Smacking to be outlawed ???
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Christian Graus wrote: I should send you people my 2 year old for a bit, there is obviously some trick I am missing Put him on a plane !! I'll pick him up. -> I have never smacked my kids. My reasoning is that, I'll sort things out before it becomes a problem. The wife thinks I have to much control over the kids because I can make them cry by telling them that they have upset me. ->I hope that I never have to smack them, but I'd do it if I thought it was necessary, after seeking all other alternatives or their life's were endangered. No, even though I think smacking isn't needed I still don't want that right removed from me. ->Unfortunatly a lot of other parents still seem to use physical punishment far to easily. Smacking or even threatening to smack a child on a regular basis, I see as stupidity, and proof that a parent has a lack of communication with the child. My opinions anyhow. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Colin Davies wrote: Put him on a plane !! I'll pick him up. You'll send him back, too. I love him to death, but he is very challenging. And FWIW, I don't smack him, because it doesn't do anything positive. It just makes him more defiant. Colin Davies wrote: No, even though I think smacking isn't needed I still don't want that right removed from me. If it's needed or not depends on the child. There are some things you need to teach them quickly - i.e. they need to know what STOP means pretty quickly. I was very strict about that one, because if they don't do it, it could cost them their life, in the wrong situation. Colin Davies wrote: Unfortunatly a lot of other parents still seem to use physical punishment far to easily. Probably, and probably a lot are not consistent, so it becomes about who is bigger, and not about establishing rules. This is why we have these lame laws coming in, it's easier to legislate than to give people common sense. Colin Davies wrote: Smacking or even threatening to smack a child on a regular basis, I see as stupidity, and proof that a parent has a lack of communication with the child. As I said, it depends on the child, and the approach. Controlled discipline from an early age should mean there is virtually no need for it by the age of 8. Hannah is 6 and rarely needs more than discussion of what is required. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Colin Davies wrote: Put him on a plane !! I'll pick him up. You'll send him back, too. I love him to death, but he is very challenging. And FWIW, I don't smack him, because it doesn't do anything positive. It just makes him more defiant. Colin Davies wrote: No, even though I think smacking isn't needed I still don't want that right removed from me. If it's needed or not depends on the child. There are some things you need to teach them quickly - i.e. they need to know what STOP means pretty quickly. I was very strict about that one, because if they don't do it, it could cost them their life, in the wrong situation. Colin Davies wrote: Unfortunatly a lot of other parents still seem to use physical punishment far to easily. Probably, and probably a lot are not consistent, so it becomes about who is bigger, and not about establishing rules. This is why we have these lame laws coming in, it's easier to legislate than to give people common sense. Colin Davies wrote: Smacking or even threatening to smack a child on a regular basis, I see as stupidity, and proof that a parent has a lack of communication with the child. As I said, it depends on the child, and the approach. Controlled discipline from an early age should mean there is virtually no need for it by the age of 8. Hannah is 6 and rarely needs more than discussion of what is required. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: If it's needed or not depends on the child. Ok, I almost see your viewpoint, but sometimes it's not the kid but the parent that needs educating. There are some lousy parents about, and it appears they are the folk best at breeding at times. One rule I think any parent that wishes to smack their child should follow, is to never smack a child out of anger or frustration. If this rule is broken it shows you are using emotion rather than logic, and are not considering what is best for the child. But yeah every child is different, and every situation is different. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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Pett wrote: I don't have any children, by the way. I can tell. Only people without children mix the terms 'beat' and 'smack' indiscriminently, or seem to somehow form the opinion that there are 'different and more effective ways' to discpline children which work in every case. How would you recommend a 2 year old with a 40 word vocabulary be disciplined ? Pett wrote: for example, when a child decides to push his whole head out of a moving vehicle. So not half the head, just the whole ? No offence, but people without children should not be allowed to enter this debate, that is where all unrealistic opinions stem from IMO. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: No offence, but people without children should not be allowed to enter this debate, that is where all unrealistic opinions stem from IMO. Why ? Everybody has been a child before, we all know the problem seen from the other point of view :rolleyes:
