No System of Government Works (by itself)
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The Constitution is a document which places restrictions on the actions of the Government, not on it's citizens or private companies. The 5th ammendment protects your property from the Federal Government, the 14th extends that protection to cover the State governments as well, but nowhere in the constitution is your property protected from private citizens or businesses. Government laws and regulations give you that protection.
James L. Thomson wrote:
but nowhere in the constitution is your property protected from private citizens or businesses
The Constitution doesn't give people rights. It lays out the framework for a system of government to protect people's inherent God given rights. The constitution isn't something that lays out all of the laws that exist into a small document. It is a framework. You are born with rights, privileges are given to you by authority. The constitution exist as the architecture of the government.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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No BP would face a trail by the US government. IF found guilty they would fine them severely. BP would offer some sort of clean up act on the oil spill to the land! Insurance companies would then face a huge amount of claims to property and belongings!
Marc Clifton wrote:
That has nothing to do with VB. - Oh crap. I just defended VB!
Perhaps in the corrupt system of government we have now. However, theoretically, if you damage someones property, it is your responsibility to pay for damages. BP is in bed with the government, Obama gave them an award not too long before the "accident". He will let them get away with a slap on the wrist while at the same time telling us how tough he is.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
Sure you might make 20 cents an hour, but 1 dollar was worth 25 dollars
And as a note, that'd come out to 5 dollars an hour using his own figures. 40 hour work week, 200 dollars a week.
I'd die to make that much money right now.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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You have a lot to learn about economics, and how things truly work. You can start with Milton Freedman's debate. America's freedom and prosperity derive from the combination of the idea of human liberty in America's Declaration of Independence with the idea of economic freedom in Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. Friedman explains how markets and voluntary exchange organize activity and enable people to improve their lives. He also explains the price system. Friedman visits Hong Kong, U.S. and Scotland.[^] You can follow the related video links to find volumes 2 through 10.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
... economics, and how things truly work.
The two things are quite different. Economics is essentially a branch of mathematical modeling that starts from a bunch of assumptions about how the world works. One of the fundamental assumptions is that free markets are the best way to organize production and consumption. This is then used to justify free markets as the optimal way to organize production and consumption, because the models say it is so. Friedman, and others, use this to promote their political views. Incidentally I lost respect for him when he produced a theory that relied on the assumption that if you won first prize in the national lottery you would not increase your spending.
Regards David R --------------------------------------------------------------- "Every program eventually becomes rococo, and then rubble." - Alan Perlis The only valid measurement of code quality: WTFs/minute.
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But that's *gasp* government regulation! Commie pinko socialist!
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James L. Thomson wrote:
but nowhere in the constitution is your property protected from private citizens or businesses
The Constitution doesn't give people rights. It lays out the framework for a system of government to protect people's inherent God given rights. The constitution isn't something that lays out all of the laws that exist into a small document. It is a framework. You are born with rights, privileges are given to you by authority. The constitution exist as the architecture of the government.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
people's inherent God given rights.
Where do I find out what these are? How can I be sure God gave them?
Regards David R --------------------------------------------------------------- "Every program eventually becomes rococo, and then rubble." - Alan Perlis The only valid measurement of code quality: WTFs/minute.
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I know I'm preaching to the choir here, for the most part, but I think it should be clear by now that NONE of the discussed systems work by themselves... Take any one of them to its logical conclusion, and what do you get? Communism
Ideal: Everyone is equal, so there are no rich and no poor, no powerful and no weak. (Including those elected to lead) Reality: This goes against natural human greed. Inevitably, those in charge turn it into a communist dictatorship (See: USSR). End Result: Authoritarian regime by the chosen rulers Socialism
Ideal: The state controls everything and takes good care of the populace Reality: The state controls everything and screws the populace. End Result: Authoritarian regime by the chosen rulers Capitalism
Ideal: Unregulated market without government interference. Innovation is rewarded, laziness is punished Reality: Wealth becomes concentrated in the hands of the rich, the poor are reduced largely to slave labor. End Result: Authoritarian regime by whichever companies grow largest So what's the solution... Put them together... Take the best parts of each and find some way to make them complement each other. Basically, what we have now, but with the scales adjusted a bit. How much to adjust them, well, that's where the different political viewpoints come in.Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Capitalism isn't a form of government so it doesn't fit with the list of forms of government. I think you should be listing Democracy there instead of capitalism.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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Capitalism isn't a form of government so it doesn't fit with the list of forms of government. I think you should be listing Democracy there instead of capitalism.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
Well, I could have called it a socioeconomic system, but I hate buzzwords. Besides, everyone here understood it just fine :P
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
I'd die to make that much money right now.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
people's inherent God given rights.
Where do I find out what these are? How can I be sure God gave them?
Regards David R --------------------------------------------------------------- "Every program eventually becomes rococo, and then rubble." - Alan Perlis The only valid measurement of code quality: WTFs/minute.
