The causes of government incompetence
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After working with or as a contractor for several governmental institutions I've found there to be a mix of mediocre workers, bad workers, and hard workers. Mostly mediocre and a few very bad ones or the ones completely in over their head. I've found that it is nearly impossible to get rid of someone as well. This situation is part of the cause, I think. There is also a practice of hiring former military personnel. These people get special treatment because of that service. This can put people who aren't the best into positions in government who aren't as good as someone who's never served. This is something that I've seen a lot as well.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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After working with or as a contractor for several governmental institutions I've found there to be a mix of mediocre workers, bad workers, and hard workers. Mostly mediocre and a few very bad ones or the ones completely in over their head. I've found that it is nearly impossible to get rid of someone as well. This situation is part of the cause, I think. There is also a practice of hiring former military personnel. These people get special treatment because of that service. This can put people who aren't the best into positions in government who aren't as good as someone who's never served. This is something that I've seen a lot as well.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
wolfbinary wrote:
I've found that it is nearly impossible to get rid of someone as well.
That's the problem right there. Once someone has been in their job past the probation period, they can't be fired unless they actually DO something to be fired (Steal things, shoot up the office, etc). You can't fire someone for being a useless waste of space... You can only transfer them, if you can find another department willing to take them. Plus, since government jobs generally pay less than the equivalent private sector jobs, well, you get the idea.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
wolfbinary wrote:
I've found that it is nearly impossible to get rid of someone as well.
That's the problem right there. Once someone has been in their job past the probation period, they can't be fired unless they actually DO something to be fired (Steal things, shoot up the office, etc). You can't fire someone for being a useless waste of space... You can only transfer them, if you can find another department willing to take them. Plus, since government jobs generally pay less than the equivalent private sector jobs, well, you get the idea.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
they can't be fired unless they actually DO something to be fired (Steal things, shoot up the office, etc).
Not doing their job should qualify, but apparently it doesn't for most of them. I also think that qualified talented people are driven out because of these issues.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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After working with or as a contractor for several governmental institutions I've found there to be a mix of mediocre workers, bad workers, and hard workers. Mostly mediocre and a few very bad ones or the ones completely in over their head. I've found that it is nearly impossible to get rid of someone as well. This situation is part of the cause, I think. There is also a practice of hiring former military personnel. These people get special treatment because of that service. This can put people who aren't the best into positions in government who aren't as good as someone who's never served. This is something that I've seen a lot as well.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
That hasn't been my experience. I've worked in both the public (county) and private. And the type of workers in both is quite similar. I suspect that you are correct that it much easier to fire people in the private sector (with or without cause). I don't have any one cause that might explain government incompetence - though I don't know what you might mean by that. Government does many things quite well, and private enterprise sure has unlimited examples of incompetence. Each has it's place. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this.
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That hasn't been my experience. I've worked in both the public (county) and private. And the type of workers in both is quite similar. I suspect that you are correct that it much easier to fire people in the private sector (with or without cause). I don't have any one cause that might explain government incompetence - though I don't know what you might mean by that. Government does many things quite well, and private enterprise sure has unlimited examples of incompetence. Each has it's place. Perhaps I'm reading too much into this.
Carbon12 wrote:
I don't have any one cause that might explain government incompetence
I wasn't trying to drive a steak in the heart of government workers or compare the two to each other, just that my experience has been very one or the other and not much in the middle. The government does do a pretty good job at a number of things, but when it comes to getting rid of obstructionists they have a lot more to do to get rid of them.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
they can't be fired unless they actually DO something to be fired (Steal things, shoot up the office, etc).
Not doing their job should qualify, but apparently it doesn't for most of them. I also think that qualified talented people are driven out because of these issues.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
Well, if they sat around doing nothing and refused to work, maybe that would qualify... But being totally incompetent isn't justification for getting canned in the civil service world.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Carbon12 wrote:
I don't have any one cause that might explain government incompetence
I wasn't trying to drive a steak in the heart of government workers or compare the two to each other, just that my experience has been very one or the other and not much in the middle. The government does do a pretty good job at a number of things, but when it comes to getting rid of obstructionists they have a lot more to do to get rid of them.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
wolfbinary wrote:
I wasn't trying to drive a steak in the heart of government workers or compare the two to each other
I thought I might be reading too much into what you said.
wolfbinary wrote:
but when it comes to getting rid of obstructionists they have a lot more to do to get rid of them.
No doubt that that is true. But the ability to fire anybody anytime is not an unalloyed good.
