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  4. MSNBC: EU Bailout is a robbery

MSNBC: EU Bailout is a robbery

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  • N Nagy Vilmos

    Okay nob-head, the only sorces I have on this are not quotable due to the statements being made under 'Chatham House' rules. But what i can tell you is the the ECB and IMF have already discounted the facilty [please check up what that means, it is not a bailout] based on the risk of default. The perceived chance is obviously increased by the amount that will be drawn down. If Greece draws down it's entire facility, which is highly unlikely considering it's more than 10x what was considered the maximum they would need, the chance of default is around 30%. Yup, every euro becomes 70 cents. But those figures, which come from a lot more reliable source then you could dream of having, actually reflect how low the risks are. The huge favilities that have been provided are there so that they won't need to borrow. I know it's confusing for your little drug-addled mind, but the larger the facility the less likely they are to need to use it. If you've borrowed $100 from me and I find out you're only making 50 bucks a week, I'd be worried that you couldn't pay me back in a month as promissed, so I'd put pressure on you and you'd end up paying me early and finding you couldn't pay your crack dealer or something. Now imagine your Mom came to me and said she has $1,000 dollars and should you need some you can borrow it, do you think I would be as worried about getting my mney back?


    Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. or "Drink. Get drunk. Fall over." - P O'H

    R Offline
    R Offline
    RichardM1
    wrote on last edited by
    #22

    Nagy Vilmos wrote:

    'Chatham House' rules

    I understand what you are trying to say, but even CSS can make that same claim. If he understands it (issues with google...).

    Opacity, the new Transparency.

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    • R RichardM1

      Nagy Vilmos wrote:

      'Chatham House' rules

      I understand what you are trying to say, but even CSS can make that same claim. If he understands it (issues with google...).

      Opacity, the new Transparency.

      N Offline
      N Offline
      Nagy Vilmos
      wrote on last edited by
      #23

      RichardM1 wrote:

      but even CSS can make that same claim.

      Yes, but he doesn't go to Chatham House...


      Panic, Chaos, Destruction. My work here is done. or "Drink. Get drunk. Fall over." - P O'H

      1 Reply Last reply
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      • R RichardM1

        Bob Emmett wrote:

        If you hadn't 'cleaned up our mess', things would have resolved themselves differently, that's all.

        Ja, Sie sprechen Deutsch.

        Opacity, the new Transparency.

        L Offline
        L Offline
        Lost User
        wrote on last edited by
        #24

        RichardM1 wrote:

        Ja, Sie sprechen Deutsch.

        Or Russian - so what?

        Bob Emmett

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        • L Lost User

          RichardM1 wrote:

          Ja, Sie sprechen Deutsch.

          Or Russian - so what?

          Bob Emmett

          R Offline
          R Offline
          RichardM1
          wrote on last edited by
          #25

          И я понял, вы не понимаете, и действительно пользоваться свободами, у вас есть, в качестве британского подданного.* Is it true? You don't see the difference between living as a Brit, as you do know, versus if Germany had won WWII, or if Russia had won the Cold War? :omg: :wtf: *And I realized, you do not understand and really enjoy the freedoms you have, as a British citizen.

          Opacity, the new Transparency.

          L 1 Reply Last reply
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          • R RichardM1

            И я понял, вы не понимаете, и действительно пользоваться свободами, у вас есть, в качестве британского подданного.* Is it true? You don't see the difference between living as a Brit, as you do know, versus if Germany had won WWII, or if Russia had won the Cold War? :omg: :wtf: *And I realized, you do not understand and really enjoy the freedoms you have, as a British citizen.

            Opacity, the new Transparency.

            L Offline
            L Offline
            Lost User
            wrote on last edited by
            #26

            RichardM1 wrote:

            And I realized, you do not understand and really enjoy the freedoms you have, as a British citizen.

            You supposed, rather than realized. But if a united Europe (i.e. with Britain and France) under the Germans had, together with Japan, trounced the USSR, or vice versa, the alternative 'me' would never have known of those freedoms. Thanks to the relatively accurate information available to me, I can compare and contrast my probable life under fascism or 'communism' with that which I have enjoyed. Given the nature of these regimes, it is likely that such information would not have been available to the alternative 'me' - so how would I have known what I was missing? BTW: Given the current erosion of freedom occasioned by acts of terrorism, how free would a USA surrounded by the British, Dutch, French, Japanese, Russian, ... colonial Empires - under the control of Adolf or Joe - have been, do you suppose?

