See how they reacted to wikileaks?
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US govt is butthurt and is saying "Down with WikiLeaks! We'll put all our best lawyers on it!" In the Netherlands, the govt is asking the army why they didn't report the civilian deaths. Discuss?
The Gov or the Military? Given the reports and standard bullshit filters anything goes through before it hits the public from our military I don't think anyone in the US is all that surprised. But I hadn't seen the government come out and jumping on people, just the typical military over reaction. Though from what I had read I thought the numbers had been reported in an aggregated form, just not the individual cases.
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The Gov or the Military? Given the reports and standard bullshit filters anything goes through before it hits the public from our military I don't think anyone in the US is all that surprised. But I hadn't seen the government come out and jumping on people, just the typical military over reaction. Though from what I had read I thought the numbers had been reported in an aggregated form, just not the individual cases.
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Gotta love WikiLeaks... It shows the true power of the Internet. The more information flowing around out there, the better off we all are. And the more the government fights it, the more attention and credibility it receives. It's the Streisand effect at its finest. "You can't stop the signal, Mal. Everything goes somewhere, and I go everywhere." - Mr. Universe, "Serenity"
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Gotta love WikiLeaks... It shows the true power of the Internet. The more information flowing around out there, the better off we all are. And the more the government fights it, the more attention and credibility it receives. It's the Streisand effect at its finest. "You can't stop the signal, Mal. Everything goes somewhere, and I go everywhere." - Mr. Universe, "Serenity"
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
It shows the true power of the Internet.
Nope. I believe that they are demonstrating their abuse of free speech at the potential expense of our servicemen's lives. You can read what I have had to say about this next door (S.B.1)[^]. Pity that Harold isn't a member of that private forum, but you Ian are.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
It shows the true power of the Internet.
Nope. I believe that they are demonstrating their abuse of free speech at the potential expense of our servicemen's lives. You can read what I have had to say about this next door (S.B.1)[^]. Pity that Harold isn't a member of that private forum, but you Ian are.
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Not that inflammatory, but over 40 postings there, so an overview would not begin do the subject justice
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Distind wrote:
The Gov or the Military?
Dutch news makes it appear like it's coming from both, would the USian news be more accurate?
Possibly, The only response I'm seeing is the white house calling it irresponsible and how wiki leaks had not informed them of the information before posting it. Though the military is probably screaming it's way in circles right now. I'm not seeing anything in the way of mass over reaction publicly at the moment, no bills to condemn it in our legislature, no executive ranting about the damage to our security. Just typical military damage control.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
It shows the true power of the Internet.
Nope. I believe that they are demonstrating their abuse of free speech at the potential expense of our servicemen's lives. You can read what I have had to say about this next door (S.B.1)[^]. Pity that Harold isn't a member of that private forum, but you Ian are.
Skimmed through the thread there. You do make a valid point, but this isn't a black-and-white issue. If we just assume that everything related to the military is off limits, and don't even TRY to see what's going on, then we're giving the generals free reign to pretty much do anything they want. Then again, if we reveal EVERYTHING, we're making any military action pretty much futile (One look at Art of War will teach you how important secrecy is). So I think this is a gray area... We don't want everything out there, but we don't want 100% secrecy. I think WikiLeaks itself is a good compromise. Think of the process flow here... 1) Someone on the inside, with at least some intelligence (It's not trivial to get "secret" information out of the military networks) has to risk prosecution to release something like that. That means someone with an inside viewpoint considers it to have a certain level of importance. 2) WikiLeaks itself has a review process, and I HOPE they would have the presence of mind to reject anything with obvious consequences (Plans for upcoming missions, etc). Is it perfect? No. Is it ideal? No. So how do we make this better? It can't be a military-controlled process, as that brings us right back to the military being able to keep whatever secrets it wants (And in military terms, that means pretty much everything). Putting control in the hands of congress is not ideal, since again, everything will still just be bottled up. I don't know what the ideal solution would be, but there needs to be some way to make sure the military isn't crossing the line. Sure, war is brutal, and collateral damage WILL happen, but there's still a line in the sand that shouldn't be crossed, whether it's the abuses in Gitmo, intentional targeting of civilians, etc.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Skimmed through the thread there. You do make a valid point, but this isn't a black-and-white issue. If we just assume that everything related to the military is off limits, and don't even TRY to see what's going on, then we're giving the generals free reign to pretty much do anything they want. Then again, if we reveal EVERYTHING, we're making any military action pretty much futile (One look at Art of War will teach you how important secrecy is). So I think this is a gray area... We don't want everything out there, but we don't want 100% secrecy. I think WikiLeaks itself is a good compromise. Think of the process flow here... 1) Someone on the inside, with at least some intelligence (It's not trivial to get "secret" information out of the military networks) has to risk prosecution to release something like that. That means someone with an inside viewpoint considers it to have a certain level of importance. 