Michael Moore
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There is sweet FA you can do about this. I am all for making parents take more responsibility for their kids, but if a single mum has a law-breaking teenage thug for a son, locking her up isn't going to help is it? Besides, it isn't always part of the problem at all David. I grew up knowing right from wrong and had the same upbringing as my older brother. So, here I am, a sensible law-abiding adult, whereas he is a notorious violent criminal, who is currently inside AGAIN (6th or 7th time). If family structure/discipline was to blame for his errant ways, then why did we end up so different? Things are rarely so black and white.
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
I guess by family structure I was thinking more along the lines of the way a person is brought up - the environment they live in, not merely that provided by the parents and siblings.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
"Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea" - Martin Marvinski
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Roger Wright wrote: Family structure, or lack of it, is a large part of the violence problem I'd say it is all of it, bar the odd anomaly, and so true of so many problems. But what can you really do about it though? :~
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
"Unfortunatly Deep Throat isn't my cup of tea" - Martin Marvinski
David Wulff wrote: But what can you really do about it though? You can take responsibility for your own children, and do your utmost to ensure they get a proper upbringing. If you do nothing else beyond this, you have my respect. It's sad to see parents rip into "The System" for producing a generation of thugs and slackers, lobby for new laws and stricter tests, and then let their own kids run wild in the streets. X| Shog9 ------
to the revelations of fresh faced youth no one will come to save you so speak your peace in the murmurs drawn but youth is wasted on the young - Smashing Pumpkins, Thru the Eyes of Ruby
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A shame,because I thought his book "Stupid White Men..." was the funniest thing I'd read in a while! As for guns. Well, I've heard it said many times that "guns don't kill people, it's people that kill". Well, that may be true but guns make it a LOT EASIER to kill, and therein lies the problem. As so people resorting to chemicals/dynamite ... awwwww ... come on Stan! This took the shine off your entire comment!
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: As so people resorting to chemicals/dynamite ... awwwww ... come on Stan! Yeah, for shame! Who has access to common household chemicals these days anyway? Shog9 ------
to the revelations of fresh faced youth no one will come to save you so speak your peace in the murmurs drawn but youth is wasted on the young - Smashing Pumpkins, Thru the Eyes of Ruby
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A shame,because I thought his book "Stupid White Men..." was the funniest thing I'd read in a while! As for guns. Well, I've heard it said many times that "guns don't kill people, it's people that kill". Well, that may be true but guns make it a LOT EASIER to kill, and therein lies the problem. As so people resorting to chemicals/dynamite ... awwwww ... come on Stan! This took the shine off your entire comment!
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Well, that may be true but guns make it a LOT EASIER to kill, and therein lies the problem. but you've got to factor in the way Americans apparently put shooting someone higher on the list of problem solving methods than people do in nearly all other 'civilized' countries. -c
“losinger is a colorizing text edit control” -- googlism
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Brit wrote: segment was more about kids killing other kids. I couldn't even quite understand how that fit into the movie. What was the point? that americans' penchant for violence begins at a very early age. Brit wrote: Homicides per 100,000 people per year i guess you found a source that you liked. here's what CNN has to say: they also cite 6.8 / 100,000 homicides, in 1999 "...from 1976 to 1997, 85 percent of white murder victims were killed by whites and 94 percent of black victims were killed by blacks. " or, if you prefer: http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html. Brit wrote: But, he's ignoring the fact that minorities are driving this number up to 6.9/100,000 people. ok, so which is it, 6.9 or 3.5?? is it 3.5 in the racially pure US and 6.9 when everyone's mixed in? Brit wrote: If you're looking for the reason homicide rates are so high in the US, why not look at the communities where homicides are 9 times more common than the national average? ok, and what should i find? are you telling me Seattle is more racially mixed than, say, any city in Texas, Florida or CA? -c
“losinger is a colorizing text edit control” -- googlism
"...from 1976 to 1997, 85 percent of white murder victims were killed by whites and 94 percent of black victims were killed by blacks. " You are exactly right. Most black violence is directed at other blacks. Most whites are killed by other whites. ok, so which is it, 6.9 or 3.5?? is it 3.5 in the racially pure US and 6.9 when everyone's mixed in? I got my numbers here http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/oracetab.htm They broke out the numbers by race. Alternatively, you can look here ( http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm ). One note about these statistics: they break race into "White", "Black", and "Other". I *think* they are including hispanics into "White". (Since hispanics have higher rates of homicide, they would drive up the general "White" category.) Unfortunately, I didn't find statistics broken into non-hispanic white, hispanic, black, other. I don't think "Other" includes hispanic because the numbers seem unusually low. I think "Other" includes Asian, American Indian, etc. Here's another breakout: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/ageracesex.htm (Take a look at the scales on the graphs.) ------------------------------------------ "Isn't it funny how people say they'll never grow up to be their parents, then one day they look in the mirror and they're moving aircraft carriers into the Gulf region?" - The Onion