            Bob Emmett

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            • L Lost User

              RichardM1 wrote:

              And I realized, you do not understand and really enjoy the freedoms you have, as a British citizen.

              You supposed, rather than realized. But if a united Europe (i.e. with Britain and France) under the Germans had, together with Japan, trounced the USSR, or vice versa, the alternative 'me' would never have known of those freedoms. Thanks to the relatively accurate information available to me, I can compare and contrast my probable life under fascism or 'communism' with that which I have enjoyed. Given the nature of these regimes, it is likely that such information would not have been available to the alternative 'me' - so how would I have known what I was missing? BTW: Given the current erosion of freedom occasioned by acts of terrorism, how free would a USA surrounded by the British, Dutch, French, Japanese, Russian, ... colonial Empires - under the control of Adolf or Joe - have been, do you suppose?

              Bob Emmett

              R Offline
              R Offline
              RichardM1
              wrote on last edited by
              #27

              Wow. Not even specious. That is the absolute lamest excuse for an argument I have ever seen. I don't think I've seen anything this sophomoric since, well, ever. Utterly amazing that you would think to use this as an argument. By your argument, you are OK with dying yesterday, because today, you would not know you had died. You, not some hypothetical, alternate history, totalitarian state controlled you, but YOU, seem to think it is OK if YOU are a slave, if you didn't know any different. You would be totally fine with being low man in the USSR or Nazi Germany. And YOU know it is screwed up. Do you really expect me to believe you are that messed up? If so, lets get started - Bitch, iron my shirt.

              Bob Emmett wrote:

              You supposed, rather than realized.

              I supposed you had some kind of an argument. When I read this, I realized you don't. I stand by what I wrote. Based on not caring if you are a Nazi a Commie or a Torrie... I realized you do not understand and really enjoy the freedoms you have. At ALL

              Bob Emmett wrote:

              BTW: Given the current erosion of freedom occasioned by acts of terrorism, how free would a USA surrounded by the British, Dutch, French, Japanese, Russian, ... colonial Empires - under the control of Adolf or Joe - have been, do you suppose?

              I fight against the erosion happening now. I do not think that more erosion for other reasons is any better. I don't know if it would be worse - there is a definite enemy in that case. Now, there is no distinguishing the enemy from the civilians. I suppose there, we would not give a crap about happening to kill a civilian or five thousand, just to kill a Brit, or a Jap, the threat would be more real, and people would not be apologists for the enemy.

              Opacity, the new Transparency.

              L 2 Replies Last reply
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              • R RichardM1

                Wow. Not even specious. That is the absolute lamest excuse for an argument I have ever seen. I don't think I've seen anything this sophomoric since, well, ever. Utterly amazing that you would think to use this as an argument. By your argument, you are OK with dying yesterday, because today, you would not know you had died. You, not some hypothetical, alternate history, totalitarian state controlled you, but YOU, seem to think it is OK if YOU are a slave, if you didn't know any different. You would be totally fine with being low man in the USSR or Nazi Germany. And YOU know it is screwed up. Do you really expect me to believe you are that messed up? If so, lets get started - Bitch, iron my shirt.

                Bob Emmett wrote:

                You supposed, rather than realized.

                I supposed you had some kind of an argument. When I read this, I realized you don't. I stand by what I wrote. Based on not caring if you are a Nazi a Commie or a Torrie... I realized you do not understand and really enjoy the freedoms you have. At ALL

                Bob Emmett wrote:

                BTW: Given the current erosion of freedom occasioned by acts of terrorism, how free would a USA surrounded by the British, Dutch, French, Japanese, Russian, ... colonial Empires - under the control of Adolf or Joe - have been, do you suppose?

                I fight against the erosion happening now. I do not think that more erosion for other reasons is any better. I don't know if it would be worse - there is a definite enemy in that case. Now, there is no distinguishing the enemy from the civilians. I suppose there, we would not give a crap about happening to kill a civilian or five thousand, just to kill a Brit, or a Jap, the threat would be more real, and people would not be apologists for the enemy.