2) WikiLeaks itself has a review process, and I HOPE they would have the presence of mind to reject anything with obvious consequences (Plans for upcoming missions, etc). Is it perfect? No. Is it ideal? No. So how do we make this better? It can't be a military-controlled process, as that brings us right back to the military being able to keep whatever secrets it wants (And in military terms, that means pretty much everything). Putting control in the hands of congress is not ideal, since again, everything will still just be bottled up. I don't know what the ideal solution would be, but there needs to be some way to make sure the military isn't crossing the line. Sure, war is brutal, and collateral damage WILL happen, but there's still a line in the sand that shouldn't be crossed, whether it's the abuses in Gitmo, intentional targeting of civilians, etc.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
then we're giving the generals free reign to pretty much do anything they want
No. The Generals are always subject to civilian control be it your POTUS or UK Prime Minister and so on. And they will be dismissed as necessary if they overstep the bounds of their remit. Documents that are confidential/secret/top secret are so classified so that those who must not know are denied knowledge and that includes members of the press, the peoples and websites such as Wikileaks, Infowars and so forth. Purpose is the restrict the probability that the enemy can do harm.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
has to risk prosecution to release something like that
There are reasons why Official Secrets Acts exist, and they are to protect the country against those enemies who would do us harm.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
WikiLeaks itself has a review process
So! I have review processes from time to time but that doesn't give me the rights to publish state secrets.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
I don't know what the ideal solution would be
At the conclusion of ALL hostilities plus a period of time most appropriate, then you can start to discharge these documents into the public arena. Just like what happened after the conclusion of WWI, WWII, etc.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
but there needs to be some way to make sure the military isn't crossing the line
This is why you have civilian control. This is why you hold (usually) private, but can be public, investigative reviews where prosecutions do happen where wrongful acts have occurred by the military.
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
then we're giving the generals free reign to pretty much do anything they want
No. The Generals are always subject to civilian control be it your POTUS or UK Prime Minister and so on. And they will be dismissed as necessary if they overstep the bounds of their remit. Documents that are confidential/secret/top secret are so classified so that those who must not know are denied knowledge and that includes members of the press, the peoples and websites such as Wikileaks, Infowars and so forth. Purpose is the restrict the probability that the enemy can do harm.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
has to risk prosecution to release something like that
There are reasons why Official Secrets Acts exist, and they are to protect the country against those enemies who would do us harm.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
WikiLeaks itself has a review process
So! I have review processes from time to time but that doesn't give me the rights to publish state secrets.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
I don't know what the ideal solution would be
At the conclusion of ALL hostilities plus a period of time most appropriate, then you can start to discharge these documents into the public arena. Just like what happened after the conclusion of WWI, WWII, etc.
Ian Shlasko wrote:
but there needs to be some way to make sure the military isn't crossing the line
This is why you have civilian control. This is why you hold (usually) private, but can be public, investigative reviews where prosecutions do happen where wrongful acts have occurred by the military.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
The Generals are always subject to civilian control be it your POTUS or UK Prime Minister and so on.
I wasn't aware that they were civilians. Even if they were, who trusts them? They are god-level officials, authorities, officers. I'm all for exposing the fraud, corruption, and criminality in all aspects of the government, that includes the military. It does not compromise OUR security, it compromises the security of the elitists and crooks. It may cost a few lives on the ground, but its for a good cause. A better cause than opium and the interests of the elite ruling class and the whims of politicians.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
The Generals are always subject to civilian control be it your POTUS or UK Prime Minister and so on.
I wasn't aware that they were civilians. Even if they were, who trusts them? They are god-level officials, authorities, officers. I'm all for exposing the fraud, corruption, and criminality in all aspects of the government, that includes the military. It does not compromise OUR security, it compromises the security of the elitists and crooks. It may cost a few lives on the ground, but its for a good cause. A better cause than opium and the interests of the elite ruling class and the whims of politicians.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
It may cost a few lives on the ground, but its for a good cause.
Even one life lost, or one life compromised, as the result of those WikiLeak articles is one life too many.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
I'm all for exposing the fraud, corruption, and criminality in all aspects of the government, that includes the military.
