concealed weapons
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ragnaroknrol wrote:
I am a firm believer that everyone within reason (no criminal record) should be allowed a weapon to hunt or defend themselves.
Too me this seems misguided. If a bunch of people who are carrying concealed weapons to "defend themselves" have an argument a fist fight often escalates into something much worse. This happens all the time. Then there's the issue that the more guns that are floating around, even for "legitimate" reasons, increases the chances of one getting into the wrong hands.
Steve
You are a hater of humans, so therefor humans are stupid and pathetic, therefor they are not permitted to defend themselves, they are to be subjects, and they are to serve their masters.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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thrakazog wrote:
But you seem to be implying the presence or absence of guns is the deciding factor on the death/murder rate.
Most people who discuss this with me, suggest that by claiming htat I am less safe than them. CSS did it above.
thrakazog wrote:
I don't think it's anywhere near that easy. I think the largest difference comes from cultural backgrounds, values, etc.
I would agree that there are deeper issues in US society that are more of an issue for you. But, guns sure don't seem to be helping.
thrakazog wrote:
I don't know about Australia(haven't been yet), but there are a whole lot of intolerant angry assholes in America. I'd be willing to bet if you could calculate it, the percentage of angry assholes would track nicely with the murder rate. With or without guns.
The number of school shootings between the nations is a decent statistic of deaths that would not occur if kids could not get access to guns, but I'm sure your theory also holds water.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
The number of school shootings between the nations is a decent statistic of deaths that would not occur if kids could not get access to guns, but I'm sure your theory also holds water.
To add to this, it's also largely ignored or dismissed that access to firearms is a profound risk factor for completed suicide. N Engl J Med. 2008 Sep 4;359(10):989-91. Guns and suicide in the United States. Miller M, Hemenway D. Harvard Injury Control Research Center, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, USA. Three additional findings from the case–control studies are worth noting. The higher risk of suicide in homes with firearms applies not only to the gun owner but also to the gun owner's spouse and children. The presence of a gun in the home, no matter how the gun is stored, is a risk factor for completed suicide. and The empirical evidence linking suicide risk in the United States to the presence of firearms in the home is compelling. ... The association between guns in the home and the risk of suicide is due entirely to a large increase in the risk of suicide by firearm that is not counterbalanced by a reduced risk of nonfirearm suicide. Moreover, the increased risk of suicide is not explained by increased psychopathologic characteristics, suicidal ideation, or suicide attempts among members of gun-owning households. and Why might the availability of firearms increase the risk of suicide in the United States? First, many suicidal acts — one third to four fifths of all suicide attempts, according to studies — are impulsive. Among people who made near-lethal suicide attempts, for example, 24% took less than 5 minutes between the decision to kill themselves and the actual attempt, and 70% took less than 1 hour.2 Second, many suicidal crises are self-limiting. ... more than 90% of people who survive a suicide attempt, including attempts that were expected to be lethal (such as shooting oneself in the head or jumping in front of a train), do not go on to die by suicide. Third, guns are common in the United States (more than one third of U.S. households contain a firearm) and are lethal. A suicide attempt with a firearm rarely affords a second chance. Attempts involving drugs or cutting, which account for more than 90% of all suicidal acts, prove fatal far less often. are some choice tidbits. Owning a gun is a risk-benefit scenario as the article above points out but I h
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Christian Graus wrote:
The number of school shootings between the nations is a decent statistic of deaths that would not occur if kids could not get access to guns, but I'm sure your theory also holds water.