                Opacity, the new Transparency.

                L Offline
                L Offline
                Lost User
                wrote on last edited by
                #28

                Sounds to me that you are wanting Britain, and other countries, to be forever in the debt of the United States. Just how deep do you want Britain and others to bow to the miracle that is Uncle Sam ???? The British WWII debt to the United States has been paid, and paid in full. Don't forget, it was Germany who declared war on the United States, and only then because of Japanese attacks on Pearl Harbour. That is what brought the United States into WWII. Until then, you were more than happy to take a more or less neutral stance with respect to the then plight of Britain, the Free French, and other countries around the world. Yes, the United States had a positive impact in Europe after you were brought into that war. And afterwards, with the Nazi's gone, two competing political theologies, and their armed forces, faced each other with distrust. Thus the cold war that required the United States to retain a large presence in Europe to protect the interests, chiefly, of the United States. If the United States did not have any of the many interests in Europe after the conclusion of WWII they would have returned all of their forces home. So for mutual benefit, and as a buffer against these Communists, it was United States self interest to retain a presence here. If Pearl Harbour and the German declaration of war had not happened, the here and now of today would be very much different, and how much difference would be speculative which it probably what Bob was getting at.

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                • L Lost User

                  Sounds to me that you are wanting Britain, and other countries, to be forever in the debt of the United States. Just how deep do you want Britain and others to bow to the miracle that is Uncle Sam ???? The British WWII debt to the United States has been paid, and paid in full. Don't forget, it was Germany who declared war on the United States, and only then because of Japanese attacks on Pearl Harbour. That is what brought the United States into WWII. Until then, you were more than happy to take a more or less neutral stance with respect to the then plight of Britain, the Free French, and other countries around the world. Yes, the United States had a positive impact in Europe after you were brought into that war. And afterwards, with the Nazi's gone, two competing political theologies, and their armed forces, faced each other with distrust. Thus the cold war that required the United States to retain a large presence in Europe to protect the interests, chiefly, of the United States. If the United States did not have any of the many interests in Europe after the conclusion of WWII they would have returned all of their forces home. So for mutual benefit, and as a buffer against these Communists, it was United States self interest to retain a presence here. If Pearl Harbour and the German declaration of war had not happened, the here and now of today would be very much different, and how much difference would be speculative which it probably what Bob was getting at.

                  R Offline
                  R Offline
                  RichardM1
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #29

                  Richard A. Abbott wrote:

                  Sounds to me

                  Then you are not listening. I didn't say anyone owed us anything (except as noted below), and I appreciate the ally most of the UK has been. Hell, we stole most of a continent (North America) from Britain, and we still get to be allies. :laugh: I am just astounded that Bob is so unwilling to think anything good of the US that he says it would not bother him to live in a Nazi or Soviet occupied Britain, as opposed to saying a single good thing came from the US. That is pretty pathological.

                  Richard A. Abbott wrote:

                  That is what brought the United States into WWII. Until then, you were more than happy to take a more or less neutral stance with respect to the then plight of Britain, the Free French, and other countries around the world.

                  Don't play these silly ass revisionist games, they are just stupid. We had been selling arms and armaments to non Axis forces weapons since '39. We called out our National Guard in 1940 and started expanding the military to 1.5 million men. We gave you and France a bunch of ammo and 50 destroyers in 1940. Eagle squadrons were formed in September 1940. Flying Tigers in the same time frame. Lend-lease started in March, 1941. We took over for your troops in Iceland in mid'41, freeing them up to fight. But you don't owe us anything. Except the truth.

                  Richard A. Abbott wrote:

                  Thus the cold war that required the United States to retain a large presence in Europe to protect the interests, chiefly, of the United States.

                  :doh: :confused: What interests were those? Other than you and people like you? Are you just as willing as Bob to live under Communist rule? :rolleyes: It was in everyone's best interest, but more yours than ours. We would not have lived under the Soviet thumb. You may have had the Channel for protection, but we had the whole Atlantic, or at least the Bering Straight and a hunk of Canada.

