New Bill Gives Obama ‘Kill Switch’ To Shut Down The Internet
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Then, really, I can't call you a liberal. I'd call you authoritarian. Look, the freedom of speech is precisely the one thing that made this country great. That, and as presented to me before, representation. So really, if you draw the line somewhere, then that line will continually be moved. In the end it comes down to the fact that either you're free, or you're not. Either you have the right to speak, or you don't. Your choice.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two.josda1000 wrote:
Then, really, I can't call you a liberal. I'd call you authoritarian.
Well, labels are always convenient, I guess.
josda1000 wrote:
. So really, if you draw the line somewhere, then that line will continually be moved.
So, you'd defend my freedom to yell 'fire' in a crowded room ? To tell people that they should rob your house because your political beliefs or race or hair color take away your rights to property ? To suggest that all people of any particular race should be killed for the good of society ?
josda1000 wrote:
In the end it comes down to the fact that either you're free, or you're not. Either you have the right to speak, or you don't. Your choice.
This sort of black and white thinking is, in my opinion, the core reason for what I see as cognitive dissonance on your part.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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It will give him power to command ISPs to shutdown service, or to block certain website deemed "dangerous".
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
And as usual, you take the facts and let someone spin doctor them for you in to something they are not.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Free speech has to have limits. I'm not saying I agree with where they are (although I can't think of any example I disagree with too strongly), but it's still true, there have to be limits, it's not some great mantra that must always be obeyed.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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josda1000 wrote:
Then, really, I can't call you a liberal. I'd call you authoritarian.
Well, labels are always convenient, I guess.
josda1000 wrote:
. So really, if you draw the line somewhere, then that line will continually be moved.
So, you'd defend my freedom to yell 'fire' in a crowded room ? To tell people that they should rob your house because your political beliefs or race or hair color take away your rights to property ? To suggest that all people of any particular race should be killed for the good of society ?
josda1000 wrote:
In the end it comes down to the fact that either you're free, or you're not. Either you have the right to speak, or you don't. Your choice.
This sort of black and white thinking is, in my opinion, the core reason for what I see as cognitive dissonance on your part.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
So, you'd defend my freedom to yell 'fire' in a crowded room ? To tell people that they should rob your house because your political beliefs or race or hair color take away your rights to property ? To suggest that all people of any particular race should be killed for the good of society ?
Yes, I'll defend your freedom to say it. But the reasons as to why you can be arrested for such abuses: Yelling fire in a crowded room, if there is none existing, is a violation of other's freedom (property rights, fraud, perception). Telling people to rob houses because of race or political beliefs is still telling people to rob people, which is against the law. Guilt by association. But, logically speaking, being racist isn't a crime, and people are always hating on political beliefs. So that part is free, though racism is stupid, and I think we all agree there. To suggest that all people of a particular race should be killed is ok, but actually doing it is murder, and you must be prosecuted. Again, if you're going to defend freedom, you really have to defend it. Just because something's not PC doesn't mean that it's completely wrong.
Christian Graus wrote:
This sort of black and white thinking is, in my opinion, the core reason for what I see as cognitive dissonance on your part.
I know. You're not used to it. Neither am I, honestly. But I like it, it's opened up my mind.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two. -
Then, really, I can't call you a liberal. I'd call you authoritarian. Look, the freedom of speech is precisely the one thing that made this country great. That, and as presented to me before, representation. So really, if you draw the line somewhere, then that line will continually be moved. In the end it comes down to the fact that either you're free, or you're not. Either you have the right to speak, or you don't. Your choice.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two.No, Free Speech doesn't work that way either. Lines have been drawn since the beginning of the country. You do NOT have the right to say something that can endanger someone. There is a line that everyone agrees on. I yell "FIRE!" in a movie theater, I am in trouble. You don't have the right to drag someone's good name through the mud in an unfounded manner publically. It's a civil matter, but it is still well established. Either slander and libel are both in place to stop this. You CAN say you believe something, or think something is the case and mock someone, but you can't say it is a certainty when it is a lie. You have the right to speak, within reason. Some stuff is not allowed simply because it is dangerous to people's well being or reputation. (The second can still be done, as long as it is not misrepresenting things.) Time and place also matter. People can have a rally, assembly, whatever at a normal time. But if they are having your rally at 3 am in a residential neighborhood the cops can, will, and should come stop it. Their right to speak your mind to their buddies does not trump our right to sleep or be free of the rally.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
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Christian Graus wrote:
So, you'd defend my freedom to yell 'fire' in a crowded room ? To tell people that they should rob your house because your political beliefs or race or hair color take away your rights to property ? To suggest that all people of any particular race should be killed for the good of society ?