Who gives a f*ck If my life sucks ? I just know one day I won't give up Beg For Me/KoЯn
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Christian Graus wrote: If it's needed or not depends on the child. Ok, I almost see your viewpoint, but sometimes it's not the kid but the parent that needs educating. There are some lousy parents about, and it appears they are the folk best at breeding at times. One rule I think any parent that wishes to smack their child should follow, is to never smack a child out of anger or frustration. If this rule is broken it shows you are using emotion rather than logic, and are not considering what is best for the child. But yeah every child is different, and every situation is different. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Colin Davies wrote: One rule I think any parent that wishes to smack their child should follow, is to never smack a child out of anger or frustration. If this rule is broken it shows you are using emotion rather than logic, and are not considering what is best for the child. Absolutely - my parents smacked out of anger and all it taught me was that they were bigger than me and able to enforce their will. I discuss with Hannah first why I need to smack, I smack ONCE, and I discuss afterward what she needs to do in future. If I think it will be as beneficial, I skip the smack and just talk. When she was younger, the smack was needed more often. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Christian Graus wrote: No offence, but people without children should not be allowed to enter this debate, that is where all unrealistic opinions stem from IMO. Why ? Everybody has been a child before, we all know the problem seen from the other point of view :rolleyes:
Who gives a f*ck If my life sucks ? I just know one day I won't give up Beg For Me/KoЯn
KaЯl wrote: Why ? Everybody has been a child before, we all know the problem seen from the other point of view No, you don't. You remember not liking being punished. I wrote my mother a letter, telling her why I thought she was a terrible parent. I so wish I had waited until I had kids before presuming to talk about what is good and bad. I still think she was a bad parent, but I no longer expect parents to have all the answers, because I know what it's like to be one. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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It's not just the fact that you say NO, it's how you say it... I just do not belive in hitting children at all. They rememebr it (even if you think they don't). I do.
I'm sorry to hear you were hit in anger. I remember having hidings as a child - and I'm grateful for them. They were disciplined affairs, both parents present. A discussion preceded the hiding, where we discussed what I had done, why this could endanger my future, or why my actions could have hurt someone. A number of smacks (on the backside with a leather slipper) was decided upon, and administered (usually my younger brother got 4 and I got 4 or 6, depending on whether or not I should have been responsible enough to stop him as well as myself. We had a great childhood, but were always up to mischief, as only healthy kids can be). As I said, although they made me cry at the time, I was never bruised. I can also thank my father for giving us these hidings (although he later revealed to us that he had absolutely hated doing this when we were kids) as we are now both healthy adults with a firm sense of morality. My 3 cousins in England never got hidings - the 2 boys (now in their 30's) are in and out of jail for drug related offenses, and the girl (now 32) has a child of 14, and another of 11. Extreme case perhaps, but I'm still glad I got hidings. :)
Deploying a web application without understanding security is roughly equivalent to driving a car without seatbelts - down a slippery road, over a monstrous chasm, with no brakes, and the throttle jammed on full.
Hacking Exposed - Web Applications. Joel Scambray & Mike Shema
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Christian Graus wrote: I should send you people my 2 year old for a bit, there is obviously some trick I am missing Put him on a plane !! I'll pick him up. -> I have never smacked my kids. My reasoning is that, I'll sort things out before it becomes a problem. The wife thinks I have to much control over the kids because I can make them cry by telling them that they have upset me. ->I hope that I never have to smack them, but I'd do it if I thought it was necessary, after seeking all other alternatives or their life's were endangered. No, even though I think smacking isn't needed I still don't want that right removed from me. ->Unfortunatly a lot of other parents still seem to use physical punishment far to easily. Smacking or even threatening to smack a child on a regular basis, I see as stupidity, and proof that a parent has a lack of communication with the child. My opinions anyhow. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
This is true - I would imagine that if smacking were used for every small offense they would eventually just ignore it as much as kids seem to ignore parents who swear at them all the time.
Deploying a web application without understanding security is roughly equivalent to driving a car without seatbelts - down a slippery road, over a monstrous chasm, with no brakes, and the throttle jammed on full.
