Hello, CSS
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I know it is kind of weird for backroom citizens, but I appreciate your views on religion (that spirituality thingy). For those who don't get this, see Harold's post about Quran. Those who don't know who is Harold, get the hell out of here.
d@nish wrote:
Those who don't know who is Harold, get the hell out
Interesting, I didn't know I was a celebrity :) Anyway, in the latest (AFAIK) official religion polls in the Netherlands, 34% answered they believed in a God, 37% believed in some sort of spirit or a life force but not a god, and (almost) the rest believed in neither. I'm not sure what it means in this context, but maybe you can use it to prove a point or something..
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I know it is kind of weird for backroom citizens, but I appreciate your views on religion (that spirituality thingy). For those who don't get this, see Harold's post about Quran. Those who don't know who is Harold, get the hell out of here.
Everyone follows someone. And if you're completely original, someone will follow you. I am a Christian and in this industry there's not too many, so I take my flankings. I don't think religion should be stuffed in anyone's face, atheism included. If people want to meet to discuss the things they believe in, there should be nothing to stop them. Every major religion has something bad attached to it. I think, though, that you'd find that usually the wrongful acts are not because of the religion, but because of a person or group of people who are acting in spite of their beliefs, rather than in the name of them. This is as true for suicide bombers today as it was for the Holy Crusades in medieval times. There are things that, as a scientific mind, I have a hard time reconciling: evolution, expanse of the universe, other lifeforms, age of earth, etc. But there are principles in Christianity to live by that I hold as truths: compassion, mercy, generosity, peace, human rights, preservation of dignity, respect of others beliefs (which doesn't mean agreeing with them). My wife and I have made it through some incredibly hard times with the help of people in our church community, with things that even our families didn't or couldn't help with. And then, I've friends who aren't "spiritual" but have made it through some insanely hard times themselves. For that reason, I don't mock or criticize any man or woman for what they say they believe in, and I hope, in return, that I'll be judged by my actions and not by what others think I place my faith in.
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Everyone follows someone. And if you're completely original, someone will follow you. I am a Christian and in this industry there's not too many, so I take my flankings. I don't think religion should be stuffed in anyone's face, atheism included. If people want to meet to discuss the things they believe in, there should be nothing to stop them. Every major religion has something bad attached to it. I think, though, that you'd find that usually the wrongful acts are not because of the religion, but because of a person or group of people who are acting in spite of their beliefs, rather than in the name of them. This is as true for suicide bombers today as it was for the Holy Crusades in medieval times. There are things that, as a scientific mind, I have a hard time reconciling: evolution, expanse of the universe, other lifeforms, age of earth, etc. But there are principles in Christianity to live by that I hold as truths: compassion, mercy, generosity, peace, human rights, preservation of dignity, respect of others beliefs (which doesn't mean agreeing with them). My wife and I have made it through some incredibly hard times with the help of people in our church community, with things that even our families didn't or couldn't help with. And then, I've friends who aren't "spiritual" but have made it through some insanely hard times themselves. For that reason, I don't mock or criticize any man or woman for what they say they believe in, and I hope, in return, that I'll be judged by my actions and not by what others think I place my faith in.
TheyCallMeMrJames wrote:
But there are principles in Christianity to live by that I hold as truths: compassion, mercy, generosity, peace, human rights, preservation of dignity, respect of others beliefs (which doesn't mean agreeing with them).
You will find that most atheists hold those truths as well. As for respect of others' beliefs, atheists seem "pushy" about it. Remember though, that we are not saying that gods don't exist. We're saying that we do not have any reasons to believe that they do. Since religious people make the claim that they/he/she/it do exist, and that their choice to have that belief affects the lives who don't (through politics, etc), atheists will call on it.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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Which view? The one where he claimed that anyone who isn't spiritual is an idiot?
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
d@nish wrote:
Those who don't know who is Harold, get the hell out
Interesting, I didn't know I was a celebrity :) Anyway, in the latest (AFAIK) official religion polls in the Netherlands, 34% answered they believed in a God, 37% believed in some sort of spirit or a life force but not a god, and (almost) the rest believed in neither. I'm not sure what it means in this context, but maybe you can use it to prove a point or something..
harold aptroot wrote:
Interesting, I didn't know I was a celebrity
No. You aren't. It is just that I see your posts here more than any other forum.
harold aptroot wrote:
maybe you can use it to prove a point or something
I don't want to prove anything. When it comes to religion, it is ones own belief. You cannot and should not judge it, IMO.
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No. One in which he said religion is not about worshiping some God but about spirituality (or something similar).