Yes, I'll defend your freedom to say it. But the reasons as to why you can be arrested for such abuses: Yelling fire in a crowded room, if there is none existing, is a violation of other's freedom (property rights, fraud, perception). Telling people to rob houses because of race or political beliefs is still telling people to rob people, which is against the law. Guilt by association. But, logically speaking, being racist isn't a crime, and people are always hating on political beliefs. So that part is free, though racism is stupid, and I think we all agree there. To suggest that all people of a particular race should be killed is ok, but actually doing it is murder, and you must be prosecuted. Again, if you're going to defend freedom, you really have to defend it. Just because something's not PC doesn't mean that it's completely wrong.
Christian Graus wrote:
This sort of black and white thinking is, in my opinion, the core reason for what I see as cognitive dissonance on your part.
I know. You're not used to it. Neither am I, honestly. But I like it, it's opened up my mind.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two.josda1000 wrote:
But the reasons as to why you can be arrested for such abuses:
Ah, so I am free to say it, but not free to not be arrested ? Well, that's what I believe, too. I think, for example, that neo Nazis should be given the light of day, so they can be openly mocked, in the dark, their views fester. But, some people think free speech means being able to say whatever you like, with no consequences.
josda1000 wrote:
To suggest that all people of a particular race should be killed is ok, but actually doing it is murder, and you must be prosecuted.
So you can say it, so long as you don't mean it ? I disagree, here. My freedom should never impinge on the freedom of others. That's really the simple concept. I am free to not be interfered with, but so are you.
josda1000 wrote:
Again, if you're going to defend freedom, you really have to defend it. Just because something's not PC doesn't mean that it's completely wrong.
That much is true. But, there are things that it is unreasonable for anyone to suggest are not wrong.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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josda1000 wrote:
Then, really, I can't call you a liberal. I'd call you authoritarian.
Well, labels are always convenient, I guess.
josda1000 wrote:
. So really, if you draw the line somewhere, then that line will continually be moved.
So, you'd defend my freedom to yell 'fire' in a crowded room ? To tell people that they should rob your house because your political beliefs or race or hair color take away your rights to property ? To suggest that all people of any particular race should be killed for the good of society ?
josda1000 wrote:
In the end it comes down to the fact that either you're free, or you're not. Either you have the right to speak, or you don't. Your choice.
This sort of black and white thinking is, in my opinion, the core reason for what I see as cognitive dissonance on your part.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
So, you'd defend my freedom to yell 'fire' in a crowded room ?
I covered this, it is against the law and not covered by free speech if done in a public place where it can be assumed people would be injured by the subsequent panic. I can yell "FIRE!" in a public park and be perfectly fine if it would not cause a stampede.
Christian Graus wrote:
To tell people that they should rob your house because your political beliefs or race or hair color take away your rights to property ?
You can tell them that all you want. There's no law against it unless it incites a riot, and that's for inciting the action. I could tell everyone here where you live and your phone number and that they should threaten you in an ominous manner, doesn't mean jack.
Christian Graus wrote:
To suggest that all people of any particular race should be killed for the good of society ?
People do that in America all the time. Fully protected speech. No law against it. Now if these things were being done in front of a person's house, at 2 am with a lawn ornament on fire, that would be against the law since they would never have been given a permit to hold a public demonstration, and the fire would be considered an actual threat to the person's life. In the case of free speech, the context of where and when matters.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
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josda1000 wrote:
But the reasons as to why you can be arrested for such abuses:
Ah, so I am free to say it, but not free to not be arrested ? Well, that's what I believe, too. I think, for example, that neo Nazis should be given the light of day, so they can be openly mocked, in the dark, their views fester. But, some people think free speech means being able to say whatever you like, with no consequences.
josda1000 wrote:
To suggest that all people of a particular race should be killed is ok, but actually doing it is murder, and you must be prosecuted.
So you can say it, so long as you don't mean it ? I disagree, here. My freedom should never impinge on the freedom of others. That's really the simple concept. I am free to not be interfered with, but so are you.
josda1000 wrote:
Again, if you're going to defend freedom, you really have to defend it. Just because something's not PC doesn't mean that it's completely wrong.
That much is true. But, there are things that it is unreasonable for anyone to suggest are not wrong.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
So you can say it, so long as you don't mean it ? I disagree, here. My freedom should never impinge on the freedom of others.
