No System of Government Works (by itself)
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I know I'm preaching to the choir here, for the most part, but I think it should be clear by now that NONE of the discussed systems work by themselves... Take any one of them to its logical conclusion, and what do you get? Communism
Ideal: Everyone is equal, so there are no rich and no poor, no powerful and no weak. (Including those elected to lead) Reality: This goes against natural human greed. Inevitably, those in charge turn it into a communist dictatorship (See: USSR). End Result: Authoritarian regime by the chosen rulers Socialism
Ideal: The state controls everything and takes good care of the populace Reality: The state controls everything and screws the populace. End Result: Authoritarian regime by the chosen rulers Capitalism
Ideal: Unregulated market without government interference. Innovation is rewarded, laziness is punished Reality: Wealth becomes concentrated in the hands of the rich, the poor are reduced largely to slave labor. End Result: Authoritarian regime by whichever companies grow largest So what's the solution... Put them together... Take the best parts of each and find some way to make them complement each other. Basically, what we have now, but with the scales adjusted a bit. How much to adjust them, well, that's where the different political viewpoints come in.Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)you need abit of them all. Capitalism to fuel the ecomeny, which in turn brings in taxes Socialism to exert control over the captialism Communism to try to balance the growing gap over the rich and poor
Marc Clifton wrote:
That has nothing to do with VB. - Oh crap. I just defended VB!
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You are thinking of corporatism. Where the corporations lobby government to pass legislation and regulation that favors certain corporations in the name of "fair trade" and all that. No-bid contracts, federal reserve lending, corporate welfare (bailouts).
No, I know exactly what I'm thinking of. With unregulated markets, minimum wage removed, and no labor regulation, companies can make their own rules. If you take the government out of the picture, nothing stops companies from exploiting workers any way they see fit.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
What system of government works is a Constitutional Republic based on the principles of liberty and free-markets. When the Constitution is enforced correctly; and people are keen on what their government is doing at all times, the system works.
You don't even know what any of that means. You're just regurgitating what you've read on Ron Paul's website.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
With unregulated markets, minimum wage removed, and no labor regulation, companies can make their own rules. If you take the government out of the picture, nothing stops companies from exploiting workers any way they see fit.
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize. Products, services, and wages will be set to their true value. If however the government interviens, that causes imbalances, and some people are going to get screwed without choice because of the way the law fucks them over. Why is it that the more authoritarian and corrupt a government is, the less people get paid in their economy? Freedom brings prosperity, not government control and regulation. The only thing government is responsible for are courts, police, highways and roads, and military. If you negotiate a contract with a company to do this and that for X amount of money, the government has no business nullifying the contract because a law that says X has to be greater than Y. That is not freedom, that is authoritarian.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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you need abit of them all. Capitalism to fuel the ecomeny, which in turn brings in taxes Socialism to exert control over the captialism Communism to try to balance the growing gap over the rich and poor
Marc Clifton wrote:
That has nothing to do with VB. - Oh crap. I just defended VB!
100% agreed :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Ian Shlasko wrote:
With unregulated markets, minimum wage removed, and no labor regulation, companies can make their own rules. If you take the government out of the picture, nothing stops companies from exploiting workers any way they see fit.
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize. Products, services, and wages will be set to their true value. If however the government interviens, that causes imbalances, and some people are going to get screwed without choice because of the way the law fucks them over. Why is it that the more authoritarian and corrupt a government is, the less people get paid in their economy? Freedom brings prosperity, not government control and regulation. The only thing government is responsible for are courts, police, highways and roads, and military. If you negotiate a contract with a company to do this and that for X amount of money, the government has no business nullifying the contract because a law that says X has to be greater than Y. That is not freedom, that is authoritarian.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
There is no problem with that, because things balance themselves out. Products, services, and wages will be set to their true value. If however the government interviens, that causes imbalances, and some people are going to get screwed without choice because of the way the law fucks them over.
Very true... And what's the "true value" of someone who works an assembly line in a factory? How about a pizza delivery boy? Janitor at a department store? If companies could get away with paying these people less, they could lower the prices of their products and better compete in the marketplace. That's how unregulated capitalism works, and that's why we have things like minimum wage and government-supported trade unions. Explain to me how the "free market" would fix that little snafu.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
There is no problem with that, because things balance themselves out. Products, services, and wages will be set to their true value. If however the government interviens, that causes imbalances, and some people are going to get screwed without choice because of the way the law fucks them over.
