More about God....
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Christian Graus wrote: My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you is athiesm Christian, I think the term you are really searching for is "Relativism". Because that means that there is no absolute truth and hence, absolute God.
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
Perhaps, but I believe the difference is largely semantic. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Christian Graus wrote: if your God's opinion differs from my God's opinion, then we cannot claim to have religious unity between us. Yes, and this is a major cause behind many wars and other Bad Things(tm), because people insist that their (and their god's) opinion is The Truth. Christian Graus wrote: If you say that both points of view are valid, then you say the only thing that matters is having your own idea about God, therefore God exists only as an idea in peoples head, therefore He is not real beyond that. So if I think God is blue, and you think He's red, and it turns out he's purple, what then? or am I missing your point (again?) :-D Christian Graus wrote: I've not even stated what I believe about God, because that's not my point here. It's that two divergent views cannot be made compatible by watering them down and trying not to mention anything that is a point of contention. Gotcha. Now that we've got the religious debate going on, we need to start up a debate on abortion, and then onto politics, and we'll have covered most of the "warning: these topics shouldn't be discussed at work around the water cooler" topics. :-D That's why I ramble so much. If you're short and quotable, there's a much greater danger of ending up in a sig. [Christopher Duncan on how to prevent yourself from ending up in a sig]
Atlantys wrote: Yes, and this is a major cause behind many wars and other Bad Things(tm), because people insist that their (and their god's) opinion is The Truth. Not even close. The cause of many problems is that people presume it's their job to judge on God's behalf. Atlantys wrote: So if I think God is blue, and you think He's red, and it turns out he's purple, what then? We were both wrong. There is much to be said for discussion amongst people who disagree, that is different to 'maybe he's red, maybe he's blue, who cares'. The issues being ignores are usually a lot more important than your example. Atlantys wrote: Gotcha. I don't see why ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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It's interesting that so many Physists and Cosmologists have religous leanings. But on the job, their work suggests otherwise. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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Now Colin, you know that is not what I am saying. I don't believe there will be any division by denomination, division will occur on an individual basis. Every man will stand before God alone. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
I disagree, Its a sin to worship a false god. Unfortunatly to many people worry about going to hell. Lets face it some will go and others won't. Those that do go to hell will probably meet up with a lot of old friends anyhow, so it probably isn't that bad. Although Heaven obviously will be a lot nicer. I hope I'm not too lonely there. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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Christian Graus wrote: My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you is athiesm that's not even close to true. "A = good for you, B = good for me" is simply a way of politely agreeing to drop the subject, since both sides know they'll never come to an agreement or cause the other person to 'switch'. -c
A conclusion is simply the place where someone got tired of thinking.
Yes but if A has been told by God that he/she must correct B. Then A must continue to discuss it. It wouldn't be right to B, not to be given the opportunity by A to be converted. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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I disagree, Its a sin to worship a false god. Unfortunatly to many people worry about going to hell. Lets face it some will go and others won't. Those that do go to hell will probably meet up with a lot of old friends anyhow, so it probably isn't that bad. Although Heaven obviously will be a lot nicer. I hope I'm not too lonely there. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Colin Davies wrote: I disagree, Its a sin to worship a false god. I'm not so much suggesting that people from every denomination will get in, as being part of a denomination does not guarentee entry. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Yes but if A has been told by God that he/she must correct B. Then A must continue to discuss it. It wouldn't be right to B, not to be given the opportunity by A to be converted. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
i disagree. it is perfectly right, and highly desirable, for A to keep his/her nose out of B's business so that B can make up his/her mind about things. :cool: -c
A conclusion is simply the place where someone got tired of thinking.
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Colin Davies wrote: It's interesting that so many Physists and Cosmologists have religous leanings. (From a website) "Scientists are anchored in the U. S. mainstream." It says that half participate in religious activities regularly. Looking at the poll is that 43% of Ph.D. scientists are in church on a typical Sunday. In the American public, 44% are in church on a typical Sunday (Poll of the professional society Sigma Zi to which Three thousand three hundred responded) I use this often as an argument for the existance of God. If people as intelligent as this can believe in a God, then surely you cannot use the notion that they are in some way mentally defective. Unfortunately, I have been brought up by people around me with this image of religous people - people who are unwilling to accept the wonders of science. Know I understand that the ignorance of science is perhaps a better expression. Science can do lots of things, but one thing it'll never do is disprove the existance of God.