Hacking Exposed - Web Applications. Joel Scambray & Mike Shema
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KaЯl wrote: Why ? Everybody has been a child before, we all know the problem seen from the other point of view No, you don't. You remember not liking being punished. I wrote my mother a letter, telling her why I thought she was a terrible parent. I so wish I had waited until I had kids before presuming to talk about what is good and bad. I still think she was a bad parent, but I no longer expect parents to have all the answers, because I know what it's like to be one. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: still think she was a bad parent, but I no longer expect parents to have all the answers That's perhaps the difference, I think I was quiet well educated, so I think I've a model to follow. Even I've haven't any kid yet (:~ :rolleyes:), I can also see how others do and judge more objectively the result. However I've to say you're probably right, you have experience I lack on this point
Who gives a f*ck If my life sucks ? I just know one day I won't give up Beg For Me/KoЯn
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I'm sorry to hear you were hit in anger. I remember having hidings as a child - and I'm grateful for them. They were disciplined affairs, both parents present. A discussion preceded the hiding, where we discussed what I had done, why this could endanger my future, or why my actions could have hurt someone. A number of smacks (on the backside with a leather slipper) was decided upon, and administered (usually my younger brother got 4 and I got 4 or 6, depending on whether or not I should have been responsible enough to stop him as well as myself. We had a great childhood, but were always up to mischief, as only healthy kids can be). As I said, although they made me cry at the time, I was never bruised. I can also thank my father for giving us these hidings (although he later revealed to us that he had absolutely hated doing this when we were kids) as we are now both healthy adults with a firm sense of morality. My 3 cousins in England never got hidings - the 2 boys (now in their 30's) are in and out of jail for drug related offenses, and the girl (now 32) has a child of 14, and another of 11. Extreme case perhaps, but I'm still glad I got hidings. :)
Deploying a web application without understanding security is roughly equivalent to driving a car without seatbelts - down a slippery road, over a monstrous chasm, with no brakes, and the throttle jammed on full.
Hacking Exposed - Web Applications. Joel Scambray & Mike Shema
Both my brother and I were smacked when we were kids, yet he still ended up in prison. How does that fit with your viewpoint? Your example of your cousins hints that you think they would be fine upstanding law-abiding citizens had they been given "hidings" as children, but the truth is that nothing is so black and white. Don't get me wrong, I agree with your thoughts on smacking children - but maybe your cousins would have turned out the same however they were disciplined as kids! :)
Kicking, squealing Gucci little piggy.
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Pett wrote: I don't have any children, by the way. I can tell. Only people without children mix the terms 'beat' and 'smack' indiscriminently, or seem to somehow form the opinion that there are 'different and more effective ways' to discpline children which work in every case. How would you recommend a 2 year old with a 40 word vocabulary be disciplined ? Pett wrote: for example, when a child decides to push his whole head out of a moving vehicle. So not half the head, just the whole ? No offence, but people without children should not be allowed to enter this debate, that is where all unrealistic opinions stem from IMO. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Why are you so defensive and touchy? You post something here and ask about how things are in different countries.. then you critise. When I used the word "beat", I meant "beat". When I said, "smack".. I meant "smack". In this country, people still "beat" children! Why can't I enter this debate if I don't have children? You are not the only man with a child! I have cousins, friend's children who look up to me... I've been a child! You are not very open-minded.
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Both my brother and I were smacked when we were kids, yet he still ended up in prison. How does that fit with your viewpoint? Your example of your cousins hints that you think they would be fine upstanding law-abiding citizens had they been given "hidings" as children, but the truth is that nothing is so black and white. Don't get me wrong, I agree with your thoughts on smacking children - but maybe your cousins would have turned out the same however they were disciplined as kids! :)
Kicking, squealing Gucci little piggy.
Quite possible - but a lack of discipline can't have helped. Every family is individual, just as each of us are individual. I don't have all the answers, but I'm sure a lack of discipline is as unloving as too much discipline.
Deploying a web application without understanding security is roughly equivalent to driving a car without seatbelts - down a slippery road, over a monstrous chasm, with no brakes, and the throttle jammed on full.
