More about God....
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Over the past day, much discussion has ensued about Islam, and differing religions. The common theme often seems to be 'why can't religious people all just agree' ? Someone posted something like 'Catholics and Protestants disagree on 1% of the Bible, so why do they focus on that ?' Well, the Irish troubles have religion as a focus, but really started because the English became Protestant so that a king could remarry, the Irish remained Catholic, and the Protestants in the fight represent English settlers sent in to dispossess the Irish. So it's really territorial, although with the passage of time it does not seem to be valid on that front. Anyhow, my point is this. If there is indeed a God at ALL, it seems to me that He would have an opinion. Surely anyone who suggests that Protestants should both not worship Mary, and accept the religion of those who do, seem to me to be promoting athiesm. The only level on which we are free to invent whatever God suits us, is the level at which we say He does not exist and therefore has no say. I am strongly in favour of freedom of religion, and strongly against any form of bigotry, but while I would never attack anyone for their beliefs, I'd also feel that unless I was willing to tell them politely that I disagree, I am in fact saying I have no opinion at all, or that I believe religion is just a fairy tale, so it doesn't matter which story you prefer. So long as religion is just a vehicle for people to be nice to each other, that may be true, but if there is a God, then it just isn't the case. Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said...... Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: Anyhow, my point is this. If there is indeed a God at ALL, it seems to me that He would have an opinion. Surely anyone who suggests that Protestants should both not worship Mary, and accept the religion of those who do, seem to me to be promoting athiesm. The only level on which we are free to invent whatever God suits us, is the level at which we say He does not exist and therefore has no say. I agree completely, this is the point I was trying to get across in the thread you mentioned. I didn't understand how people could customise their religion and feel content with it. I do not full understand what the differences are, but I'll try to learn over the next few days. I do not wish to sound like I am trying to kiss your behind (to put it lightly), but I also agree with your statement, "The only level on which we are free to invent whatever God suits us, is the level at which we say He does not exist and therefore has no say.". Am I correct in saying that these people are effectively saying that Jesus was wrong? Or his followers interpreted his words incorrectly? Christian Graus wrote: I am strongly in favour of freedom of religion, and strongly against any form of bigotry, but while I would never attack anyone for their beliefs, I'd also feel that unless I was willing to tell them politely that I disagree, I am in fact saying I have no opinion at all, or that I believe religion is just a fairy tale, so it doesn't matter which story you prefer. So long as religion is just a vehicle for people to be nice to each other, that may be true, but if there is a God, then it just isn't the case. You should never be afraid to give your own opinions if you disagree with somebody. If it leads into an argument that clearly has no sign of ending through ignorance on the other person's part, just end it politely. But in the case of religious views, it isn't that simple. You wouldn't like anybody saying that your religion was twaddle, and vice versa. Use my technique for winning an argument, accept the fact that the other person is wrong, and move on. :)
Simon Walton
Sonork: 10024 -
David Stone wrote: "And which religion is good for God?" Exactly. Heaven will not be fully multi denominational. Maybe northern baptists will be accepted and southern's not accepted. Even denominations may be divided by parishes depending on sermons recieved. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Now Colin, you know that is not what I am saying. I don't believe there will be any division by denomination, division will occur on an individual basis. Every man will stand before God alone. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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That fact is noone really knows the truth about God. Well, at least thats what I believe. Based on that, I am willing to listen to anyones interpretation and thoughts on the matter without feeling I need to impose my set of beliefs. If the conversation warrants, I speak my version of the cosmos, otherwise its all pretty much a moot point, until a verifiable All-Being shows up and tells me what's what. BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
brianwelsch wrote: That fact is noone really knows the truth about God. If that is true, then there is no God, or He is hiding from us. brianwelsch wrote: without feeling I need to impose my set of beliefs. That's not what I am saying. I work with people with whom I disagree about God and I am happy to count them as friends. But that does not mean when they bring up God that I am keen to agree with them. Surely you have friends with whom you disagree on some things ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Christian Graus wrote: Anyhow, my point is this. If there is indeed a God at ALL, it seems to me that He would have an opinion. Surely anyone who suggests that Protestants should both not worship Mary, and accept the religion of those who do, seem to me to be promoting athiesm. The only level on which we are free to invent whatever God suits us, is the level at which we say He does not exist and therefore has no say. I agree completely, this is the point I was trying to get across in the thread you mentioned. I didn't understand how people could customise their religion and feel content with it. I do not full understand what the differences are, but I'll try to learn over the next few days. I do not wish to sound like I am trying to kiss your behind (to put it lightly), but I also agree with your statement, "The only level on which we are free to invent whatever God suits us, is the level at which we say He does not exist and therefore has no say.". Am I correct in saying that these people are