To add to this, it's also largely ignored or dismissed that access to firearms is a profound risk factor for completed suicide. N Engl J Med. 2008 Sep 4;359(10):989-91. Guns and suicide in the United States. Miller M, Hemenway D. Harvard Injury Control Research Center, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, USA. Three additional findings from the case–control studies are worth noting. The higher risk of suicide in homes with firearms applies not only to the gun owner but also to the gun owner's spouse and children. The presence of a gun in the home, no matter how the gun is stored, is a risk factor for completed suicide. and The empirical evidence linking suicide risk in the United States to the presence of firearms in the home is compelling. ... The association between guns in the home and the risk of suicide is due entirely to a large increase in the risk of suicide by firearm that is not counterbalanced by a reduced risk of nonfirearm suicide. Moreover, the increased risk of suicide is not explained by increased psychopathologic characteristics, suicidal ideation, or suicide attempts among members of gun-owning households. and Why might the availability of firearms increase the risk of suicide in the United States? First, many suicidal acts — one third to four fifths of all suicide attempts, according to studies — are impulsive. Among people who made near-lethal suicide attempts, for example, 24% took less than 5 minutes between the decision to kill themselves and the actual attempt, and 70% took less than 1 hour.2 Second, many suicidal crises are self-limiting. ... more than 90% of people who survive a suicide attempt, including attempts that were expected to be lethal (such as shooting oneself in the head or jumping in front of a train), do not go on to die by suicide. Third, guns are common in the United States (more than one third of U.S. households contain a firearm) and are lethal. A suicide attempt with a firearm rarely affords a second chance. Attempts involving drugs or cutting, which account for more than 90% of all suicidal acts, prove fatal far less often. are some choice tidbits. Owning a gun is a risk-benefit scenario as the article above points out but I h
Really the real cause of the suicides is antidepressants and the like that explicitly state that a major side-effect is suicide. Give me a fucking break. People are so miserable because of the chemicalized foods, destructive drugs pushed by doctors and governments, and rampant tyranny causing great misery to the people.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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Really the real cause of the suicides is antidepressants and the like that explicitly state that a major side-effect is suicide. Give me a fucking break. People are so miserable because of the chemicalized foods, destructive drugs pushed by doctors and governments, and rampant tyranny causing great misery to the people.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Really the real cause of the suicides is antidepressants and the like that explicitly state that a major side-effect is suicide.
Perhaps this is a factor, but not every suicide is on these drugs.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
People are so miserable because of the chemicalized foods, destructive drugs pushed by doctors and governments, and rampant tyranny causing great misery to the people.
Well, what do you expect ? Do you want to take away their freedom to eat what they want, demand the drugs they want of thier doctors, etc ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Really the real cause of the suicides is antidepressants and the like that explicitly state that a major side-effect is suicide.
Perhaps this is a factor, but not every suicide is on these drugs.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
People are so miserable because of the chemicalized foods, destructive drugs pushed by doctors and governments, and rampant tyranny causing great misery to the people.
Well, what do you expect ? Do you want to take away their freedom to eat what they want, demand the drugs they want of thier doctors, etc ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
Well, what do you expect ?
I expect media to report on how the chemicals in the food cause health problems, and how the culture is based on garbage designed to make young people feel bad about themselves and to worship whorish celebrates.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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You are a hater of humans, so therefor humans are stupid and pathetic, therefor they are not permitted to defend themselves, they are to be subjects, and they are to serve their masters.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You are a hater of humans
Haters of humans and human nature are more likely to be pro-gun. You seem to be jumping to unwarranted conclusions. Instead of getting all excited:
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You are a hater of humans
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
not permitted to defend themselves
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
they are to be subjects
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
serve their masters
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
humans are stupid and pathetic,
why not argue the point, which is this. The guns are causing more problems than they're solving! You just need to look at the deaths by firearms statistics in your country to see that. It would be nice to live in fairy land where guns never fall into the wrong hands, but we live in the real world. Compare how many foreign invasions have been fought off to the numerous less desirable consequences of the right to bear arms.
Steve
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On numerous occasions I've had people justify concealed weapons or the right to have guns with crime control. Never have I heard them address issues of accidental shootings other than to dismiss them without much reason. This is only based on conversations I've had with both gun control people and pro gun people. This isn't a statistical discussion, but an observation.