Hacking Exposed - Web Applications. Joel Scambray & Mike Shema
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Ray Cassick wrote: They rememebr it (even if you think they don't). I do. I am sorry that you were smacked out of anger, or in an otherwise inappropriate manner, and that it has clouded your judgement. No kids, right ? Either that, or they will end up in prison. I was smacked out of anger a lot, too, but that does not mean that I have some airy-fairy notion of parenting that has no basis in reality. It means that I know the difference between 'smacking' and 'beating'. It disturbs me when this is discussed how many people use the terms interchangably. Ray Cassick wrote: It's not just the fact that you say NO, it's how you say it... Ray Cassick wrote: I just do not belive in hitting children at all. Get back to me when you have kids, and if you still think that there is some magic intonation in your voice that makes a child obey you right off without any guidance, then get back to me when they are in jail. Seriously, I am sick of bleeding heart crap from people who have no idea. I am truly sorry that you've had a bad experience, but this jump from one extreme to another is what is killing society as a whole. Reasonable use of physical punishment in a consistent manner is part of teaching a child how to turn into a socially responsbile adult. 'Reasoning' with a two year old does not work, saying 'no' is meaningless if all you do when they ignore you is say 'no' again. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: Get back to me when you have kids Christian Graus wrote: 'Reasoning' with a two year old does not work, saying 'no' is meaningless if all you do when they ignore you is say 'no' again. I have a child. Maybe I am lucky, but we are good freinds, and have a terrific relationship. Mpt to say that he stretches his wings a bit now and then and tries to assert himself. I deal with it in a non-violent manner. Do I hit? NO. Have I been known to yell LOUDLY? YES. There is always an alternative when it comes to raising a hand to a child. Period.
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For years the laws have grown more limiting on parents here, and society has declined severely because of it. You can't even spank a child - not beat, there's a huge difference - without running the risk of having your children taken from you. One phone call from a neighbor, or even the child, is enough to have Child Protective Services crash into your house without a warrant, take your children, prevent you from visiting them, have you arrested without investigation or proof, and subject you to a prolonged and expensive legal process to prove that you are a decent enough person to be allowed to see your children again in your lifetime. The children know this, and actively threaten to call anytime they disagree with anything a parent attempts to enforce. Is it any wonder that they grow up with no sense of personal responsibility or respect for law? "When in danger, fear, or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!" - Lorelei and Lapis Lazuli Long
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Ray Cassick wrote: They rememebr it (even if you think they don't). I do. I am sorry that you were smacked out of anger, or in an otherwise inappropriate manner, and that it has clouded your judgement. No kids, right ? Either that, or they will end up in prison. I was smacked out of anger a lot, too, but that does not mean that I have some airy-fairy notion of parenting that has no basis in reality. It means that I know the difference between 'smacking' and 'beating'. It disturbs me when this is discussed how many people use the terms interchangably. Ray Cassick wrote: It's not just the fact that you say NO, it's how you say it... Ray Cassick wrote: I just do not belive in hitting children at all. Get back to me when you have kids, and if you still think that there is some magic intonation in your voice that makes a child obey you right off without any guidance, then get back to me when they are in jail. Seriously, I am sick of bleeding heart crap from people who have no idea. I am truly sorry that you've had a bad experience, but this jump from one extreme to another is what is killing society as a whole. Reasonable use of physical punishment in a consistent manner is part of teaching a child how to turn into a socially responsbile adult. 'Reasoning' with a two year old does not work, saying 'no' is meaningless if all you do when they ignore you is say 'no' again. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: I just do not belive in hitting children at all. Get back to me when you have kids, and if you still think that there is some magic intonation in your voice that makes a child obey you right off without any guidance, then get back to me when they are in jail. This just doesn't follow: you don't smack kids and they go off the rails? What nonsense. I wasn't smacked as a child, and I don't smack my children either. I'm not a jailbird or a junkie, and I expect the statistics would show that countries where smacking has been suppressed have not sunk into lawlessness. I respected my parents without the need for it. No I don't have perfect children (thank goodness!) but there are far more effective ways to discipline *my* children. Threatening to withdraw his gameboy is pretty much the ultimate threat... Incidentally, I am not arguing that smacking should be criminalised, but I very much resent the fact that you are arguing that society would be better off if we all did it! Debbie
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The paper is running a story today to say that the gubberment is going to outlaw all smacking of children by parents, or anyone else. They claim the current law is not precise enough, so they want a blanket ban, and cite cases like a child being forced to smoke a cigarette, and then eat the butt, and a child being repeatedly prodded with an electric cattle prod. HELLO ??!?!?!??!?!!!! First of all if the current law is not sufficient to prosecute these people, then it was drafted by a moron, and secondly, people who treat their kids like that are not rational human beings and unlikely to change just because it's the law. The cattle prod tells you what locations such people tend to live in, where their children are not that likely to have contact with people able to recognise and deal with the problem. How does removing another framework of discipline for our young help them in any way ? Is this the case in other countries ? The police can pucker up and kiss my fat behind if they think I will stop guiding my children in how to grow into responsible adults on the basis of some law passed by someone who obviously has never had children ( and in this state, is probably gay ). Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: and in this state, is probably gay Eh ? Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?