Since God doesn't exist you can't, but he won't admit that.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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Well, I could have called it a socioeconomic system, but I hate buzzwords. Besides, everyone here understood it just fine :P
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)I'm just making sure it's clear. All to often capitalism is used in place of or as a political system when it isn't. I think it's an important distinction because economic systems and political systems are mutually exclusive despite what people like CSS think or say. The constitution says nothing of what kind of economic system we are too have or even hints of it. After reading some of the Federalist Papers I would say that CSS believes a a combination of Hamiltonian and Jeffersonian since Hamilton believed that to include a list of rights was too inclusive and was unnecessary as opposed inclusive like Jefferson. see http://countrystudies.us/united-states/history-41.htm[^]Hamilton wanted a strong central government. Jefferson strong states rights. This argument has been going on for a long time, since the beginning. Hamilton wanted a central bank by the way and George Washington and the congress at the time agreed. See the last two paragraphs of http://countrystudies.us/united-states/history-41.htm[^]
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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I'm just making sure it's clear. All to often capitalism is used in place of or as a political system when it isn't. I think it's an important distinction because economic systems and political systems are mutually exclusive despite what people like CSS think or say. The constitution says nothing of what kind of economic system we are too have or even hints of it. After reading some of the Federalist Papers I would say that CSS believes a a combination of Hamiltonian and Jeffersonian since Hamilton believed that to include a list of rights was too inclusive and was unnecessary as opposed inclusive like Jefferson. see http://countrystudies.us/united-states/history-41.htm[^]Hamilton wanted a strong central government. Jefferson strong states rights. This argument has been going on for a long time, since the beginning. Hamilton wanted a central bank by the way and George Washington and the congress at the time agreed. See the last two paragraphs of http://countrystudies.us/united-states/history-41.htm[^]
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
I don't support most of Hamilton's ideas.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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I'm just making sure it's clear. All to often capitalism is used in place of or as a political system when it isn't. I think it's an important distinction because economic systems and political systems are mutually exclusive despite what people like CSS think or say. The constitution says nothing of what kind of economic system we are too have or even hints of it. After reading some of the Federalist Papers I would say that CSS believes a a combination of Hamiltonian and Jeffersonian since Hamilton believed that to include a list of rights was too inclusive and was unnecessary as opposed inclusive like Jefferson. see http://countrystudies.us/united-states/history-41.htm[^]Hamilton wanted a strong central government. Jefferson strong states rights. This argument has been going on for a long time, since the beginning. Hamilton wanted a central bank by the way and George Washington and the congress at the time agreed. See the last two paragraphs of http://countrystudies.us/united-states/history-41.htm[^]
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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I know I'm preaching to the choir here, for the most part, but I think it should be clear by now that NONE of the discussed systems work by themselves... Take any one of them to its logical conclusion, and what do you get? Communism
Ideal: Everyone is equal, so there are no rich and no poor, no powerful and no weak. (Including those elected to lead) Reality: This goes against natural human greed. Inevitably, those in charge turn it into a communist dictatorship (See: USSR). End Result: Authoritarian regime by the chosen rulers Socialism
Ideal: The state controls everything and takes good care of the populace Reality: The state controls everything and screws the populace. End Result: Authoritarian regime by the chosen rulers Capitalism
Ideal: Unregulated market without government interference. Innovation is rewarded, laziness is punished Reality: Wealth becomes concentrated in the hands of the rich, the poor are reduced largely to slave labor. End Result: Authoritarian regime by whichever companies grow largest So what's the solution... Put them together... Take the best parts of each and find some way to make them complement each other. Basically, what we have now, but with the scales adjusted a bit. How much to adjust them, well, that's where the different political viewpoints come in.Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Again I say... Upon seizing power I promise to be a benevolent dictator. Thrakazogism Ideal: Unregulated market without government interference. Innovation is rewarded,laziness is punished by 24 hour reality show involving tazers. Reality: Revenue from the show tazing the lazy will be used to feed/educate them. End Result: Entertainment, World peace.
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James L. Thomson wrote:
but nowhere in the constitution is your property protected from private citizens or businesses
The Constitution doesn't give people rights. It lays out the framework for a system of government to protect people's inherent God given rights. The constitution isn't something that lays out all of the laws that exist into a small document. It is a framework. You are born with rights, privileges are given to you by authority. The constitution exist as the architecture of the government.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
The Constitution doesn't give people rights. It lays out the framework for a system of government to protect people's inherent God given rights. The constitution isn't something that lays out all of the laws that exist into a small document. It is a framework. You are born with rights, privileges are given to you by authority. The constitution exist as the architecture of the government.