RichardM1 wrote:
Show me the accidental shooting statistics that approach that.
I don't need to because that's not what the discussion is about. Opposing views is what I'm getting at and how people clash by them.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
modified on Thursday, April 29, 2010 12:16 PM
wolfbinary wrote:
On numerous occasions I've had people justify concealed weapons or the right to have guns with crime control. Never have I heard them address issues of accidental shootings other than to dismiss them without much reason.
wolfbinary wrote:
I don't need to because that's not what the discussion is about. Opposing views is what I'm getting at and how people clash by them.
That is true. You have a totally unbiased presentation here. That is why you presented a case where you show that people justifying concealed weapons don't address the issues you think should be. When I was looking for statistics, I found only one person accidentally killed by someone with a permit, over the space of years, I have heard of many more cases of people rescued from harm because of people with a permit (and a gun). So, if that is true, are you willing to put it the other way? You are a gun controller who is willing to make a big deal about concealed gun carry safety issues, and to dismiss crime prevention statistics without much reason.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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ragnaroknrol wrote:
I am a firm believer that everyone within reason (no criminal record) should be allowed a weapon to hunt or defend themselves.
Too me this seems misguided. If a bunch of people who are carrying concealed weapons to "defend themselves" have an argument a fist fight often escalates into something much worse. This happens all the time. Then there's the issue that the more guns that are floating around, even for "legitimate" reasons, increases the chances of one getting into the wrong hands.
Steve
Hey, I'm not on CSS's side.
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
If a bunch of people who are carrying concealed weapons to "defend themselves" have an argument a fist fight often escalates into something much worse. This happens all the time.
Look up statistics on the use of legally concealed weapons for crimes, all crimes, not just fight escalating to fire fight. It does not happen "all the time". It almost never happens. Except in the Hollywood version of reality. You like a lot of action movies, Steve?
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
increases the chances of one getting into the wrong hands.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: The wrong hands already have them. It's getting them into the right hands that counts.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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thrakazog wrote:
But you seem to be implying the presence or absence of guns is the deciding factor on the death/murder rate.
Most people who discuss this with me, suggest that by claiming htat I am less safe than them. CSS did it above.
thrakazog wrote:
I don't think it's anywhere near that easy. I think the largest difference comes from cultural backgrounds, values, etc.
I would agree that there are deeper issues in US society that are more of an issue for you. But, guns sure don't seem to be helping.
thrakazog wrote:
I don't know about Australia(haven't been yet), but there are a whole lot of intolerant angry assholes in America. I'd be willing to bet if you could calculate it, the percentage of angry assholes would track nicely with the murder rate. With or without guns.
The number of school shootings between the nations is a decent statistic of deaths that would not occur if kids could not get access to guns, but I'm sure your theory also holds water.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
I would agree that there are deeper issues in US society that are more of an issue for you. But, guns sure don't seem to be helping.
Christian, you prattle on about how messed up America is, ALL the time. Clean up your own country, then come back. What? Really? Nothing bad ever happens in Oz and NZ? Why what an amazing place to live. :rolleyes: Extol that upside down place's virtues instead of whining about the US, OK?
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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Really the real cause of the suicides is antidepressants and the like that explicitly state that a major side-effect is suicide. Give me a fucking break. People are so miserable because of the chemicalized foods, destructive drugs pushed by doctors and governments, and rampant tyranny causing great misery to the people.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
And the real cause of flue deaths is the vaccine. And the real cause of automobile deaths is seat belts and air bags. And the real cause of cancer deaths is chemo. Do you have any idea why the chance of suicide goes up during the initial period of use?
Opacity, the new Transparency.