Very true... And what's the "true value" of someone who works an assembly line in a factory? How about a pizza delivery boy? Janitor at a department store? If companies could get away with paying these people less, they could lower the prices of their products and better compete in the marketplace. That's how unregulated capitalism works, and that's why we have things like minimum wage and government-supported trade unions. Explain to me how the "free market" would fix that little snafu.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
Very true... And what's the "true value" of someone who works an assembly line in a factory? How about a pizza delivery boy? Janitor at a department store? If companies could get away with paying these people less, they could lower the prices of their products and better compete in the marketplace. That's how unregulated capitalism works, and that's why we have things like minimum wage and government-supported trade unions. Explain to me how the "free market" would fix that little snafu.
It isn't a problem. Trying to fix it will create a cascade of problems which will negatively effect everyone. Think of all the people who can't get a job because the government won't let them work for less than minimum wage. Think of all the companies who have to throw money away hiring workers that are overpaid. Its bad for the economy.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
With unregulated markets, minimum wage removed, and no labor regulation, companies can make their own rules. If you take the government out of the picture, nothing stops companies from exploiting workers any way they see fit.
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize. Products, services, and wages will be set to their true value. If however the government interviens, that causes imbalances, and some people are going to get screwed without choice because of the way the law fucks them over. Why is it that the more authoritarian and corrupt a government is, the less people get paid in their economy? Freedom brings prosperity, not government control and regulation. The only thing government is responsible for are courts, police, highways and roads, and military. If you negotiate a contract with a company to do this and that for X amount of money, the government has no business nullifying the contract because a law that says X has to be greater than Y. That is not freedom, that is authoritarian.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize. Products, services, and wages will be set to their true value. If however the government interviens, that causes imbalances, and some people are going to get screwed without choice because of the way the law fucks them over.
Sorry disagree with you there. Inflation affects the price of goods, the price of goods get higher with inflation (which is controlled by demand!). without having some form of wage / employement regulations you risk people not being able to afford the basic's of life! my brain hurts too much to pad this out further to be honest!
Marc Clifton wrote:
That has nothing to do with VB. - Oh crap. I just defended VB!
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Very true... And what's the "true value" of someone who works an assembly line in a factory? How about a pizza delivery boy? Janitor at a department store? If companies could get away with paying these people less, they could lower the prices of their products and better compete in the marketplace. That's how unregulated capitalism works, and that's why we have things like minimum wage and government-supported trade unions. Explain to me how the "free market" would fix that little snafu.
It isn't a problem. Trying to fix it will create a cascade of problems which will negatively effect everyone. Think of all the people who can't get a job because the government won't let them work for less than minimum wage. Think of all the companies who have to throw money away hiring workers that are overpaid. Its bad for the economy.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
It isn't a problem.
Tell that to the guys working for slave wages under your ideal system, who can barely afford to feed themselves, and have no time or money to get an education and improve their situation. Tell them that it isn't a problem. Hey, tell it to the kids working in sweat shops in China (Or wherever we're outsourcing to now)... That's how unregulated capitalism works, even under a communist regime.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize. Products, services, and wages will be set to their true value. If however the government interviens, that causes imbalances, and some people are going to get screwed without choice because of the way the law fucks them over.
Sorry disagree with you there. Inflation affects the price of goods, the price of goods get higher with inflation (which is controlled by demand!). without having some form of wage / employement regulations you risk people not being able to afford the basic's of life! my brain hurts too much to pad this out further to be honest!
Marc Clifton wrote:
That has nothing to do with VB. - Oh crap. I just defended VB!
Simon_Whale wrote:
Inflation affects the price of goods, the price of goods get higher with inflation (which is controlled by demand!). without having some form of wage / employement regulations you risk people not being able to afford the basic's of life!