effectively saying that Jesus was wrong? Or his followers interpreted his words incorrectly? Christian Graus wrote: I am strongly in favour of freedom of religion, and strongly against any form of bigotry, but while I would never attack anyone for their beliefs, I'd also feel that unless I was willing to tell them politely that I disagree, I am in fact saying I have no opinion at all, or that I believe religion is just a fairy tale, so it doesn't matter which story you prefer. So long as religion is just a vehicle for people to be nice to each other, that may be true, but if there is a God, then it just isn't the case. You should never be afraid to give your own opinions if you disagree with somebody. If it leads into an argument that clearly has no sign of ending through ignorance on the other person's part, just end it politely. But in the case of religious views, it isn't that simple. You wouldn't like anybody saying that your religion was twaddle, and vice versa. Use my technique for winning an argument, accept the fact that the other person is wrong, and move on. :)
Simon Walton
Sonork: 10024Simon Walton wrote: Am I correct in saying that these people are effectively saying that Jesus was wrong? Or his followers interpreted his words incorrectly? It's usual that they basically say that people who interpret his words differently have a valid point of view, and that the fact that they believe Jesus said different things should not stop them from uniting in disunity. Simon Walton wrote: You wouldn't like anybody saying that your religion was twaddle, and vice versa. I'm quite happy for people to tell me that, and happy to explain why I disagree. Simon Walton wrote: Use my technique for winning an argument, accept the fact that the other person is wrong, and move on. This is the point of breakdown, too many people end the argument before it starts by saying 'lets not discuss the bits we disagree on and pretend we are in unity'. Arguing for it's own sake is futile but pretending that differences don't exist or don't matter is to deny what you claim to believe. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Over the past day, much discussion has ensued about Islam, and differing religions. The common theme often seems to be 'why can't religious people all just agree' ? Someone posted something like 'Catholics and Protestants disagree on 1% of the Bible, so why do they focus on that ?' Well, the Irish troubles have religion as a focus, but really started because the English became Protestant so that a king could remarry, the Irish remained Catholic, and the Protestants in the fight represent English settlers sent in to dispossess the Irish. So it's really territorial, although with the passage of time it does not seem to be valid on that front. Anyhow, my point is this. If there is indeed a God at ALL, it seems to me that He would have an opinion. Surely anyone who suggests that Protestants should both not worship Mary, and accept the religion of those who do, seem to me to be promoting athiesm. The only level on which we are free to invent whatever God suits us, is the level at which we say He does not exist and therefore has no say. I am strongly in favour of freedom of religion, and strongly against any form of bigotry, but while I would never attack anyone for their beliefs, I'd also feel that unless I was willing to tell them politely that I disagree, I am in fact saying I have no opinion at all, or that I believe religion is just a fairy tale, so it doesn't matter which story you prefer. So long as religion is just a vehicle for people to be nice to each other, that may be true, but if there is a God, then it just isn't the case. Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said...... Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: Surely anyone who suggests that Protestants should both not worship Mary, and accept the religion of those who do, seem to me to be promoting athiesm. Agreed there are no gray points. I'm eiter right and you are wrong, or vice versa. Although I know the first is correct. When mainstream science proves God's presence to the masses it will still need to investigate what God's plan is. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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Christian Graus wrote: Surely anyone who suggests that Protestants should both not worship Mary, and accept the religion of those who do, seem to me to be promoting athiesm. Agreed there are no gray points. I'm eiter right and you are wrong, or vice versa. Although I know the first is correct. When mainstream science proves God's presence to the masses it will still need to investigate what God's plan is. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Colin Davies wrote: Although I know the first is correct. But of course :-) Colin Davies wrote: When mainstream science proves God's presence to the masses it will still need to investigate what God's plan is. Also true. I doubt it will happen though, mainstream science by and large interprets everything it discovers from the vantage point of there being no God, or at least no proof of God. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Colin Davies wrote: Although I know the first is correct. But of course :-) Colin Davies wrote: When mainstream science proves God's presence to the masses it will still need to investigate what God's plan is. Also true. I doubt it will happen though, mainstream science by and large interprets everything it discovers from the vantage point of there being no God, or at least no proof of God. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
It's interesting that so many Physists and Cosmologists have religous leanings. But on the job, their work suggests otherwise. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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YES !!! That is exactly what I am saying. My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you is athiesm, it presumes there is no God to present, or even hold, an opinion on the matter. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you is athiesm that's not even close to true. "A = good for you, B = good for me" is simply a way of politely agreeing to drop the subject, since both sides know they'll never come to an agreement or cause the other person to 'switch'. -c
A conclusion is simply the place where someone got tired of thinking.