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I have to say the gun rights and the justifications for having or banning/controling them fascinate me. For every episode of concealed weapons I can find an accidental shooting. Case in point for the midwest and roughly the center of the US. http://www.omaha.com/article/20100429/NEWS01/704299847[^] Then the accidental shooting. http://www.ketv.com/news/23265294/detail.html[^] Now both are used as examples of defending gun rights and banning gun rights. I'm not much for statistics since those who create them tend to only find the ones that justifies their point of view and not look for the truth, but then again that's just my opinion.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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Christian Graus wrote:
Well, what do you expect ?
I expect media to report on how the chemicals in the food cause health problems, and how the culture is based on garbage designed to make young people feel bad about themselves and to worship whorish celebrates.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
I expect media to report on how the chemicals in the food cause health problems
So you're against free markets and capitalism ?
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
and how the culture is based on garbage designed to make young people feel bad about themselves and to worship whorish celebrates.
You think that happened by accident ? People choose to be influenced that way. I'm not, because I choose not to be. You want to start a socialist country that tells people what they are allowed to think ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote:
I would agree that there are deeper issues in US society that are more of an issue for you. But, guns sure don't seem to be helping.
Christian, you prattle on about how messed up America is, ALL the time. Clean up your own country, then come back. What? Really? Nothing bad ever happens in Oz and NZ? Why what an amazing place to live. :rolleyes: Extol that upside down place's virtues instead of whining about the US, OK?
Opacity, the new Transparency.
RichardM1 wrote:
Christian, you prattle on about how messed up America is, ALL the time.
Not really. Just when I mention something in passing ( and I did not start this thread ), all the Americans get upset and cry a bit.
RichardM1 wrote:
Clean up your own country, then come back.
Why ? Are you saying that I am not allowed to notice problems in other countries unless where I live has no problems ? What logic is that ?
RichardM1 wrote:
What? Really? Nothing bad ever happens in Oz and NZ?
Amusingly, I never claimed that. However, having spent a lot of time in the US does give me perspective and enough experience to comment on the ways Australia is better than the US ( no gun nuts, we are not so stupid as to let drug companies advertise on TV, etc ). I can also comment on ways the US is better than Australia. It's just that, to be honest, there's three Aussies who are regulars around here ( maybe 4 ) and so it tends that the majority tend to discuss their own country, leaving me to just throw in my opinion. I've posted plenty on my thoughts of how our welfare system is abused here, for example, so don't tell me I never criticise my country.
RichardM1 wrote:
Extol that upside down place's virtues instead of whining about the US, OK?
The problem is, you assume that any criticism about US is 'anti American' and designed to promote where I live, and it's not. The rest of the world doesn't look at life the way you do, and sometimes it's hard for us to keep that in mind.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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In the UK our gun death rate per capita is (approximately) 1/50th of the US. A rough guide but still...
Join the cool kids - Come fold with us[^]
That must be because you have no freedom....
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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wolfbinary wrote:
On numerous occasions I've had people justify concealed weapons or the right to have guns with crime control. Never have I heard them address issues of accidental shootings other than to dismiss them without much reason.
wolfbinary wrote:
I don't need to because that's not what the discussion is about. Opposing views is what I'm getting at and how people clash by them.
That is true. You have a totally unbiased presentation here. That is why you presented a case where you show that people justifying concealed weapons don't address the issues you think should be. When I was looking for statistics, I found only one person accidentally killed by someone with a permit, over the space of years, I have heard of many more cases of people rescued from harm because of people with a permit (and a gun). So, if that is true, are you willing to put it the other way? You are a gun controller who is willing to make a big deal about concealed gun carry safety issues, and to dismiss crime prevention statistics without much reason.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
According to the CDC, the number of accidental shooting deaths in 2006, the last year they have numbers, was 642. They do not seem to keep track of how many of those were the result of a registered firearm being used. You're making a different distinction, 'killed by someone with a permit'. This would exclude, for example, if a man has a permit and his son plays with the gun. However, if that happens, it's a death caused by the policy of letting people own firearms, so I think it's still meaningful. Please explain how you can only find one death in the space of years, when the CDC can find 5,150 from 2000 to 2006 ( I'm making some assumptions on your use of the word 'years', their data goes before 2000 ), and doesn't seem to track which guns were registered. What's your source of data ? Knock yourself out[^]
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Hey, I'm not on CSS's side.