Simon Walton
Sonork: 10024P
Simon Walton wrote: It's interesting that so many Physists and Cosmologists have religous leanings. (From a website) "Scientists are anchored in the U. S. mainstream." It says that half participate in religious activities regularly. Looking at the poll is that 43% of Ph.D. scientists are in church on a typical Sunday. In the American public, 44% are in church on a typical Sunday (Poll of the professional society Sigma Zi to which Three thousand three hundred responded) I always find it funny when people pull this one up. And I question the veracity of their (the source not Simon) data. Not because I disbelieve the existence of God but, because I completed my Masters in Physics in ‘97 while most of my friends went on to get their Ph.D. I can honestly say that 90% of my peer group at the time was very "skeptical" about the existence of God. We had many heated debates at the local dive bars on the very topic. These generally ended with drunken insults and “Gravity Experiments” off the top of the science building of anything we could find that weighed more than 30lbs. The point being, at least to me, is that religious faith is a personal decision. And, something that someone should not feel need to justify. That is why I am always amused to see people trying so hard to convince other people. Damn, now my secret is out ….now every one will know I *shudder* studied physics. Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.
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brianwelsch wrote: until a verifiable All-Being shows up and tells me what's what. And then what do you do ? Do you do exactly what he has told you to do or not ? Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Colin Davies wrote: And then what do you do ? Do you do exactly what he has told you to do or not ? It's an impossible moment to predict, so I have no idea what I would do. I suppose try to sit down over a beer, and talk things over. You know try to get some answers.:-D BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
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brianwelsch wrote: That fact is noone really knows the truth about God. If that is true, then there is no God, or He is hiding from us. brianwelsch wrote: without feeling I need to impose my set of beliefs. That's not what I am saying. I work with people with whom I disagree about God and I am happy to count them as friends. But that does not mean when they bring up God that I am keen to agree with them. Surely you have friends with whom you disagree on some things ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: If that is true, then there is no God, or He is hiding from us. How does the thought that nobody knows the truth about God imply either one? Another option is that we don't understand, or he doesn't even care what we're up to anymore, if indeed he ever did. Christian Graus wrote: That's not what I am saying. I work with people with whom I disagree about God and I am happy to count them as friends. But that does not mean when they bring up God that I am keen to agree with them. Surely you have friends with whom you disagree on some things ? i think we are in agreement here. I have some very close friends, some of which friendships have started solely from religious discussion. We respectfully disagree quite often, and it does not stop us from discussing things. I was trying to say above that, my view is that no one view of God is the sole truth (I justify this from observing that all humans are flawed, and so it follows...), therefore I have to allow as much input as possible, and likewise will share my thoughts, but not preach them. This last isn't wholly logical, but it gets me by for now:) BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
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Colin Davies wrote: I disagree, Its a sin to worship a false god. I'm not so much suggesting that people from every denomination will get in, as being part of a denomination does not guarentee entry. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
Christian Graus wrote: I'm not so much suggesting that people from every denomination will get in, as being part of a denomination does not guarentee entry. Neither do I feel does belonging to a denomination imply denial. BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
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Christian Graus wrote: If that is true, then there is no God, or He is hiding from us. How does the thought that nobody knows the truth about God imply either one? Another option is that we don't understand, or he doesn't even care what we're up to anymore, if indeed he ever did. Christian Graus wrote: That's not what I am saying. I work with people with whom I disagree about God and I am happy to count them as friends. But that does not mean when they bring up God that I am keen to agree with them. Surely you have friends with whom you disagree on some things ? i think we are in agreement here. I have some very close friends, some of which friendships have started solely from religious discussion. We respectfully disagree quite often, and it does not stop us from discussing things. I was trying to say above that, my view is that no one view of God is the sole truth (I justify this from observing that all humans are flawed, and so it follows...), therefore I have to allow as much input as possible, and likewise will share my thoughts, but not preach them. This last isn't wholly logical, but it gets me by for now:) BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