So right BEFORE he called all of us non-religious people idiots. Got it.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
TheyCallMeMrJames wrote:
But there are principles in Christianity to live by that I hold as truths: compassion, mercy, generosity, peace, human rights, preservation of dignity, respect of others beliefs (which doesn't mean agreeing with them).
You will find that most atheists hold those truths as well. As for respect of others' beliefs, atheists seem "pushy" about it. Remember though, that we are not saying that gods don't exist. We're saying that we do not have any reasons to believe that they do. Since religious people make the claim that they/he/she/it do exist, and that their choice to have that belief affects the lives who don't (through politics, etc), atheists will call on it.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
You will find that most atheists hold those truths as well.
Very true. They're easily summed up by the well-known "Golden Rule[^]" Do unto others as you would have them do unto you
(By the way, that particular phrasing comes from the Bible, but the concept is MUCH older)Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
You will find that most atheists hold those truths as well.
Very true. They're easily summed up by the well-known "Golden Rule[^]" Do unto others as you would have them do unto you
(By the way, that particular phrasing comes from the Bible, but the concept is MUCH older)Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)It has even been suggested that the Golden Rule has played a major part in evolution. Richard Dawkins (as well as many other scientists) have reasoned that the Golden Rule may be the best approach to survival, thus making it a rule for survival, and not a rule for morality.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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TheyCallMeMrJames wrote:
But there are principles in Christianity to live by that I hold as truths: compassion, mercy, generosity, peace, human rights, preservation of dignity, respect of others beliefs (which doesn't mean agreeing with them).
You will find that most atheists hold those truths as well. As for respect of others' beliefs, atheists seem "pushy" about it. Remember though, that we are not saying that gods don't exist. We're saying that we do not have any reasons to believe that they do. Since religious people make the claim that they/he/she/it do exist, and that their choice to have that belief affects the lives who don't (through politics, etc), atheists will call on it.
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
and that their choice to have that belief affects the lives who don't (through politics, etc)
I am about as opposed to religion in politics as they come and favor a system with as much a separation from state and religion as possible. To that end, I would likely agree with the atheist crew on most of the issues around politics and religion.
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote:
and that their choice to have that belief affects the lives who don't (through politics, etc)
I am about as opposed to religion in politics as they come and favor a system with as much a separation from state and religion as possible. To that end, I would likely agree with the atheist crew on most of the issues around politics and religion.
Cool! :)
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
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Cool! :)
-- Kein Mitleid Für Die Mehrheit
...I should add, though, that my beliefs affect a lot of people. Following the "golden rule" as mentioned above means taking care of folks in need. It feels great living that out (regardless of your beliefs).
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So right BEFORE he called all of us non-religious people idiots. Got it.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)I called you an idiot because you are an idiot. A Madison Avenue neo-trendy idiot who thinks highly of obama and worships the fed.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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harold aptroot wrote:
Interesting, I didn't know I was a celebrity
No. You aren't. It is just that I see your posts here more than any other forum.
harold aptroot wrote:
maybe you can use it to prove a point or something
I don't want to prove anything. When it comes to religion, it is ones own belief. You cannot and should not judge it, IMO.
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I called you an idiot because you are an idiot. A Madison Avenue neo-trendy idiot who thinks highly of obama and worships the fed.
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
Fail... My OLD job was on Madison Avenue... Now I'm on Fifth Avenue. If you're going to mindlessly insult someone, at least get the details right. :laugh:
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
...I should add, though, that my beliefs affect a lot of people. Following the "golden rule" as mentioned above means taking care of folks in need. It feels great living that out (regardless of your beliefs).
Correction - it means that to you. How about a more realistic Platinum Rule that will still appear acceptable:
Do unto others as you expect them to do unto you.
Sounds fair to me - and therefore I will not be helping anyone. Because, realistically, they wouldn't help me either. Pro: - Socially acceptable unless carried to the extreme - Less effort, same gain - ???? - Profit!!! Con: - Nothing Win. It feels great living that out, you can just lay back and relax.
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Correction - it means that to you. How about a more realistic Platinum Rule that will still appear acceptable:
Do unto others as you expect them to do unto you.