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Christian Graus wrote: I just do not belive in hitting children at all. Get back to me when you have kids, and if you still think that there is some magic intonation in your voice that makes a child obey you right off without any guidance, then get back to me when they are in jail. This just doesn't follow: you don't smack kids and they go off the rails? What nonsense. I wasn't smacked as a child, and I don't smack my children either. I'm not a jailbird or a junkie, and I expect the statistics would show that countries where smacking has been suppressed have not sunk into lawlessness. I respected my parents without the need for it. No I don't have perfect children (thank goodness!) but there are far more effective ways to discipline *my* children. Threatening to withdraw his gameboy is pretty much the ultimate threat... Incidentally, I am not arguing that smacking should be criminalised, but I very much resent the fact that you are arguing that society would be better off if we all did it! Debbie
My 18 month old doesn't have a gameboy. So sometimes you have to spank.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
The paper is running a story today to say that the gubberment is going to outlaw all smacking of children by parents, or anyone else. They claim the current law is not precise enough, so they want a blanket ban, and cite cases like a child being forced to smoke a cigarette, and then eat the butt, and a child being repeatedly prodded with an electric cattle prod. HELLO ??!?!?!??!?!!!! First of all if the current law is not sufficient to prosecute these people, then it was drafted by a moron, and secondly, people who treat their kids like that are not rational human beings and unlikely to change just because it's the law. The cattle prod tells you what locations such people tend to live in, where their children are not that likely to have contact with people able to recognise and deal with the problem. How does removing another framework of discipline for our young help them in any way ? Is this the case in other countries ? The police can pucker up and kiss my fat behind if they think I will stop guiding my children in how to grow into responsible adults on the basis of some law passed by someone who obviously has never had children ( and in this state, is probably gay ). Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
And how is this a government function? Christ, like DSS doesn't f**k up enough already. The real problem is we don't allow judges to judge anymore. For some stupid-ass reason lawmakers started to think they could write an exact punishment for every situation, then having failed at that, they simply decide to ban in sweeping reforms like this. It preposterous and unproductive. F*&^ing liberals!!!!:mad: BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
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My 18 month old doesn't have a gameboy. So sometimes you have to spank.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism * -
It would be nice to know which country's laws people were referring to in this discussion! Debbie
Debs wrote: It would be nice to know which country's laws people were referring to in this discussion! The US, in my case. For the others, click on the poster's icon to check their bios - country of origin is included there.:) "When in danger, fear, or doubt, run in circles, scream and shout!" - Lorelei and Lapis Lazuli Long
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Christian Graus wrote: and in this state, is probably gay Eh ? Would you like to meet my teddy bear ?
I think what Christian was implying was, given the demographics of the political district in which he lives, there's a good chance the man is homosexual... Shog9 ------
The Army's on Ecstasy, so they say - I read all about it in USA Today. They stepped up urine testing to make it go away, 'cause it's hard to kill the enemy on ol' MDMA...- Oysterhead