brianwelsch wrote: Another option is that we don't understand, or he doesn't even care what we're up to anymore, if indeed he ever did. If we don't understand that's His fault - He made us. And the second option is no different to 'he's hiding from us', at least in terms of my intention. brianwelsch wrote: my view is that no one view of God is the sole truth (I justify this from observing that all humans are flawed, and so it follows...), therefore I have to allow as much input as possible, and likewise will share my thoughts, but not preach them. There is nothing wrong with being willing to consider other thoughts, the alternative is to hold a view which we don't trust enough to be willing to challenge. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Christian Graus wrote: I'm not so much suggesting that people from every denomination will get in, as being part of a denomination does not guarentee entry. Neither do I feel does belonging to a denomination imply denial. BW "I'm coming with you! I got you fired, it's the least I can do. Well, the least I could do is absolutely nothing, but I'll go you one better and come along!" - Homer J. Simpson
I'm confused - when did I suggest it did ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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Christian Graus wrote: If there is indeed a God at ALL, it seems to me that He would have an opinion. Surely anyone who suggests that Protestants should both not worship Mary, and accept the religion of those who do, seem to me to be promoting athiesm. Exactly. And, not to trivialize this, but it doesn't start or end with religion either - if i think it's a bad idea to sell bodily fluids on the black market, and you don't, then either i think you are wrong or admit i don't really have an opinion at all. Which doesn't mean i have to kill you, but i *do* have to admit to one or the other, or be a hypocrite. Shog9 ------
Rather hammer futiley at the locked door than just sit and ignore it. Obviously finding a way to get through the locked door would be even better though. - Paul Watson, My Ignorance
Shog9 wrote: if i think it's a bad idea to sell bodily fluids on the black market Shog, you never cease to amaze me... :-D :-D :-D Mike Mullikin :beer:
Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation. - David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
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Over the past day, much discussion has ensued about Islam, and differing religions. The common theme often seems to be 'why can't religious people all just agree' ? Someone posted something like 'Catholics and Protestants disagree on 1% of the Bible, so why do they focus on that ?' Well, the Irish troubles have religion as a focus, but really started because the English became Protestant so that a king could remarry, the Irish remained Catholic, and the Protestants in the fight represent English settlers sent in to dispossess the Irish. So it's really territorial, although with the passage of time it does not seem to be valid on that front. Anyhow, my point is this. If there is indeed a God at ALL, it seems to me that He would have an opinion. Surely anyone who suggests that Protestants should both not worship Mary, and accept the religion of those who do, seem to me to be promoting athiesm. The only level on which we are free to invent whatever God suits us, is the level at which we say He does not exist and therefore has no say. I am strongly in favour of freedom of religion, and strongly against any form of bigotry, but while I would never attack anyone for their beliefs, I'd also feel that unless I was willing to tell them politely that I disagree, I am in fact saying I have no opinion at all, or that I believe religion is just a fairy tale, so it doesn't matter which story you prefer. So long as religion is just a vehicle for people to be nice to each other, that may be true, but if there is a God, then it just isn't the case. Now I guess I'll sit back and watch people misinterpret what I just said...... Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
I'm an atheist and have absolutely no opinion on this matter... Errr... please return to your regularly scheduled programming. :-O Mike Mullikin :beer:
Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation. - David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
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Simon Walton wrote: It's interesting that so many Physists and Cosmologists have religous leanings. (From a website) "Scientists are anchored in the U. S. mainstream." It says that half participate in religious activities regularly. Looking at the poll is that 43% of Ph.D. scientists are in church on a typical Sunday. In the American public, 44% are in church on a typical Sunday (Poll of the professional society Sigma Zi to which Three thousand three hundred responded) I always find it funny when people pull this one up. And I question the veracity of their (the source not Simon) data. Not because I disbelieve the existence of God but, because I completed my Masters in Physics in ‘97 while most of my friends went on to get their Ph.D. I can honestly say that 90% of my peer group at the time was very "skeptical" about the existence of God. We had many heated debates at the local dive bars on the very topic. These generally ended with drunken insults and “Gravity Experiments” off the top of the science building of anything we could find that weighed more than 30lbs. The point being, at least to me, is that religious faith is a personal decision. And, something that someone should not feel need to justify. That is why I am always amused to see people trying so hard to convince other people. Damn, now my secret is out ….now every one will know I *shudder* studied physics. Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.