Who did you parrot that from? I mean, it's mostly right (which is how I know it can't be from you) and yet, even having written it you can't see how it completely defeated your argument. The Constitution isn't something that lays out all the laws, it is a document which lays out the architecture of the government and places restrictions on it. Your right to have your property protected from non-government entities stems not from the Constitution itself, but from the various laws and regulations enacted by its government. The ONLY way it could be construed as a required government responsibility is via the 14th Amendment using the exact same logic that was used to restrict private business' ability to discriminate (and we all know what your keepers think of that). The property rights you are given come not from God, not from the Constitution, but, as you said, from authority.
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You have a lot to learn about economics, and how things truly work. You can start with Milton Freedman's debate. America's freedom and prosperity derive from the combination of the idea of human liberty in America's Declaration of Independence with the idea of economic freedom in Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations. Friedman explains how markets and voluntary exchange organize activity and enable people to improve their lives. He also explains the price system. Friedman visits Hong Kong, U.S. and Scotland.[^] You can follow the related video links to find volumes 2 through 10.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You have a lot to learn about economics,
Since you did not respond to my previous reply thought I'd let you know something. I studied economics for eight years (two degrees) and lectured in economics for six years. This does not mean I know everything about the subject but I guess I know more than the average Joe. I also guess I know considerably more than you do.
Regards David R --------------------------------------------------------------- "Every program eventually becomes rococo, and then rubble." - Alan Perlis The only valid measurement of code quality: WTFs/minute.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You have a lot to learn about economics,
Since you did not respond to my previous reply thought I'd let you know something. I studied economics for eight years (two degrees) and lectured in economics for six years. This does not mean I know everything about the subject but I guess I know more than the average Joe. I also guess I know considerably more than you do.
Regards David R --------------------------------------------------------------- "Every program eventually becomes rococo, and then rubble." - Alan Perlis The only valid measurement of code quality: WTFs/minute.
See, now you scared him away. This is CSS 101... He only has four possible responses, kind of like a state machine. 1) Arguing Mode
A) Quotes a bunch of Alex Jones and Ron Paul rhetoric, not actually understanding a single word of it. B) Posts links to YouTube videos that sometimes illustrate his point, and sometimes do exactly the opposite (He doesn't understand them, so he can't tell the difference). 2) Failure Mode (This is when he realizes he's outgunned) A) Random insults, ranging from adolescent name-calling to generic "You don't know what you're talking about"-style comebacks. B) Silence. When he's proven wrong, he'll usually just run away and hide. I've never seen him actually admit a mistake.Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
I know I'm preaching to the choir here, for the most part, but I think it should be clear by now that NONE of the discussed systems work by themselves... Take any one of them to its logical conclusion, and what do you get? Communism
Ideal: Everyone is equal, so there are no rich and no poor, no powerful and no weak. (Including those elected to lead) Reality: This goes against natural human greed. Inevitably, those in charge turn it into a communist dictatorship (See: USSR). End Result: Authoritarian regime by the chosen rulers Socialism
Ideal: The state controls everything and takes good care of the populace Reality: The state controls everything and screws the populace. End Result: Authoritarian regime by the chosen rulers Capitalism
Ideal: Unregulated market without government interference. Innovation is rewarded, laziness is punished Reality: Wealth becomes concentrated in the hands of the rich, the poor are reduced largely to slave labor. End Result: Authoritarian regime by whichever companies grow largest So what's the solution... Put them together... Take the best parts of each and find some way to make them complement each other. Basically, what we have now, but with the scales adjusted a bit. How much to adjust them, well, that's where the different political viewpoints come in.Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Yes, I am astounded at how many people can see some of these systems as pure evil, and others as pure good. It's plain to me that no extreme system will work, a balanced approach is needed. We have the balance wrong right now, but neither pure socialism or pure capitalism will solve the issue.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Capitalism Ideal: Unregulated market without government interference. Innovation is rewarded, laziness is punished Reality: Wealth becomes concentrated in the hands of the rich, the poor are reduced largely to slave labor. End Result: Authoritarian regime by whichever companies grow largest
You are thinking of corporatism. Where the corporations lobby government to pass legislation and regulation that favors certain corporations in the name of "fair trade" and all that. No-bid contracts, federal reserve lending, corporate welfare (bailouts). What system of government works is a Constitutional Republic based on the principles of liberty and free-markets. When the Constitution is enforced correctly; and people are keen on what their government is doing at all times, the system works.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
What system of government works is a Constitutional Republic based on the principles of liberty and free-markets. When the Constitution is enforced correctly; and people are keen on what their government is doing at all times, the system works.
While this is plainly not true, the other question is, how would you know ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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James L. Thomson wrote:
but nowhere in the constitution is your property protected from private citizens or businesses
The Constitution doesn't give people rights. It lays out the framework for a system of government to protect people's inherent God given rights. The constitution isn't something that lays out all of the laws that exist into a small document. It is a framework. You are born with rights, privileges are given to you by authority. The constitution exist as the architecture of the government.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
You are born with rights, privileges are given to you by authority
What rights do you think you are born with, and how do they exist when government does nothing to help you protect them ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.