So do alot of other things. Inflation not only pushes the price of goods and service up, but it also pushes wages up. Regardless of the cause of the inflation, prices and wages rise naturally without laws forcing them to. On the other hand their is deflation, why should people have to wait for the government to lower minimum wage so that they may find a job in a deflationary economy? That is not freedom, that is USSR style authoritarianism. However inflation is almost always caused by money printing, which is a hidden tax by the government or the central bank that is trying to "manage", "rig", or centrally plan the economy.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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Simon_Whale wrote:
Inflation affects the price of goods, the price of goods get higher with inflation (which is controlled by demand!). without having some form of wage / employement regulations you risk people not being able to afford the basic's of life!
So do alot of other things. Inflation not only pushes the price of goods and service up, but it also pushes wages up. Regardless of the cause of the inflation, prices and wages rise naturally without laws forcing them to. On the other hand their is deflation, why should people have to wait for the government to lower minimum wage so that they may find a job in a deflationary economy? That is not freedom, that is USSR style authoritarianism. However inflation is almost always caused by money printing, which is a hidden tax by the government or the central bank that is trying to "manage", "rig", or centrally plan the economy.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Inflation not only pushes the price of goods and service up, but it also pushes wages up.
but normal wage increases are done at the start of financial years! so you have the potential to wait upto 1 year for a wage increase
Marc Clifton wrote:
That has nothing to do with VB. - Oh crap. I just defended VB!
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
With unregulated markets, minimum wage removed, and no labor regulation, companies can make their own rules. If you take the government out of the picture, nothing stops companies from exploiting workers any way they see fit.
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize. Products, services, and wages will be set to their true value. If however the government interviens, that causes imbalances, and some people are going to get screwed without choice because of the way the law fucks them over. Why is it that the more authoritarian and corrupt a government is, the less people get paid in their economy? Freedom brings prosperity, not government control and regulation. The only thing government is responsible for are courts, police, highways and roads, and military. If you negotiate a contract with a company to do this and that for X amount of money, the government has no business nullifying the contract because a law that says X has to be greater than Y. That is not freedom, that is authoritarian.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize.
This is a claim frequently used to justify free markets yet there is no logical reason why it must occur. Once the free market system brings about a general depression there is no reason why it should recover. At least there wasn't one when I studied general equilibrium theory and welfare economics.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Products, services, and wages will be set to their true value.
Markets do not determine 'true values', they determine the prices of commodities. You could argue that the price of a commodity is its 'true value', but here you are just using circular reasoning. I.e the true value of a product is its price, markets determine prices, therefore markets determine true value. Now if one were to take a Labor Theory of Value approach one would see that price and 'true value' can, and frequently will, diverge.
Regards David R --------------------------------------------------------------- "Every program eventually becomes rococo, and then rubble." - Alan Perlis The only valid measurement of code quality: WTFs/minute.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
It isn't a problem.
Tell that to the guys working for slave wages under your ideal system, who can barely afford to feed themselves, and have no time or money to get an education and improve their situation. Tell them that it isn't a problem. Hey, tell it to the kids working in sweat shops in China (Or wherever we're outsourcing to now)... That's how unregulated capitalism works, even under a communist regime.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
Tell that to the guys working for slave wages under your ideal system, who can barely afford to feed themselves, and have no time or money to get an education and improve their situation.
Back in the old days before minimum wage and when our country wasn't infected with a cancerous central bank you could find a job, make a living, and take advantage of the opportunities that an expanding economy in a free-market system had to offer. Sure you might make 20 cents an hour, but 1 dollar was worth 25 dollars because money was gold and silver coin. People do not have a right to other people's property, if you can't make enough money doing X to support yourself, then don't do X anymore. If company doesn't have enough labor for do X, they will increase incentive (wages) for workers to do X. People must seek out profitable activities, that is what makes an economy grow and makes the most people prosper out of any other system. There is always a way to support yourself when you have liberty, property rights, and free-markets.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Hey, tell it to the kids working in sweat shops in China (Or wherever we're outsourcing to now)... That's how unregulated capitalism works, even under a communist regime.
Oxymoronic nonsesne. They are a perfect example of why a highly regulated centrally planned economy always results in the workers being exploited. Communism setting up slave labor farms is not liberty, it is not Constitutional Republic based on liberty and free-markets.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
With unregulated markets, minimum wage removed, and no labor regulation, companies can make their own rules. If you take the government out of the picture, nothing stops companies from exploiting workers any way they see fit.