                  Opacity, the new Transparency.

                  B L 3 Replies Last reply
                  0
                  • L Lost User

                    Sounds to me that you are wanting Britain, and other countries, to be forever in the debt of the United States. Just how deep do you want Britain and others to bow to the miracle that is Uncle Sam ???? The British WWII debt to the United States has been paid, and paid in full. Don't forget, it was Germany who declared war on the United States, and only then because of Japanese attacks on Pearl Harbour. That is what brought the United States into WWII. Until then, you were more than happy to take a more or less neutral stance with respect to the then plight of Britain, the Free French, and other countries around the world. Yes, the United States had a positive impact in Europe after you were brought into that war. And afterwards, with the Nazi's gone, two competing political theologies, and their armed forces, faced each other with distrust. Thus the cold war that required the United States to retain a large presence in Europe to protect the interests, chiefly, of the United States. If the United States did not have any of the many interests in Europe after the conclusion of WWII they would have returned all of their forces home. So for mutual benefit, and as a buffer against these Communists, it was United States self interest to retain a presence here. If Pearl Harbour and the German declaration of war had not happened, the here and now of today would be very much different, and how much difference would be speculative which it probably what Bob was getting at.

                    R Offline
                    R Offline
                    RichardM1
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #30

                    Sorry, repost.

                    Opacity, the new Transparency.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    0
                    • R RichardM1

                      Richard A. Abbott wrote:

                      Sounds to me

                      Then you are not listening. I didn't say anyone owed us anything (except as noted below), and I appreciate the ally most of the UK has been. Hell, we stole most of a continent (North America) from Britain, and we still get to be allies. :laugh: I am just astounded that Bob is so unwilling to think anything good of the US that he says it would not bother him to live in a Nazi or Soviet occupied Britain, as opposed to saying a single good thing came from the US. That is pretty pathological.

                      Richard A. Abbott wrote:

                      That is what brought the United States into WWII. Until then, you were more than happy to take a more or less neutral stance with respect to the then plight of Britain, the Free French, and other countries around the world.

                      Don't play these silly ass revisionist games, they are just stupid. We had been selling arms and armaments to non Axis forces weapons since '39. We called out our National Guard in 1940 and started expanding the military to 1.5 million men. We gave you and France a bunch of ammo and 50 destroyers in 1940. Eagle squadrons were formed in September 1940. Flying Tigers in the same time frame. Lend-lease started in March, 1941. We took over for your troops in Iceland in mid'41, freeing them up to fight. But you don't owe us anything. Except the truth.

                      Richard A. Abbott wrote:

                      Thus the cold war that required the United States to retain a large presence in Europe to protect the interests, chiefly, of the United States.

                      :doh: :confused: What interests were those? Other than you and people like you? Are you just as willing as Bob to live under Communist rule? :rolleyes: It was in everyone's best interest, but more yours than ours. We would not have lived under the Soviet thumb. You may have had the Channel for protection, but we had the whole Atlantic, or at least the Bering Straight and a hunk of Canada.

                      Opacity, the new Transparency.

                      B Offline
                      B Offline
                      Bergholt Stuttley Johnson
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #31

                      I have a big respect for the US but need to correct a few things

                      RichardM1 wrote:

                      We had been selling arms and armaments to non Axis forces weapons since '39.

                      and to axis, although I admit to a far lesser degree, however IBM were providing equipement and technology to germany well into 40 (and to the end of the war as a german subsiduary)

                      RichardM1 wrote:

                      We gave you and France a bunch of ammo and 50 destroyers in 1940.

                      no, in 1940 we were still required to PAY for all these items, and those 4 stackers cost the british govenment more than a new H class did despite there age (but as you will point out beggers cannot be choosers)

                      RichardM1 wrote:

                      Eagle squadrons were formed in September 1940.

                      this was a wholely RAF squadron that was made up of US pilots who defide thier govenment to join! what is conviently forgotton is that lend lease was introduced because you had drained the liquid assets. and that it took until the 1990s to finish paying you back. There was a lot on money made in the US from the war, overall you were the only country involved that made a profit and we were the only country NOT to default on its debt. and there is room for resentment in our treatment, firstly you had a embassador to the court of st james that alledgely provided the germans with intelligence.