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YES !!! That is exactly what I am saying. My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you is athiesm, it presumes there is no God to present, or even hold, an opinion on the matter. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
:sticks head of shell, waiting to have it bitten off: Christian Graus wrote: it presumes there is no God to present, or even hold, an opinion on the matter. Or is it that your belief makes your god* real (and thus letting him have an opinion), and my belief makes my god real (and he has his opinion). So, your god has an opinion, and you believe in him, and my god has an opinion, and I believe in him. And on another tactic: Christian Graus wrote: My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you is athiesm How is this atheism? Atheism is the belief that there is no God (or gods). Me saying that "you have your opinion, and I'll have mine" is not the same as me saying "there is no God," right? You can make statements that a single god can appear in different guises to different people. So "your" God could really be the same as "my" god. * i use "God" to refer to the Christian one, and "god" to refer to any "hhigher being". So God would be a god, but Shiva would also be a god. In general religious discussions (such as this) don't accomplish much (IMHO). At the end of the day, we're both going to walk away believing pretty much the same thing we believed when this thread started. It's not like you're going to say something and suddenly I'm going to realize what I fool I've been my whole life, and rush off to a church or something. (ok, that sounded patronizing, I'm sorry). :in an attempt to "get back in Christian's good graces" after my comments: "STL rules!" ;P That's why I ramble so much. If you're short and quotable, there's a much greater danger of ending up in a sig. [Christopher Duncan on how to prevent yourself from ending up in a sig]
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YES !!! That is exactly what I am saying. My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you is athiesm, it presumes there is no God to present, or even hold, an opinion on the matter. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: YES !!! That is exactly what I am saying Wow. I don't think anyone has agreed with me that strongly before. :cool:
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
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Christian Graus wrote: My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you is athiesm that's not even close to true. "A = good for you, B = good for me" is simply a way of politely agreeing to drop the subject, since both sides know they'll never come to an agreement or cause the other person to 'switch'. -c
A conclusion is simply the place where someone got tired of thinking.
Yeah...I've seen that before. I just usually say, "Alright. Let's just agree that we disagree on religion and leave it at that."
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
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:sticks head of shell, waiting to have it bitten off: Christian Graus wrote: it presumes there is no God to present, or even hold, an opinion on the matter. Or is it that your belief makes your god* real (and thus letting him have an opinion), and my belief makes my god real (and he has his opinion). So, your god has an opinion, and you believe in him, and my god has an opinion, and I believe in him. And on another tactic: Christian Graus wrote: My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you is athiesm How is this atheism? Atheism is the belief that there is no God (or gods). Me saying that "you have your opinion, and I'll have mine" is not the same as me saying "there is no God," right? You can make statements that a single god can appear in different guises to different people. So "your" God could really be the same as "my" god. * i use "God" to refer to the Christian one, and "god" to refer to any "hhigher being". So God would be a god, but Shiva would also be a god. In general religious discussions (such as this) don't accomplish much (IMHO). At the end of the day, we're both going to walk away believing pretty much the same thing we believed when this thread started. It's not like you're going to say something and suddenly I'm going to realize what I fool I've been my whole life, and rush off to a church or something. (ok, that sounded patronizing, I'm sorry). :in an attempt to "get back in Christian's good graces" after my comments: "STL rules!" ;P That's why I ramble so much. If you're short and quotable, there's a much greater danger of ending up in a sig. [Christopher Duncan on how to prevent yourself from ending up in a sig]
Atlantys wrote: So, your god has an opinion, and you believe in him, and my god has an opinion, and I believe in him. Well, that's fine. I said as much - I support freedom of religion. But what I am saying is that if your God's opinion differs from my God's opinion, then we cannot claim to have religious unity between us. Atlantys wrote: How is this atheism? Atheism is the belief that there is no God (or gods). Me saying that "you have your opinion, and I'll have mine" is not the same as me saying "there is no God," right? If you say that both points of view are valid, then you say the only thing that matters is having your own idea about God, therefore God exists only as an idea in peoples head, therefore He is not real beyond that. Atlantys wrote: At the end of the day, we're both going to walk away believing pretty much the same thing we believed when this thread started. I've not even stated what I believe about God, because that's not my point here. It's that two divergent views cannot be made compatible by watering them down and trying not to mention anything that is a point of contention. Atlantys wrote: It's not like you're going to say something and suddenly I'm going to realize what I fool I've been my whole life, and rush off to a church or something. (ok, that sounded patronizing, I'm sorry). Again, I was not trying to. Atlantys wrote: :in an attempt to "get back in Christian's good graces" after my comments: "STL rules!" You appear to have missed my point here, but I was not upset or offended. Of course, I like you even better after saying that though..... Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Christian Graus wrote: My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you is athiesm that's not even close to true. "A = good for you, B = good for me" is simply a way of politely agreeing to drop the subject, since both sides know they'll never come to an agreement or cause the other person to 'switch'. -c
A conclusion is simply the place where someone got tired of thinking.