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Family structure, or lack of it, is a large part of the violence problem. There is very little parental influence on children compared to when I was a boy. Discipline and responsibility for one's own actions are both lacking, and the result is this trend toward using violence to resolve issues that would otherwise be addressed in a peaceful manner. An interesting phenomenon can be observed by plotting per capita violent crime rates against population density in US cities. The one time I checked it using the scanty data available to me at the time, there was a nearly straight-line correlation between the two variables. Those cities which fell above the line also had stricter gun controls, and higher proportions of minority population, making it difficult to decide which was the more significant contributor (if, indeed, either was significant). It is significant that there appeared to be no relationship between violence levels and raw population - the density is what mattered. Some day I'd like to study it more thoroughly, with better data. "When in danger, fear, or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!" - Lorelei and Lapis Lazuli Long
Family structure, or lack of it, is a large part of the violence problem. That seems logical. Some european countries have higher divorce rates than the US, though. Maybe multiple variables are interacting (for example broken home + glorification of violence or something like that). It would be interesting to get the statistics on that. ------------------------------------------ "Isn't it funny how people say they'll never grow up to be their parents, then one day they look in the mirror and they're moving aircraft carriers into the Gulf region?" - The Onion
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"...from 1976 to 1997, 85 percent of white murder victims were killed by whites and 94 percent of black victims were killed by blacks. " You are exactly right. Most black violence is directed at other blacks. Most whites are killed by other whites. ok, so which is it, 6.9 or 3.5?? is it 3.5 in the racially pure US and 6.9 when everyone's mixed in? I got my numbers here http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/oracetab.htm They broke out the numbers by race. Alternatively, you can look here ( http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm ). One note about these statistics: they break race into "White", "Black", and "Other". I *think* they are including hispanics into "White". (Since hispanics have higher rates of homicide, they would drive up the general "White" category.) Unfortunately, I didn't find statistics broken into non-hispanic white, hispanic, black, other. I don't think "Other" includes hispanic because the numbers seem unusually low. I think "Other" includes Asian, American Indian, etc. Here's another breakout: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/ageracesex.htm (Take a look at the scales on the graphs.) ------------------------------------------ "Isn't it funny how people say they'll never grow up to be their parents, then one day they look in the mirror and they're moving aircraft carriers into the Gulf region?" - The Onion
first, the topic of the movie is guns. those FBI numbers don't address guns. second, you seem to be saying that it's a race problem. i see it as a murder problem. IMO, the numbers are too high for everyone, black, white, whatever. pointing your finger at minorities won't stop white people from killing each other with guns, will it? -c
“losinger is a colorizing text edit control” -- googlism
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Trolling again, Colin? That's the most irrational thing I've ever seen you post! We're slipping here, lad... "When in danger, fear, or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!" - Lorelei and Lapis Lazuli Long
Roger Wright wrote: Trolling again, Colin? You bet. Roger Wright wrote: That's the most irrational thing I've ever seen you post! Yeah. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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first, the topic of the movie is guns. those FBI numbers don't address guns. second, you seem to be saying that it's a race problem. i see it as a murder problem. IMO, the numbers are too high for everyone, black, white, whatever. pointing your finger at minorities won't stop white people from killing each other with guns, will it? -c
“losinger is a colorizing text edit control” -- googlism
first, the topic of the movie is guns. those FBI numbers don't address guns. Actually, they do if you dig a little bit. They don't have absolute numbers (unless you go directly to their raw data). But, minorities are more likely to use guns in homicide than whites. What does this mean? An even greater percentage of gun homicides are committed by minorities than homicides in general. So, if you limit yourself to "homicides committed with guns", the numbers look even worse for minorities.