                      You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start

                      R 1 Reply Last reply
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                      • R RichardM1

                        Richard A. Abbott wrote:

                        Sounds to me

                        Then you are not listening. I didn't say anyone owed us anything (except as noted below), and I appreciate the ally most of the UK has been. Hell, we stole most of a continent (North America) from Britain, and we still get to be allies. :laugh: I am just astounded that Bob is so unwilling to think anything good of the US that he says it would not bother him to live in a Nazi or Soviet occupied Britain, as opposed to saying a single good thing came from the US. That is pretty pathological.

                        Richard A. Abbott wrote:

                        That is what brought the United States into WWII. Until then, you were more than happy to take a more or less neutral stance with respect to the then plight of Britain, the Free French, and other countries around the world.

                        Don't play these silly ass revisionist games, they are just stupid. We had been selling arms and armaments to non Axis forces weapons since '39. We called out our National Guard in 1940 and started expanding the military to 1.5 million men. We gave you and France a bunch of ammo and 50 destroyers in 1940. Eagle squadrons were formed in September 1940. Flying Tigers in the same time frame. Lend-lease started in March, 1941. We took over for your troops in Iceland in mid'41, freeing them up to fight. But you don't owe us anything. Except the truth.

                        Richard A. Abbott wrote:

                        Thus the cold war that required the United States to retain a large presence in Europe to protect the interests, chiefly, of the United States.

                        :doh: :confused: What interests were those? Other than you and people like you? Are you just as willing as Bob to live under Communist rule? :rolleyes: It was in everyone's best interest, but more yours than ours. We would not have lived under the Soviet thumb. You may have had the Channel for protection, but we had the whole Atlantic, or at least the Bering Straight and a hunk of Canada.

                        Opacity, the new Transparency.

                        L Offline
                        L Offline
                        Lost User
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #32

                        RichardM1 wrote:

                        Are you just as willing as Bob to live under Communist rule?

                        No and neither did Bob say that. What I said was [quote] If Pearl Harbour and the German declaration of war had not happened, the here and now of today would be very much different, and how much difference would be speculative which it probably what Bob was getting at. [/quote] It is likely that Soviet expansion might not have occurred at all if it had not been for (1) WWII and (2) the politics that came after WWII where, as I said, [quote] And afterwards, with the Nazi's gone, two competing political theologies, and their armed forces, faced each other with distrust. Thus the cold war that required the United States to retain a large presence in Europe to protect the interests, chiefly, of the United States. [/quote]

                        RichardM1 wrote:

                        but we had the whole Atlantic

                        Yes you did. And your industry that manufactured the armaments as used in all WWII theatres were immune from enemy action. Your industry was unscathed - the German or Japanese military did not have the ability to harm your industry. Mind you, there were many who were terribly worried that Japan might visit America's west coast with force after Pearl Harbour - you were somewhat exposed in those dark days!

                        RichardM1 wrote:

                        Don't play these silly ass revisionist games, they are just stupid.

                        Who is playing. The whole world was at war after Pearl Harbour, before that, as reported in many American newspapers, Europe had something of a phoney war going on.

                        RichardM1 wrote:

                        But you don't owe us anything. Except the truth.

                        That is a two way street. Truth is what is. American public opinion may or may not have been told the entire truth, especially when you have Hollywood re-writing history. And when history starts getting re-written, confusion exists.

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                        • B Bergholt Stuttley Johnson

                          I have a big respect for the US but need to correct a few things

                          RichardM1 wrote:

                          We had been selling arms and armaments to non Axis forces weapons since '39.

                          and to axis, although I admit to a far lesser degree, however IBM were providing equipement and technology to germany well into 40 (and to the end of the war as a german subsiduary)

                          RichardM1 wrote:

                          We gave you and France a bunch of ammo and 50 destroyers in 1940.

                          no, in 1940 we were still required to PAY for all these items, and those 4 stackers cost the british govenment more than a new H class did despite there age (but as you will point out beggers cannot be choosers)

                          RichardM1 wrote:

                          Eagle squadrons were formed in September 1940.