Yes, if on that basis we remained friends at work, and did not discuss it again. No, if we then went on to form a council of churches to claim unity and try to focus on what little we have in common ( we believe in God ) and try to ignore at all costs any point of contention ( as in any point where God actually says anything or demands any sort of response from us. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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David Stone wrote: "And which religion is good for God?" Exactly. Heaven will not be fully multi denominational. Maybe northern baptists will be accepted and southern's not accepted. Even denominations may be divided by parishes depending on sermons recieved. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
That's not what I said. I believe that everyone will have to give an account before God...by themselves. I'm just saying that, assuming everyone in a denomination/religion truly subscribes to it's belief set, then you can deal with a religion as a whole, not by it's constituents. Having said that, I will clarify what I meant earlier. I'm saying that: If God exists And Religion is based on God Then God must decide what is the "true" religion. Hence, Which religion is right for God is a valid statement. Because that would be the true religion. Saying "Your religion is right for you..." is relativism, which defies an absolute truth.
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
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YES !!! That is exactly what I am saying. My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you is athiesm, it presumes there is no God to present, or even hold, an opinion on the matter. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you is athiesm Christian, I think the term you are really searching for is "Relativism". Because that means that there is no absolute truth and hence, absolute God.
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
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It's interesting that so many Physists and Cosmologists have religous leanings. But on the job, their work suggests otherwise. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Colin Davies wrote: It's interesting that so many Physists and Cosmologists have religous leanings. (From a website) "Scientists are anchored in the U. S. mainstream." It says that half participate in religious activities regularly. Looking at the poll is that 43% of Ph.D. scientists are in church on a typical Sunday. In the American public, 44% are in church on a typical Sunday (Poll of the professional society Sigma Zi to which Three thousand three hundred responded) I use this often as an argument for the existance of God. If people as intelligent as this can believe in a God, then surely you cannot use the notion that they are in some way mentally defective. Unfortunately, I have been brought up by people around me with this image of religous people - people who are unwilling to accept the wonders of science. Know I understand that the ignorance of science is perhaps a better expression. Science can do lots of things, but one thing it'll never do is disprove the existance of God.
Simon Walton
Sonork: 10024P
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Over the past day, much discussion has ensued about Islam, and differing religions. The common theme often seems to be 'why can't religious people all just agree' ? Someone posted something like 'Catholics and Protestants disagree on 1% of the Bible, so why do they focus on that ?' Well, the Irish troubles have religion as a focus, but really started because the English became Protestant so that a king could remarry, the Irish remained Catholic, and the Protestants in the fight represent English settlers sent in to dispossess the Irish. So it's really territorial, although with the passage of time it does not seem to be valid on that front. Anyhow, my point is this. If there is indeed a God at ALL, it seems to me that He would have an opinion. Surely anyone who suggests that Protestants should both not worship Mary, and accept the religion of those who do, seem to me to be promoting athiesm. The only level on which we are free to invent whatever God suits us, is the level at which we say He does not exist and therefore has no say. I am strongly in favour of freedom of religion, and strongly against any form of bigotry, but while I would never attack anyone for their beliefs, I'd also feel that unless I was willing to tell them politely that I disagree, I am in fact saying I have no opinion at all, or that I believe religion is just a fairy tale, so it doesn't matter which story you prefer. So long as religion is just a vehicle for people to be nice to each other, that may be true, but if there is a God, then it just isn't the case. Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said...... Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: If there is indeed a God at ALL, it seems to me that He would have an opinion. Surely anyone who suggests that Protestants should both not worship Mary, and accept the religion of those who do, seem to me to be promoting athiesm. Exactly. And, not to trivialize this, but it doesn't start or end with religion either - if i think it's a bad idea to sell bodily fluids on the black market, and you don't, then either i think you are wrong or admit i don't really have an opinion at all. Which doesn't mean i have to kill you, but i *do* have to admit to one or the other, or be a hypocrite. Shog9 ------
Rather hammer futiley at the locked door than just sit and ignore it. Obviously finding a way to get through the locked door would be even better though. - Paul Watson, My Ignorance