Technically, speaking it doesn't impinge on theirs, here. Here, you have to be caught in the act, or acted on it already. There is such a thing as conspiring to commit the act, which is an act of aggression anyway, and that's why conspiring in this case is a crime. But saying it, in the open, will get you public distrust anyway, and is immoral too. So obviously I don't think you'll see anyone running around the streets saying they're going to kill people, but I think you should be free to do so. With freedom comes responsibility. You have to use freedom with your own caution, but feel free to act in any manner you choose. In this case, though, I think we can safely agree it's a matter of property rights.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two. -
Christian Graus wrote:
So, you'd defend my freedom to yell 'fire' in a crowded room ?
I covered this, it is against the law and not covered by free speech if done in a public place where it can be assumed people would be injured by the subsequent panic. I can yell "FIRE!" in a public park and be perfectly fine if it would not cause a stampede.
Christian Graus wrote:
To tell people that they should rob your house because your political beliefs or race or hair color take away your rights to property ?
You can tell them that all you want. There's no law against it unless it incites a riot, and that's for inciting the action. I could tell everyone here where you live and your phone number and that they should threaten you in an ominous manner, doesn't mean jack.
Christian Graus wrote:
To suggest that all people of any particular race should be killed for the good of society ?
People do that in America all the time. Fully protected speech. No law against it. Now if these things were being done in front of a person's house, at 2 am with a lawn ornament on fire, that would be against the law since they would never have been given a permit to hold a public demonstration, and the fire would be considered an actual threat to the person's life. In the case of free speech, the context of where and when matters.
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
ragnaroknrol wrote:
I could tell everyone here where you live and your phone number and that they should threaten you in an ominous manner, doesn't mean jack.
CSS tried to threaten me with that already :P But, if it can be shown that someone did rob me because you encouraged and pushed them to do it, have you not committed a crime at that point ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Then, really, I can't call you a liberal. I'd call you authoritarian. Look, the freedom of speech is precisely the one thing that made this country great. That, and as presented to me before, representation. So really, if you draw the line somewhere, then that line will continually be moved. In the end it comes down to the fact that either you're free, or you're not. Either you have the right to speak, or you don't. Your choice.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two.josda1000 wrote:
Look, the freedom of speech is precisely the one thing that made this country great. That, and as presented to me before, representation. So really, if you draw the line somewhere, then that line will continually be moved. In the end it comes down to the fact that either you're free, or you're not. Either you have the right to speak, or you don't. Your choice.
Here's the line, as effectively enforced: You can say whatever you like so long as it does not cause harm to someone else. Technically you can say 'Go kill that judge', but the moment someone tries you can wind up on trial. I say this using a case of a particular brand of nutbag who did just that, and was surprised when he got raided by the feds. Which is the same line as 'Your freedoms don't trump mine' that most liberals back. Compared to the 'My freedoms are the only ones that ever matter' approach folks like CSS take.
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josda1000 wrote:
Look, the freedom of speech is precisely the one thing that made this country great. That, and as presented to me before, representation. So really, if you draw the line somewhere, then that line will continually be moved. In the end it comes down to the fact that either you're free, or you're not. Either you have the right to speak, or you don't. Your choice.
Here's the line, as effectively enforced: You can say whatever you like so long as it does not cause harm to someone else. Technically you can say 'Go kill that judge', but the moment someone tries you can wind up on trial. I say this using a case of a particular brand of nutbag who did just that, and was surprised when he got raided by the feds. Which is the same line as 'Your freedoms don't trump mine' that most liberals back. Compared to the 'My freedoms are the only ones that ever matter' approach folks like CSS take.
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Christian Graus wrote:
So you can say it, so long as you don't mean it ? I disagree, here. My freedom should never impinge on the freedom of others.
Technically, speaking it doesn't impinge on theirs, here. Here, you have to be caught in the act, or acted on it already. There is such a thing as conspiring to commit the act, which is an act of aggression anyway, and that's why conspiring in this case is a crime. But saying it, in the open, will get you public distrust anyway, and is immoral too. So obviously I don't think you'll see anyone running around the streets saying they're going to kill people, but I think you should be free to do so. With freedom comes responsibility. You have to use freedom with your own caution, but feel free to act in any manner you choose. In this case, though, I think we can safely agree it's a matter of property rights.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two.josda1000 wrote:
So obviously I don't think you'll see anyone running around the streets saying they're going to kill people, but I think you should be free to do so.