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
If a bunch of people who are carrying concealed weapons to "defend themselves" have an argument a fist fight often escalates into something much worse. This happens all the time.
Look up statistics on the use of legally concealed weapons for crimes, all crimes, not just fight escalating to fire fight. It does not happen "all the time". It almost never happens. Except in the Hollywood version of reality. You like a lot of action movies, Steve?
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
increases the chances of one getting into the wrong hands.
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: The wrong hands already have them. It's getting them into the right hands that counts.
Opacity, the new Transparency.
RichardM1 wrote:
Look up statistics on the use of legally concealed weapons for crimes
But if you flood society with 'legal' guns, you make it easier for criminals to get them.
RichardM1 wrote:
The wrong hands already have them. It's getting them into the right hands that counts.
Do you have any statistics on the mythically common occurence of US gun owners shooting to defend their life or property ? If it does keep your crime rates lower, why are they so high still ? 'The wrong hands have them' is a furphy, as if flooding society makes no difference, because criminals can just pray to the gun fairy and get guns that way.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Well, what do you expect ?
I expect media to report on how the chemicals in the food cause health problems, and how the culture is based on garbage designed to make young people feel bad about themselves and to worship whorish celebrates.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
I expect media to report on how the chemicals in the food cause health problems
You mean it isn't taught in schools? But, of course, you wouldn't know, you never paid attention.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
how the culture is based on garbage designed to make young people feel bad about themselves and to worship whorish celebrates
No. It is designed to make people (of all ages) feel good about themselves when they use product xx..x. It is all about consumption, and suicides don't consume. Whorish celebrates celebrities? You don't believe that women have as much right to enjoy their sexuality as men? And why do you begrudge people a period of celebrity, no matter how undeserved? They do you no harm, just pay them no heed. A sad old Puritan at 22. :( No wonder you are suicidal.
Bob Emmett CSS: I don't intend to be a technical writing, I intend to be a software engineer.
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Christian Graus wrote:
I would agree that there are deeper issues in US society that are more of an issue for you. But, guns sure don't seem to be helping.
Christian, you prattle on about how messed up America is, ALL the time. Clean up your own country, then come back. What? Really? Nothing bad ever happens in Oz and NZ? Why what an amazing place to live. :rolleyes: Extol that upside down place's virtues instead of whining about the US, OK?
Opacity, the new Transparency.
-
Really the real cause of the suicides is antidepressants and the like that explicitly state that a major side-effect is suicide. Give me a fucking break. People are so miserable because of the chemicalized foods, destructive drugs pushed by doctors and governments, and rampant tyranny causing great misery to the people.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Really the real cause of the suicides is antidepressants and the like that explicitly state that a major side-effect is suicide.
Or it could be that using a chemical to motivate someone who sees no reason to live is not the brightest of ideas. Chemicals fix certain reactions, psychology is it's own beast and generally the real problem. That said, if it isn't serious I generally avoid pills myself. If it's something you can actually deal with, perhaps use the pill to get it under control, then ween yourself off of it. Barring serious medical conditions there's not to many reasons to down pills beyond convenience.
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Christian Graus wrote:
Well, what do you expect ?
I expect media to report on how the chemicals in the food cause health problems, and how the culture is based on garbage designed to make young people feel bad about themselves and to worship whorish celebrates.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
Here's an idea, fuck the culture, fix your dinner and ignore what ever stupid crap the idiot you work with spouts off(because I'm fairly sure we all have at least one celebrity stalker in the work area). It's not that hard, and it's surprisingly rewarding. It's amazing what taking individual responsibility for your life can do.