                          this was a wholely RAF squadron that was made up of US pilots who defide thier govenment to join! what is conviently forgotton is that lend lease was introduced because you had drained the liquid assets. and that it took until the 1990s to finish paying you back. There was a lot on money made in the US from the war, overall you were the only country involved that made a profit and we were the only country NOT to default on its debt. and there is room for resentment in our treatment, firstly you had a embassador to the court of st james that alledgely provided the germans with intelligence.

                          You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start

                          R Offline
                          R Offline
                          RichardM1
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #33

                          [edit] Alex, some of this might not make sense without the context of me thinking I was answering Richard. It is 2am here, and I'm not going to go back and fix it. Of course, some of it might not make sense,because it is 2am here. :rolleyes: [/edit] My point was that Bob seems so spiteful towards the US that he would rather be a slave than say a good thing about the US.

                          Alex hogarth wrote:

                          and there is room for resentment in our treatment, firstly you had a embassador to the court of st james that alledgely provided the germans with intelligence.

                          Sure, and you had lots of guys who dumped our secrets to the Soviets. I can go down here and give you examples of British problems of conduct in WWII, non-payment of WWI debt, payment of WWII debt at 10% of value, traitors, all kinds of shit. So what? Tit for tat always does everyone so much good, convincing everyone. You ever had to live with someone who acted like that? Do you want to be that person? If you need to resent the US, I'm sorry for you, but go ahead. When you resent someone, it doesn't effect them, but eats up your life. If you want tit for tat, read on, otherwise, stop here. :laugh: ----------------------------------------------------------- IBM was not the US, any more than Lord Haw Haw was Britain. I understand the destroyers were highest quality POSs, but I thought we got land for them, not money. I found no evidence Eagle Squadron pilots were against government directive. Please pick a point of view, if IBM == US, then Eagle Squadron pilots == US. Or not, but pick a POV. Lend lease gave you stuff when you spent all your money. We did not 'drain' you, we just did not give you stuff for free,and you get resentful. It took you until 2006 to pay it off, at 10% face value, but the WWI debt was neither paid off nor forgiven. Every country has been screwed by at least one person from every other country. You got us with Philby (and others), who gave US nuclear secrets to the Soviets (not allegation, fact), and who is personally responsible for the Berlin Blockade. But do you think he is Britain,or is he Philby? Should I resent you and dump on the UK for Philby? For the WWI debt? Jiminy Christmas, get over it already. The only things I resent about Britain are attitudes like this and acting as a springboard for the Scottish to export haggis. [shudder]

                          Opacity, the new Transparency.

                          L 1 Reply Last reply
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                          • L Lost User

                            RichardM1 wrote:

                            Are you just as willing as Bob to live under Communist rule?

                            No and neither did Bob say that. What I said was [quote] If Pearl Harbour and the German declaration of war had not happened, the here and now of today would be very much different, and how much difference would be speculative which it probably what Bob was getting at. [/quote] It is likely that Soviet expansion might not have occurred at all if it had not been for (1) WWII and (2) the politics that came after WWII where, as I said, [quote] And afterwards, with the Nazi's gone, two competing political theologies, and their armed forces, faced each other with distrust. Thus the cold war that required the United States to retain a large presence in Europe to protect the interests, chiefly, of the United States. [/quote]

                            RichardM1 wrote:

                            but we had the whole Atlantic

                            Yes you did. And your industry that manufactured the armaments as used in all WWII theatres were immune from enemy action. Your industry was unscathed - the German or Japanese military did not have the ability to harm your industry. Mind you, there were many who were terribly worried that Japan might visit America's west coast with force after Pearl Harbour - you were somewhat exposed in those dark days!

                            RichardM1 wrote:

                            Don't play these silly ass revisionist games, they are just stupid.

                            Who is playing. The whole world was at war after Pearl Harbour, before that, as reported in many American newspapers, Europe had something of a phoney war going on.

                            RichardM1 wrote:

                            But you don't owe us anything. Except the truth.

                            That is a two way street. Truth is what is. American public opinion may or may not have been told the entire truth, especially when you have Hollywood re-writing history. And when history starts getting re-written, confusion exists.