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize. Products, services, and wages will be set to their true value. If however the government interviens, that causes imbalances, and some people are going to get screwed without choice because of the way the law fucks them over. Why is it that the more authoritarian and corrupt a government is, the less people get paid in their economy? Freedom brings prosperity, not government control and regulation. The only thing government is responsible for are courts, police, highways and roads, and military. If you negotiate a contract with a company to do this and that for X amount of money, the government has no business nullifying the contract because a law that says X has to be greater than Y. That is not freedom, that is authoritarian.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize.
Question, exactly how would the free market balance and normalize the oil spill we're dealing with right now? Or is government intervention viable when there are national issues caused by corporations?
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize.
This is a claim frequently used to justify free markets yet there is no logical reason why it must occur. Once the free market system brings about a general depression there is no reason why it should recover. At least there wasn't one when I studied general equilibrium theory and welfare economics.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Products, services, and wages will be set to their true value.
Markets do not determine 'true values', they determine the prices of commodities. You could argue that the price of a commodity is its 'true value', but here you are just using circular reasoning. I.e the true value of a product is its price, markets determine prices, therefore markets determine true value. Now if one were to take a Labor Theory of Value approach one would see that price and 'true value' can, and frequently will, diverge.
Regards David R --------------------------------------------------------------- "Every program eventually becomes rococo, and then rubble." - Alan Perlis The only valid measurement of code quality: WTFs/minute.
You have a lot to learn about economics, and how things truly work. You can start with Milton Freedman's debate. America's freedom and prosperity derive from the combination of the idea of human liberty in America's Declaration of Independence with the idea of economic freedom in Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. Friedman explains how markets and voluntary exchange organize activity and enable people to improve their lives. He also explains the price system. Friedman visits Hong Kong, U.S. and Scotland.[^] You can follow the related video links to find volumes 2 through 10.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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Simon_Whale wrote:
Inflation affects the price of goods, the price of goods get higher with inflation (which is controlled by demand!). without having some form of wage / employement regulations you risk people not being able to afford the basic's of life!
So do alot of other things. Inflation not only pushes the price of goods and service up, but it also pushes wages up. Regardless of the cause of the inflation, prices and wages rise naturally without laws forcing them to. On the other hand their is deflation, why should people have to wait for the government to lower minimum wage so that they may find a job in a deflationary economy? That is not freedom, that is USSR style authoritarianism. However inflation is almost always caused by money printing, which is a hidden tax by the government or the central bank that is trying to "manage", "rig", or centrally plan the economy.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
There is no problem with that, because things will finally balance themselves out and normalize.
Question, exactly how would the free market balance and normalize the oil spill we're dealing with right now? Or is government intervention viable when there are national issues caused by corporations?
BP would be on the hook for property damage, having to pay in full for all damages to personal property, business property, city, state, and federal property. BP would be required to clean the oil spill and face legal fines, investigations, and certain people may face jail time if it were done on purpose.
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BP would be on the hook for property damage, having to pay in full for all damages to personal property, business property, city, state, and federal property. BP would be required to clean the oil spill and face legal fines, investigations, and certain people may face jail time if it were done on purpose.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
But that's *gasp* government regulation! Commie pinko socialist!
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But that's *gasp* government regulation! Commie pinko socialist!
No it is not, it is enforcing Constitutional law, protecting property rights.
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No it is not, it is enforcing Constitutional law, protecting property rights.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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No it is not, it is enforcing Constitutional law, protecting property rights.
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The Constitution is a document which places restrictions on the actions of the Government, not on it's citizens or private companies. The 5th ammendment protects your property from the Federal Government, the 14th extends that protection to cover the State governments as well, but nowhere in the constitution is your property protected from private citizens or businesses. Government laws and regulations give you that protection.
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BP would be on the hook for property damage, having to pay in full for all damages to personal property, business property, city, state, and federal property. BP would be required to clean the oil spill and face legal fines, investigations, and certain people may face jail time if it were done on purpose.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
No BP would face a trail by the US government. IF found guilty they would fine them severely. BP would offer some sort of clean up act on the oil spill to the land! Insurance companies would then face a huge amount of claims to property and belongings!
Marc Clifton wrote:
That has nothing to do with VB. - Oh crap. I just defended VB!