Do so, but NOT while you are active in a war. Wait until the war concludes, then you can hold as many enquires as you like. Doing otherwise risks the competency, perhaps through paralysis, of our fighting forces.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
OUR security
In war MUST never be compromised by a whistle-blowing do-gooder
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Seems like there are quite some gray area's and possibly even mutually interfering laws at work there! Still, it kinda proves my point - the US is angry, the Netherlands are not. Among the 90k documents are some that describe "incidents" involving Dutch soldiers, incidents that were not properly reported (or at all). Reason enough for some RAAAGE here but the level of rage is very low. One political party has demanded an independent investigation, the military just tries to explain and/or deny everything, blaming ambiguous wording. Nowhere have I seen WikiLeaks being blamed for something bad.
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Seems like there are quite some gray area's and possibly even mutually interfering laws at work there! Still, it kinda proves my point - the US is angry, the Netherlands are not. Among the 90k documents are some that describe "incidents" involving Dutch soldiers, incidents that were not properly reported (or at all). Reason enough for some RAAAGE here but the level of rage is very low. One political party has demanded an independent investigation, the military just tries to explain and/or deny everything, blaming ambiguous wording. Nowhere have I seen WikiLeaks being blamed for something bad.
harold aptroot wrote:
incidents that were not properly reported
In the fog of war, such are not an overwhelming priority. The priority is the safety and fighting effectiveness of the armed forces.
harold aptroot wrote:
One political party has demanded an independent investigation
At the conclusion of this war plus an acceptable time scale thereafter, then you can hold as many public investigations as you like. BUT never while you are active at war.
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CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
It may cost a few lives on the ground, but its for a good cause.
Even one life lost, or one life compromised, as the result of those WikiLeak articles is one life too many.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
I'm all for exposing the fraud, corruption, and criminality in all aspects of the government, that includes the military.
Do so, but NOT while you are active in a war. Wait until the war concludes, then you can hold as many enquires as you like. Doing otherwise risks the competency, perhaps through paralysis, of our fighting forces.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
OUR security
In war MUST never be compromised by a whistle-blowing do-gooder
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Even one life lost, or one life compromised, as the result of those WikiLeak articles is one life too many.
I don't know about that... I haven't looked at the new leak yet, but yes, the ones I've seen have not been important enough, in my opinion, to risk lives to leak. I would agree that in the vast majority of cases, this is correct... But if things really do get bad, meaning if some chunk of the military starts to REALLY cross the line, it might be worth risking a few lives to save others... Lesser of two evils, and all that.
Richard A. Abbott wrote:
Do so, but NOT while you are active in a war. Wait until the war concludes, then you can hold as many enquires as you like.
Very sensible, in theory... But what happens when ol' Dubya starts the "War on Terror," which is never going to end... We're still in Iraq and Afghanistan, and before we pull out of those (If ever), we'll probably end up in Iran or North Korea or something... There may be no conclusion in the foreseeable future, which means any crimes that do occur would be buried almost indefinitely. Don't get me wrong... I understand where you're coming from, and in an ideal world, I think that's the right way to do things... This just isn't an ideal world, and the military has developed a reputation of being excessively secretive...
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
harold aptroot wrote:
incidents that were not properly reported
In the fog of war, such are not an overwhelming priority. The priority is the safety and fighting effectiveness of the armed forces.
harold aptroot wrote:
One political party has demanded an independent investigation
At the conclusion of this war plus an acceptable time scale thereafter, then you can hold as many public investigations as you like. BUT never while you are active at war.
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Richard A. Abbott wrote:
The Generals are always subject to civilian control be it your POTUS or UK Prime Minister and so on.
I wasn't aware that they were civilians. Even if they were, who trusts them? They are god-level officials, authorities, officers. I'm all for exposing the fraud, corruption, and criminality in all aspects of the government, that includes the military. It does not compromise OUR security, it compromises the security of the elitists and crooks. It may cost a few lives on the ground, but its for a good cause. A better cause than opium and the interests of the elite ruling class and the whims of politicians.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
They are god-level officials, authorities, officers.
Paranoid.
CaptainSeeSharp wrote:
It may cost a few lives on the ground, but its for a good cause.
How easy it is to say that when you know that it won't be your life that is compromised. And don't pretend that you are prepared to die for that cause. You, who will not go on a Tea Party protest because you are too afraid of the possible consequences. Makes one hope that H.R. 5741 is passed, and that you are immediately drafted to Afghanistan.
Bob Emmett New Eugenicist - The weekly magazine for intelligent parenting. Published by the New World Order Press.