The fact that you had many heated debates in itself proves something. I'm sure as a physics master you know the history of physics and how it is inter-weaved with theology to show justifications for natural phenomenon. The separation of the two sciences is only an aberration. Chris Austin wrote: Damn, now my secret is out ….now every one will know I *shudder* studied physics. Only in a dark alley at knife point would I tell what I have studied. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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I believe the same is true of doctors (especially in the US). I've read some interesting case studies on the power of prayer in medicine. :) Anna :rose: "Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia GraeschThe same power runs both ways. You can heal and make people ill with it. I'm sure all this "smoking causes cancer" nonsense is actually causing more cancer via suggestion. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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I'm an atheist and have absolutely no opinion on this matter... Errr... please return to your regularly scheduled programming. :-O Mike Mullikin :beer:
Well, I'm sure I'd feel much worse if I weren't under such heavy sedation. - David St. Hubbins, Spinal Tap
Mike Mullikin wrote: I'm an atheist and have absolutely no opinion on this matter... :-) you don't know what you are talking about !! :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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Christian Graus wrote: I am strongly in favour of freedom of religion, and strongly against any form of bigotry, but while I would never attack anyone for their beliefs, I'd also feel that unless I was willing to tell them politely that I disagree, I am in fact saying I have no opinion at all, or that I believe religion is just a fairy tale, so it doesn't matter which story you prefer. So long as religion is just a vehicle for people to be nice to each other, that may be true, but if there is a God, then it just isn't the case. Finally! Someone I totally agree with. I hate it when people say that "My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you". It's like, "And which religion is good for God?"
You will now find yourself in a wonderous, magical place, filled with talking gnomes, mythical squirrels, and, almost as an afterthought, your bookmarks -Shog9 teaching Mel Feik how to bookmark I don't know whether it's just the light but I swear the database server gives me dirty looks everytime I wander past. -Chris Maunder
David Stone wrote: Finally! Someone I totally agree with. Ditto here, at least on this topic, well said Christian. David Stone wrote: I hate it when people say that "My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you". It's like, "And which religion is good for God?" For your exact word I agree. However I have to say I rarely actually hear this. My take is that GOD did not ask me to be a judge of others so I try not to. Yes I really get mad at times and do not hold my tongue, My apologies. My GOD did ask me to share so I do. I am somewhat of an introvert so hopefully GOD is not too disappointed in my efforts. I have noticed (been told) that, your actions are often the strongest statement you can make. So hopefully my dedication shows more than my words. "I will find a new sig someday."
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David Stone wrote: Finally! Someone I totally agree with. Ditto here, at least on this topic, well said Christian. David Stone wrote: I hate it when people say that "My religion is good for me and your religion is good for you". It's like, "And which religion is good for God?" For your exact word I agree. However I have to say I rarely actually hear this. My take is that GOD did not ask me to be a judge of others so I try not to. Yes I really get mad at times and do not hold my tongue, My apologies. My GOD did ask me to share so I do. I am somewhat of an introvert so hopefully GOD is not too disappointed in my efforts. I have noticed (been told) that, your actions are often the strongest statement you can make. So hopefully my dedication shows more than my words. "I will find a new sig someday."
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: I have noticed (been told) that, your actions are often the strongest statement you can make. So hopefully my dedication shows more than my words. Absolutely - talk is cheap, especially where religion is concerned. It makes me sad that I cannot tell people I am a Christian without explaining what that means, because most people do not know, they have no point of reference to help them, and many that give the wrong idea. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002 During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002