                            D Offline
                            D Offline
                            Distind
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #34

                            Richard A. Abbott wrote:

                            Who is playing. The whole world was at war after Pearl Harbour, before that, as reported in many American newspapers, Europe had something of a phoney war going on.

                            Even after Pearl Harbor the nation at large was mostly dragged into it. There's a lot of US revision going into the understanding of WW2 in the US. The way you hear it from some people the US won the war without even consulting any one else, just swam across the Atlantic and kicked ass. Oh, then bombed the hell out of Japan(which it's rarely mentioned we got rather hung out to dry on once the war in Europe was over). That said, any serious look into the war surprises a lot of Americans.

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                            • R RichardM1

                              Wow. Not even specious. That is the absolute lamest excuse for an argument I have ever seen. I don't think I've seen anything this sophomoric since, well, ever. Utterly amazing that you would think to use this as an argument. By your argument, you are OK with dying yesterday, because today, you would not know you had died. You, not some hypothetical, alternate history, totalitarian state controlled you, but YOU, seem to think it is OK if YOU are a slave, if you didn't know any different. You would be totally fine with being low man in the USSR or Nazi Germany. And YOU know it is screwed up. Do you really expect me to believe you are that messed up? If so, lets get started - Bitch, iron my shirt.

                              Bob Emmett wrote:

                              You supposed, rather than realized.

                              I supposed you had some kind of an argument. When I read this, I realized you don't. I stand by what I wrote. Based on not caring if you are a Nazi a Commie or a Torrie... I realized you do not understand and really enjoy the freedoms you have. At ALL

                              Bob Emmett wrote:

                              BTW: Given the current erosion of freedom occasioned by acts of terrorism, how free would a USA surrounded by the British, Dutch, French, Japanese, Russian, ... colonial Empires - under the control of Adolf or Joe - have been, do you suppose?

                              I fight against the erosion happening now. I do not think that more erosion for other reasons is any better. I don't know if it would be worse - there is a definite enemy in that case. Now, there is no distinguishing the enemy from the civilians. I suppose there, we would not give a crap about happening to kill a civilian or five thousand, just to kill a Brit, or a Jap, the threat would be more real, and people would not be apologists for the enemy.

                              Opacity, the new Transparency.

                              L Offline
                              L Offline
                              Lost User
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #35

                              RichardM1 wrote:

                              I don't think I've seen anything this sophomoric since, well, ever.

                              Thank you, professor. But how about:

                              RichardM1 wrote:

                              you are OK with dying yesterday, because today, you would not know you had died.

                              RichardM1 wrote:

                              YOU, seem to think it is OK if YOU are a slave, if you didn't know any different.

                              No, I don't. If one's only terms of reference are the society into which one is born, how can one be aware of the freedoms that are not granted you?

                              RichardM1 wrote:

                              Based on not caring if you are a Nazi a Commie or a Torrie...

                              But I do care (about the fascist or communist option, Labour/Tory, Dem/Rep, are just Tweedledum/Tweedledee). But I might not have cared about being a fascist had I been born and bred in a fascist society.

                              RichardM1 wrote:

                              the threat would be more real

                              There is always a threat to Oceania.

                              Bob Emmett Never a sophomore, until now.

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                              • R RichardM1

                                Richard A. Abbott wrote:

                                Sounds to me

                                Then you are not listening. I didn't say anyone owed us anything (except as noted below), and I appreciate the ally most of the UK has been. Hell, we stole most of a continent (North America) from Britain, and we still get to be allies. :laugh: I am just astounded that Bob is so unwilling to think anything good of the US that he says it would not bother him to live in a Nazi or Soviet occupied Britain, as opposed to saying a single good thing came from the US. That is pretty pathological.

                                Richard A. Abbott wrote:

                                That is what brought the United States into WWII. Until then, you were more than happy to take a more or less neutral stance with respect to the then plight of Britain, the Free French, and other countries around the world.

                                Don't play these silly ass revisionist games, they are just stupid. We had been selling arms and armaments to non Axis forces weapons since '39. We called out our National Guard in 1940 and started expanding the military to 1.5 million men. We gave you and France a bunch of ammo and 50 destroyers in 1940. Eagle squadrons were formed in September 1940. Flying Tigers in the same time frame. Lend-lease started in March, 1941. We took over for your troops in Iceland in mid'41, freeing them up to fight. But you don't owe us anything. Except the truth.

