Can't find net worth numbers, so GDP and DJIA. We got kicked all the way back to 2006 in GDP, and 2005 in GDP/capita - these are constant 2005 dollars[^] Dow Jones is back above 2005 levels, and that was after a huge freaking run from 1982. That is part of the problem. You had people in the financial industry for 20+ years who had never seen a real bad year. The world believed this would go on forever, and congress went right along with them. Growing the government faster than wealth was growing. Really responsible. They are who I want to regulate stuff. Since they know how to keep their own house in order, so well. So, after a Dow < 800 in 1982, it rose to 14,000 in 07/08 almost 20 times, and then we give back a piece of it. Look at this chart[^] of the DJIA since 189x, the log graph on the right. If you draw a line from the 1900 peak through the 1960 peak, we are still above that line. That is what partially fettered capitalism will get you. We have a couple bad years of government interference :laugh: and you want to throw it away. :rolleyes:
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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Yes, we know, you only have one thing to say, so you'll keep saying it. I was referring to the way things were in the late 1800s, I refer you again to the book 'The Jungle' as a reflection of how workers were treated when the government did not defend their rights at all.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote:
workers were treated when the government did not defend their rights at all.
There right to what exactly? Private property or personal liberty? What rights in the constitution were being violated?
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
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please go argue someone else's side of an argument. and seek help, treatment, a shrink session.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
You are the one who is mentally ill, you said it yourself, a majorly depressed maniac on drugs. Calling me mentally ill is a strawman. You are your own worst enemy.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
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I did not want him to get involved. I will continue with my side of the argument. Stiff upper lip and all that. But I know all is lost, since he is now "on my side". :sigh:
Opacity, the new Transparency.
RichardM1 wrote:
But I know all is lost, since he is now "on my side"
You are a victim of mental illness, and drugs are your solution. You are a pathetic defeatist.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
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The adults are talking. Go away. Read a book or something.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
:(( :(( :(( :(( :(( I wish he would get help. This may be a good excuse for me to bow out for the evening. It's after midnight and I have to be at the customer's early.
Christian Graus wrote:
Read a book or something.
:laugh: :laugh: I wasn't going to argue this, too, but we have no evidence that he can read more than a paragraph or two. And not much reason to believe he can even comprehend that much.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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Telling banks they need to lend to disadvantaged people is obviously a bad idea. Telling them that, and NOT controlling how they do it, is obviously worse.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Telling banks they need to lend to disadvantaged people is obviously a bad idea. Telling them that, and NOT controlling how they do it, is obviously worse.
Not telling them, and not controlling them, may even be better. The problem with intervention is you can ALWAYS say there wasn't enough.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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You are the one who is mentally ill, you said it yourself, a majorly depressed maniac on drugs. Calling me mentally ill is a strawman. You are your own worst enemy.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Calling me mentally ill is a strawman.
Calling you mentally ill is the voice of experience. Please Get Help. It will make your life better. On the off chance it does not, it will at least make our lives better.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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:(( :(( :(( :(( :(( I wish he would get help. This may be a good excuse for me to bow out for the evening. It's after midnight and I have to be at the customer's early.
Christian Graus wrote:
Read a book or something.
:laugh: :laugh: I wasn't going to argue this, too, but we have no evidence that he can read more than a paragraph or two. And not much reason to believe he can even comprehend that much.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
RichardM1 wrote:
I wish he would get help.
Judgmentalism is placing others on a lower level to cover one's own inadequacies. "If you would get some counseling yourself, then I think that I could handle the situation." Again, you are the one that is mentally ill, as you said yourself, a majorly depressed maniac.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
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RichardM1 wrote:
But I know all is lost, since he is now "on my side"
You are a victim of mental illness, and drugs are your solution. You are a pathetic defeatist.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You are a victim of mental illness, and drugs are your solution.
No. I have mental illness, but I control it. Unlike you, I am not its victim.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You are a pathetic defeatist.
And yet, I am more functional than you. Get Help Lots of Help.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Calling me mentally ill is a strawman.
Calling you mentally ill is the voice of experience. Please Get Help. It will make your life better. On the off chance it does not, it will at least make our lives better.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
RichardM1 wrote:
On the off chance it does not, it will at least make our lives better.
Again, judgmentalism is placing others on a lower level to cover one's own inadequacies. "If you would get some counseling yourself, then I think that I could handle the situation." You are the drugged mental case, not me.
Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] Sons Of Liberty - Free Album[^] The True Soapbox is the Truthbox[^]