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Well, if they sat around doing nothing and refused to work, maybe that would qualify... But being totally incompetent isn't justification for getting canned in the civil service world.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)I guess "Heck of a job Brownie" guy is proof of that.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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wolfbinary wrote:
I wasn't trying to drive a steak in the heart of government workers or compare the two to each other
I thought I might be reading too much into what you said.
wolfbinary wrote:
but when it comes to getting rid of obstructionists they have a lot more to do to get rid of them.
No doubt that that is true. But the ability to fire anybody anytime is not an unalloyed good.
Carbon12 wrote:
No doubt that that is true. But the ability to fire anybody anytime is not an unalloyed good.
True. I've got a guy right now who won't share the password to the agency's firewall with anyone and has told his boss that he won't give another guy a switch because it won't help diagnose a network drop connection issue. He's been basically telling everyone that there's no problem when everyone is getting disconnected from the network from time to time and others very often to the point of it making their jobs impossible. That is malfeasance that should be fired. He now has until Friday to figure it out or else we're moving to the switch as a diagnostic tool. I have a feeling that could get delayed as well.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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Carbon12 wrote:
No doubt that that is true. But the ability to fire anybody anytime is not an unalloyed good.
True. I've got a guy right now who won't share the password to the agency's firewall with anyone and has told his boss that he won't give another guy a switch because it won't help diagnose a network drop connection issue. He's been basically telling everyone that there's no problem when everyone is getting disconnected from the network from time to time and others very often to the point of it making their jobs impossible. That is malfeasance that should be fired. He now has until Friday to figure it out or else we're moving to the switch as a diagnostic tool. I have a feeling that could get delayed as well.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
And I have a brother who is quite good at his (public sector)job, but his boss is trying to fire him. But he is using the tools available to him (God bless the Unions) to protect his job. Those same tools will, of course, be available to someone who 'deserves' to be fired to protect their job as well.
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And I have a brother who is quite good at his (public sector)job, but his boss is trying to fire him. But he is using the tools available to him (God bless the Unions) to protect his job. Those same tools will, of course, be available to someone who 'deserves' to be fired to protect their job as well.
Sounds like his boss is the incompetent one. I forgot to add that this is the kind of thing that drives people out of public service who are good at what they do.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
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Sounds like his boss is the incompetent one. I forgot to add that this is the kind of thing that drives people out of public service who are good at what they do.
That's called seagull management (or sometimes pigeon management)... Fly in, flap your arms and squawk a lot, crap all over everything and fly out again... by _Damian S_
No, he has an agenda and the power to implement it. Luckily my brother has tools with which to fight back.
wolfbinary wrote:
I forgot to add that this is the kind of thing that drives people out of public service who are good at what they do.
By the same token these protections from swift (and often arbitrary) terminations are a benefit of public sector employment that is often unavailable in the private sector - unless you are lucky enough to have a union to protect your rights. "One man's fish is another man's poisson."
modified on Thursday, August 26, 2010 1:53 PM
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wolfbinary wrote:
I've found that it is nearly impossible to get rid of someone as well.
That's the problem right there. Once someone has been in their job past the probation period, they can't be fired unless they actually DO something to be fired (Steal things, shoot up the office, etc). You can't fire someone for being a useless waste of space... You can only transfer them, if you can find another department willing to take them. Plus, since government jobs generally pay less than the equivalent private sector jobs, well, you get the idea.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)Ian Shlasko wrote:
Plus, since government jobs generally pay less than the equivalent private sector jobs
On average government workers get paid more than their equivalent private sector jobs. Smack![^]
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Plus, since government jobs generally pay less than the equivalent private sector jobs
On average government workers get paid more than their equivalent private sector jobs. Smack![^]
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
Pity, that there are no governmental pizza boys, eh? You could make a "fortune".
"I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." (DNA)
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Ian Shlasko wrote:
Plus, since government jobs generally pay less than the equivalent private sector jobs
On average government workers get paid more than their equivalent private sector jobs. Smack![^]
Invisible Empire: A New World Order Defined (High Quality 2:14:01)[^] Watch the Fall of the Republic (High Quality 2:24:19)[^] The Truthbox[^]
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Um, typically if you're going to say that with a link, you link to something supporting your claim. Just saying.
Yeah, I wasn't going to bother responding. He'll either come up with a home-spun InfoWars article, or he'll oversimplify it and "prove" his point by showing that a government clerk makes more than a pizza delivery boy.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Um, typically if you're going to say that with a link, you link to something supporting your claim. Just saying.
Once again a severe case of "because Captain Brain Fart says so". His word's enough.
"I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by." (DNA)