I was trying to create an example that led more to people encouraging racism or other hate crimes.
josda1000 wrote:
With freedom comes responsibility.
There's no responsibility if there's no consequences for being irresponsible.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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josda1000 wrote:
So obviously I don't think you'll see anyone running around the streets saying they're going to kill people, but I think you should be free to do so.
I was trying to create an example that led more to people encouraging racism or other hate crimes.
josda1000 wrote:
With freedom comes responsibility.
There's no responsibility if there's no consequences for being irresponsible.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
I was trying to create an example that led more to people encouraging racism or other hate crimes.
I noticed.
Christian Graus wrote:
There's no responsibility if there's no consequences for being irresponsible.
Was I suggesting that?
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two. -
Christian Graus wrote:
I was trying to create an example that led more to people encouraging racism or other hate crimes.
I noticed.
Christian Graus wrote:
There's no responsibility if there's no consequences for being irresponsible.
Was I suggesting that?
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two.josda1000 wrote:
Was I suggesting that?
Not directly, but that's the point I was seeking to make in saying there must be limits on the freedom of speech.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Right. For probably a limited amount of time, they would, to certain ISPs. But not the whole damned thing. I mean I know what you're saying, but the way it was spun is completely uncalled for. What I'm concerned about is the constant banning of certain channels on youtube... that's the start of it. And then this bill. So yes I'm in your court, but it's still incorrect. And yes, it will inhibit freedom. As usual. The purpose of the federal government was to protect liberty, not destroy it. And that's what we see. Correct?
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two.josda1000 wrote:
Right. For probably a limited amount of time, they would, to certain ISPs. But not the whole damned thing.
You are trying to deny the fact that the president will have the authority to shut down the internet in America. You can try to play it down or reason with yourself all you want but it doesn't change the bill.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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ragnaroknrol wrote:
I could tell everyone here where you live and your phone number and that they should threaten you in an ominous manner, doesn't mean jack.
CSS tried to threaten me with that already :P But, if it can be shown that someone did rob me because you encouraged and pushed them to do it, have you not committed a crime at that point ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Not in any real sense. Inciting someone to do something isn't considered a crime just because: 1: Freedom of speech also applies to actions. (They had the right to ignore me) 2: I didn't actually do anything to you. I might be tried with "conspiracy to commit..." but that's harder to actually convict on. "I didn't think he'd be stupid enough to listen to me" Even then, you have to show a pattern of pressure to indicate I did more than just be a blow hard. My phrasing on that was not a coincidence. :)
If I have accidentally said something witty, smart, or correct, it is purely by mistake and I apologize for it.
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Christian Graus wrote:
So, you'd defend my freedom to yell 'fire' in a crowded room ? To tell people that they should rob your house because your political beliefs or race or hair color take away your rights to property ? To suggest that all people of any particular race should be killed for the good of society ?
Yes, I'll defend your freedom to say it. But the reasons as to why you can be arrested for such abuses: Yelling fire in a crowded room, if there is none existing, is a violation of other's freedom (property rights, fraud, perception). Telling people to rob houses because of race or political beliefs is still telling people to rob people, which is against the law. Guilt by association. But, logically speaking, being racist isn't a crime, and people are always hating on political beliefs. So that part is free, though racism is stupid, and I think we all agree there. To suggest that all people of a particular race should be killed is ok, but actually doing it is murder, and you must be prosecuted. Again, if you're going to defend freedom, you really have to defend it. Just because something's not PC doesn't mean that it's completely wrong.
Christian Graus wrote:
This sort of black and white thinking is, in my opinion, the core reason for what I see as cognitive dissonance on your part.
I know. You're not used to it. Neither am I, honestly. But I like it, it's opened up my mind.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two.My yelling fire doesn't kill anyone. It's the one's who believe it and turn and stampede that kill someone. How am I responsible for other people's actions?
Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. [Yogi Berra]
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josda1000 wrote:
Was I suggesting that?
Not directly, but that's the point I was seeking to make in saying there must be limits on the freedom of speech.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Understood. I think we're on the same page then.
Josh Davis
Always looking for blackjack. Or maybe White Frank. One of the two.I suspect we're quite often closer to being on the same page that you might first think, although there are clearly issues we disagree on.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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My yelling fire doesn't kill anyone. It's the one's who believe it and turn and stampede that kill someone. How am I responsible for other people's actions?
Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is. [Yogi Berra]
You forgot the joke icon.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.