Homicide Type by Race, 1976-99
Victims Offenders
White Black Other White Black Other
All homicides 51.2% 46.6% 2.2% 46.5% 51.5% 2.0%
Gun homicide 47.9% 50.2% 1.9% 43.8% 54.5% 1.7%Source: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/race.htm second, you seem to be saying that it's a race problem. i see it as a murder problem. IMO, the numbers are too high for everyone, black, white, whatever. pointing your finger at minorities won't stop white people from killing each other with guns, will it? You're right. There are too many white murders. But, minority homicide at least deserves mention and study. Afterall, he talks about school shootings. What percentage of homicides does that make up? I'd guess a small fraction of one percent of all homicides. On the other hand, minority homicides makeup over 50% of the US homicide rate (almost all of it directed at other minorities), but doesn't get mention. I should also mention that it's hard to be racist against blacks from this data when you stop to consider that they are, by far, the most common victims of black killers. By being racist against blacks, you are essentially making them the victim twice: once because they (and their communities) are commonly the victims of killers, and second because you discriminate against them because you think they are 'bad'. ------------------------------------------ "Isn't it funny how people say they'll never grow up to be their parents, then one day they look in the mirror and they're moving aircraft carriers into the Gulf region?" - The Onion
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Guns are a symptom, they are not the desease. That's only partly true. Guns make it much easier for the disease to be expressed. It's a lot harder to kill someone with your fists or even with a knife.
Ed Gadziemski wrote: It's a lot harder to kill someone with your fists or even with a knife. It is a lot harder to accidentally kill someone with a knife. I think death rates before guns were invented were probably much higher than they are now - all due to the effective application of knife technology. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
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A shame,because I thought his book "Stupid White Men..." was the funniest thing I'd read in a while! As for guns. Well, I've heard it said many times that "guns don't kill people, it's people that kill". Well, that may be true but guns make it a LOT EASIER to kill, and therein lies the problem. As so people resorting to chemicals/dynamite ... awwwww ... come on Stan! This took the shine off your entire comment!
Faith. Believing in something you *know* isn't true.
Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: As so people resorting to chemicals/dynamite ... awwwww ... come on Stan! This took the shine off your entire comment! I don't know why you say that. With a gun I can be a bit selective in who I kill. With dynamite, I just take out the entire block to get my enemy. The point is that if people want to kill they will find a way. The absence of guns will not change that. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
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did you even see the movie? because that's just about exactly what moore says. -c
“losinger is a colorizing text edit control” -- googlism
I have not seen the movie, and don't intend to. I've seen Moore on any number of talk shows recently, and I've glanced through his book "Stupid White Men", the logic of which I found to be absolutly ludicrous. By making an issue of guns, I think Moore minimizes the real issue. If we really want to resolve the issue of violence we are going to have to approach the problem in a far more draconian fashion than merely rounding up all the guns. Frankly, I think I am more comfortable with the disease than I would be with the medicine. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
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I have not seen the movie, and don't intend to. I've seen Moore on any number of talk shows recently, and I've glanced through his book "Stupid White Men", the logic of which I found to be absolutly ludicrous. By making an issue of guns, I think Moore minimizes the real issue. If we really want to resolve the issue of violence we are going to have to approach the problem in a far more draconian fashion than merely rounding up all the guns. Frankly, I think I am more comfortable with the disease than I would be with the medicine. "Any clod can have the facts, but having opinions is an art." Charles McCabe, San Francisco Chronicle
Stan Shannon wrote: merely rounding up all the guns. FYI, Moore doesn't suggest this. he's actually an NRA member. -c
“losinger is a colorizing text edit control” -- googlism