Sounds fair to me - and therefore I will not be helping anyone. Because, realistically, they wouldn't help me either. Pro: - Socially acceptable unless carried to the extreme - Less effort, same gain - ???? - Profit!!! Con: - Nothing Win. It feels great living that out, you can just lay back and relax.
harold aptroot wrote:
I will not be helping anyone. Because, realistically, they wouldn't help me either
Hard to argue with that logic! :doh: My wife and I have no expectation of return on investment when we help out our elderly neighbours (which we have on both sides). I mow their lawns in the summer and shovel their walks through the winter. We prepare food for folks who have newborns, lose a family member or are sick and can't work. I help out at the community centre and coach kids at skating and soccer. We volunteer over 200 hours a year. If someone else chooses to live that way and I am someday a beneficiary, then that would be great, but I certainly don't expect it. Pro: - lots of folks are treated to some cheer, get a hand when they need it - I've gotten to know folks on my street - people with family losses can cross 'meal prep' off their list of things to worry about - no debts are created - kids are encouraged to do more positive things in the community - no one gets hurt - my neighbors aren't burdened with work they can't handle - there is generally less crime in neighborhoods where neighbors know each other Cons: - none Looks like a win here too. There's nothing stressful about doing the things above and I quite enjoy the time I spend with others in my community, again, regardless of their beliefs. I wouldn't trade coaching kids or digging out my neighbors' sidewalk (which always ends in great conversation) for a moment on the laz-y-boy. It's not my thing, and I don't have a problem with it being yours. (just let me know your address so I don't clean your walk! ;) )
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harold aptroot wrote:
I will not be helping anyone. Because, realistically, they wouldn't help me either
Hard to argue with that logic! :doh: My wife and I have no expectation of return on investment when we help out our elderly neighbours (which we have on both sides). I mow their lawns in the summer and shovel their walks through the winter. We prepare food for folks who have newborns, lose a family member or are sick and can't work. I help out at the community centre and coach kids at skating and soccer. We volunteer over 200 hours a year. If someone else chooses to live that way and I am someday a beneficiary, then that would be great, but I certainly don't expect it. Pro: - lots of folks are treated to some cheer, get a hand when they need it - I've gotten to know folks on my street - people with family losses can cross 'meal prep' off their list of things to worry about - no debts are created - kids are encouraged to do more positive things in the community - no one gets hurt - my neighbors aren't burdened with work they can't handle - there is generally less crime in neighborhoods where neighbors know each other Cons: - none Looks like a win here too. There's nothing stressful about doing the things above and I quite enjoy the time I spend with others in my community, again, regardless of their beliefs. I wouldn't trade coaching kids or digging out my neighbors' sidewalk (which always ends in great conversation) for a moment on the laz-y-boy. It's not my thing, and I don't have a problem with it being yours. (just let me know your address so I don't clean your walk! ;) )
I see, well if you enjoy doing those things then that's quite a different reason, and I can see why you would do it then, but:
TheyCallMeMrJames wrote:
Pro: - lots of folks are treated to some cheer, get a hand when they need it [not a benefit] - I've gotten to know folks on my street [dubious benefit, but if that's what you wanted..] - people with family losses can cross 'meal prep' off their list of things to worry about [not my problem] - no debts are created [don't accept help, works too] - kids are encouraged to do more positive things in the community [dubious benefit] - no one gets hurt [meh] - my neighbors aren't burdened with work they can't handle [not my problem] - there is generally less crime in neighborhoods where neighbors know each other [they invented police for that] Cons: - none it costs some of your valuable time that you could spend doing something that really benefits you, such as making money
Question for Josh Gray, if he's reading this: would you say this is an accurate depiction of the Dutch mentality?
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I see, well if you enjoy doing those things then that's quite a different reason, and I can see why you would do it then, but:
TheyCallMeMrJames wrote:
Pro: - lots of folks are treated to some cheer, get a hand when they need it [not a benefit] - I've gotten to know folks on my street [dubious benefit, but if that's what you wanted..] - people with family losses can cross 'meal prep' off their list of things to worry about [not my problem] - no debts are created [don't accept help, works too] - kids are encouraged to do more positive things in the community [dubious benefit] - no one gets hurt [meh] - my neighbors aren't burdened with work they can't handle [not my problem] - there is generally less crime in neighborhoods where neighbors know each other [they invented police for that] Cons: - none it costs some of your valuable time that you could spend doing something that really benefits you, such as making money
Question for Josh Gray, if he's reading this: would you say this is an accurate depiction of the Dutch mentality?
harold aptroot wrote:
it costs some of your valuable time that you could spend doing something that really benefits you, such as making money
We'll have to agree to disagree. We're operating on different sets of motivation.
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harold aptroot wrote:
it costs some of your valuable time that you could spend doing something that really benefits you, such as making money
We'll have to agree to disagree. We're operating on different sets of motivation.
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harold aptroot wrote:
Interesting, I didn't know I was a celebrity
No. You aren't. It is just that I see your posts here more than any other forum.
harold aptroot wrote:
maybe you can use it to prove a point or something
I don't want to prove anything. When it comes to religion, it is ones own belief. You cannot and should not judge it, IMO.
You know what I just thought of...
d@nish wrote:
You cannot and should not judge it
Ok, I'll try: Religion is stupid. There, I judged it. So it was possible after all :) Whether you should, well, should you judge whether you should or should not judge religion?