                                Richard A. Abbott wrote:

                                Thus the cold war that required the United States to retain a large presence in Europe to protect the interests, chiefly, of the United States.

                                :doh: :confused: What interests were those? Other than you and people like you? Are you just as willing as Bob to live under Communist rule? :rolleyes: It was in everyone's best interest, but more yours than ours. We would not have lived under the Soviet thumb. You may have had the Channel for protection, but we had the whole Atlantic, or at least the Bering Straight and a hunk of Canada.

                                Opacity, the new Transparency.

                                L Offline
                                L Offline
                                Lost User
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #36

                                RichardM1 wrote:

                                Bob ... says it would not bother him to live in a Nazi or Soviet occupied Britain

                                Which would be a very perverse thing say ... had I said it ... which I didn't.

                                RichardM1 wrote:

                                Bob is so unwilling to think anything good of the US

                                The US, like all nation states, acts in what it perceives to be its own best interests.

                                RichardM1 wrote:

                                It was in everyone's best interest, but more yours than ours.

                                The US, like all nation states, acts in what it perceives to be its own best interests.

                                Bob Emmett

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                                • R RichardM1

                                  [edit] Alex, some of this might not make sense without the context of me thinking I was answering Richard. It is 2am here, and I'm not going to go back and fix it. Of course, some of it might not make sense,because it is 2am here. :rolleyes: [/edit] My point was that Bob seems so spiteful towards the US that he would rather be a slave than say a good thing about the US.

                                  Alex hogarth wrote:

                                  and there is room for resentment in our treatment, firstly you had a embassador to the court of st james that alledgely provided the germans with intelligence.

                                  Sure, and you had lots of guys who dumped our secrets to the Soviets. I can go down here and give you examples of British problems of conduct in WWII, non-payment of WWI debt, payment of WWII debt at 10% of value, traitors, all kinds of shit. So what? Tit for tat always does everyone so much good, convincing everyone. You ever had to live with someone who acted like that? Do you want to be that person? If you need to resent the US, I'm sorry for you, but go ahead. When you resent someone, it doesn't effect them, but eats up your life. If you want tit for tat, read on, otherwise, stop here. :laugh: ----------------------------------------------------------- IBM was not the US, any more than Lord Haw Haw was Britain. I understand the destroyers were highest quality POSs, but I thought we got land for them, not money. I found no evidence Eagle Squadron pilots were against government directive. Please pick a point of view, if IBM == US, then Eagle Squadron pilots == US. Or not, but pick a POV. Lend lease gave you stuff when you spent all your money. We did not 'drain' you, we just did not give you stuff for free,and you get resentful. It took you until 2006 to pay it off, at 10% face value, but the WWI debt was neither paid off nor forgiven. Every country has been screwed by at least one person from every other country. You got us with Philby (and others), who gave US nuclear secrets to the Soviets (not allegation, fact), and who is personally responsible for the Berlin Blockade. But do you think he is Britain,or is he Philby? Should I resent you and dump on the UK for Philby? For the WWI debt? Jiminy Christmas, get over it already. The only things I resent about Britain are attitudes like this and acting as a springboard for the Scottish to export haggis. [shudder]

                                  Opacity, the new Transparency.

                                  L Offline
                                  L Offline
                                  Lost User
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #37

                                  RichardM1 wrote:

                                  My point was that Bob seems so spiteful towards the US that he would rather be a slave than say a good thing about the US.

                                  I would rather be a slave than say a good thing about the US? Yeah, right. :rolleyes: Do I think that Europe 'needed' the USA to come in and 'clear up its mess'? No. Why? Because the European tribes have spent centuries alternately massacring each other and clearing up the mess. We were quite good at it.

                                  RichardM1 wrote:

                                  The only things I resent about Britain are attitudes like this

                                  Goes with being a world power. You think the British and French were loved? Rise above it.

                                  Bob Emmett CSS: I don't intend to be a technical writing, I intend to be a software engineer.

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