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Christian Graus wrote: Anyhow, my point is this. If there is indeed a God at ALL, it seems to me that He would have an opinion. Surely anyone who suggests that Protestants should both not worship Mary, and accept the religion of those who do, seem to me to be promoting athiesm. The only level on which we are free to invent whatever God suits us, is the level at which we say He does not exist and therefore has no say. I agree completely, this is the point I was trying to get across in the thread you mentioned. I didn't understand how people could customise their religion and feel content with it. I do not full understand what the differences are, but I'll try to learn over the next few days. I do not wish to sound like I am trying to kiss your behind (to put it lightly), but I also agree with your statement, "The only level on which we are free to invent whatever God suits us, is the level at which we say He does not exist and therefore has no say.". Am I correct in saying that these people are effectively saying that Jesus was wrong? Or his followers interpreted his words incorrectly? Christian Graus wrote: I am strongly in favour of freedom of religion, and strongly against any form of bigotry, but while I would never attack anyone for their beliefs, I'd also feel that unless I was willing to tell them politely that I disagree, I am in fact saying I have no opinion at all, or that I believe religion is just a fairy tale, so it doesn't matter which story you prefer. So long as religion is just a vehicle for people to be nice to each other, that may be true, but if there is a God, then it just isn't the case. You should never be afraid to give your own opinions if you disagree with somebody. If it leads into an argument that clearly has no sign of ending through ignorance on the other person's part, just end it politely. But in the case of religious views, it isn't that simple. You wouldn't like anybody saying that your religion was twaddle, and vice versa. Use my technique for winning an argument, accept the fact that the other person is wrong, and move on. :)
Simon Walton
Sonork: 10024Simon Walton wrote: Am I correct in saying that these people are effectively saying that Jesus was wrong? Or his followers interpreted his words incorrectly? Yeah. You are correct. I find it surprising how many people say they are Christians(Catholic and Protestant) and yet they subscribe to the "All Roads" theory. "Everyone worships the same being". And yet clearly, Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the Father but by me." (John...8:16 I think...) They are, in effect, contradicting their own beliefs.
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
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Atlantys wrote: So, your god has an opinion, and you believe in him, and my god has an opinion, and I believe in him. Well, that's fine. I said as much - I support freedom of religion. But what I am saying is that if your God's opinion differs from my God's opinion, then we cannot claim to have religious unity between us. Atlantys wrote: How is this atheism? Atheism is the belief that there is no God (or gods). Me saying that "you have your opinion, and I'll have mine" is not the same as me saying "there is no God," right? If you say that both points of view are valid, then you say the only thing that matters is having your own idea about God, therefore God exists only as an idea in peoples head, therefore He is not real beyond that. Atlantys wrote: At the end of the day, we're both going to walk away believing pretty much the same thing we believed when this thread started. I've not even stated what I believe about God, because that's not my point here. It's that two divergent views cannot be made compatible by watering them down and trying not to mention anything that is a point of contention. Atlantys wrote: It's not like you're going to say something and suddenly I'm going to realize what I fool I've been my whole life, and rush off to a church or something. (ok, that sounded patronizing, I'm sorry). Again, I was not trying to. Atlantys wrote: :in an attempt to "get back in Christian's good graces" after my comments: "STL rules!" You appear to have missed my point here, but I was not upset or offended. Of course, I like you even better after saying that though..... Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: if your God's opinion differs from my God's opinion, then we cannot claim to have religious unity between us. Yes, and this is a major cause behind many wars and other Bad Things(tm), because people insist that their (and their god's) opinion is The Truth. Christian Graus wrote: If you say that both points of view are valid, then you say the only thing that matters is having your own idea about God, therefore God exists only as an idea in peoples head, therefore He is not real beyond that. So if I think God is blue, and you think He's red, and it turns out he's purple, what then? or am I missing your point (again?) :-D Christian Graus wrote: I've not even stated what I believe about God, because that's not my point here. It's that two divergent views cannot be made compatible by watering them down and trying not to mention anything that is a point of contention. Gotcha. Now that we've got the religious debate going on, we need to start up a debate on abortion, and then onto politics, and we'll have covered most of the "warning: these topics shouldn't be discussed at work around the water cooler" topics. :-D That's why I ramble so much. If you're short and quotable, there's a much greater danger of ending up in a sig. [Christopher Duncan on how to prevent yourself from ending up in a sig]
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Christian Graus wrote: My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you is athiesm Christian, I think the term you are really searching for is "Relativism". Because that means that there is no absolute truth and hence, absolute God.
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
Perhaps, but I believe the difference is largely semantic. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
