The food shortage problem:
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But they are deer, not that I expect humans to not kill eachother (hell no, we'd do it more readily than deer I think, really how often do you see a murderous deer?) but differences between species have been noted. Someone did an experiment where monkeys could reach food, but doing so would give his mate in the other cage an electric shock - strangely they starved themselves to death. Humans would never do that except maybe some weird nutcases, but I still find it surprising that such behaviour exists at all. What's the evolutionary advantage of starving to death?
David1987 wrote:
really how often do you see a murderous deer?
That was what made it odd, deer rarely fight to death, but it seemed they were killing each other (maybe regular, survivable blows to a weakened deer became fatal).
David1987 wrote:
Someone did an experiment where monkeys could reach food, but doing so would give his mate in the other cage an electric shock - strangely they starved themselves to death.
First the monkey experiment. The shocking is a sudden, noticeable pain to observers, I'm sure the shocked monkey yelped or screamed. However the pain of starvation would be constant, slow, and more internal, though still leading to death. The monkeys that starved saw the immediate pain of the other and thought, "Shit, he's worse off than me, I don't need the food right now." until it died, probably not realizing it was making a decision to choose death.
David1987 wrote:
What's the evolutionary advantage of starving to death?
I actually can see a point to this. If there is a surplus population and scarce food, and some chose to starve so others can eat, the species would have a better shot of surviving. Example, there is enough food to constantly sustain 10 beings, yet there are 50 beings. Rather than split up the food for 10 among all 50, supplying each with only 20% of needed foods (which would lead to a decrease in health, increase in disease, risking the entire 50's lives; it is better for the species to cull or suicide itself to the level so the species' survival is more certain. Those beings that choose starvation so others can eat would be the more empathetic of the species, and they would not carry on in the species, which may actually increase the chance of survival by allowing the more selfish and competitive to carry on.
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!" — Hunter S. Thompson
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David1987 wrote:
really how often do you see a murderous deer?
That was what made it odd, deer rarely fight to death, but it seemed they were killing each other (maybe regular, survivable blows to a weakened deer became fatal).
David1987 wrote:
Someone did an experiment where monkeys could reach food, but doing so would give his mate in the other cage an electric shock - strangely they starved themselves to death.
First the monkey experiment. The shocking is a sudden, noticeable pain to observers, I'm sure the shocked monkey yelped or screamed. However the pain of starvation would be constant, slow, and more internal, though still leading to death. The monkeys that starved saw the immediate pain of the other and thought, "Shit, he's worse off than me, I don't need the food right now." until it died, probably not realizing it was making a decision to choose death.
David1987 wrote:
What's the evolutionary advantage of starving to death?
I actually can see a point to this. If there is a surplus population and scarce food, and some chose to starve so others can eat, the species would have a better shot of surviving. Example, there is enough food to constantly sustain 10 beings, yet there are 50 beings. Rather than split up the food for 10 among all 50, supplying each with only 20% of needed foods (which would lead to a decrease in health, increase in disease, risking the entire 50's lives; it is better for the species to cull or suicide itself to the level so the species' survival is more certain. Those beings that choose starvation so others can eat would be the more empathetic of the species, and they would not carry on in the species, which may actually increase the chance of survival by allowing the more selfish and competitive to carry on.
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!" — Hunter S. Thompson
wizardzz wrote:
First the monkey experiment. The shocking is a sudden, noticeable pain to observers, I'm sure the shocked monkey yelped or screamed. However the pain of starvation would be constant, slow, and more internal, though still leading to death. The monkeys that starved saw the immediate pain of the other and thought, "sh*t, he's worse off than me, I don't need the food right now." until it died, probably not realizing it was making a decision to choose death.
Makes sense - I guess that's immediately the reason why humans wouldn't do this, they'd realize what they were doing.
wizardzz wrote:
If there is a surplus population and scarce food, and some chose to starve so others can eat, the species would have a better shot of surviving.
It depends. The ones sacrificing themselves would have to be the weak ones. Doesn't it make more sense, evolutionary, to fight over the food and let it go to the winner?
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wizardzz wrote:
First the monkey experiment. The shocking is a sudden, noticeable pain to observers, I'm sure the shocked monkey yelped or screamed. However the pain of starvation would be constant, slow, and more internal, though still leading to death. The monkeys that starved saw the immediate pain of the other and thought, "sh*t, he's worse off than me, I don't need the food right now." until it died, probably not realizing it was making a decision to choose death.
Makes sense - I guess that's immediately the reason why humans wouldn't do this, they'd realize what they were doing.
wizardzz wrote:
If there is a surplus population and scarce food, and some chose to starve so others can eat, the species would have a better shot of surviving.
It depends. The ones sacrificing themselves would have to be the weak ones. Doesn't it make more sense, evolutionary, to fight over the food and let it go to the winner?
David1987 wrote:
It depends. The ones sacrificing themselves would have to be the weak ones. Doesn't it make more sense, evolutionary, to fight over the food and let it go to the winner?
I should elaborate what I meant, the ones that would choose to starve would be ones unwilling to fight for whatever reason (too weak, empathy, pacifism, knowing they would lose if they even tried). These would benefit the survivors because survivors wouldn't have to had risked their health, energy, remaining resources, etc, on eliminating others. I understand this is not really an evolutionary concept, more of an immediate likeliness of survival theory. I don't know, just my theory and I'm glad we're having a nice, civilized discussion on CP!
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!" — Hunter S. Thompson
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David1987 wrote:
It depends. The ones sacrificing themselves would have to be the weak ones. Doesn't it make more sense, evolutionary, to fight over the food and let it go to the winner?
I should elaborate what I meant, the ones that would choose to starve would be ones unwilling to fight for whatever reason (too weak, empathy, pacifism, knowing they would lose if they even tried). These would benefit the survivors because survivors wouldn't have to had risked their health, energy, remaining resources, etc, on eliminating others. I understand this is not really an evolutionary concept, more of an immediate likeliness of survival theory. I don't know, just my theory and I'm glad we're having a nice, civilized discussion on CP!
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!" — Hunter S. Thompson
-
David1987 wrote:
really how often do you see a murderous deer?
That was what made it odd, deer rarely fight to death, but it seemed they were killing each other (maybe regular, survivable blows to a weakened deer became fatal).
David1987 wrote:
Someone did an experiment where monkeys could reach food, but doing so would give his mate in the other cage an electric shock - strangely they starved themselves to death.
First the monkey experiment. The shocking is a sudden, noticeable pain to observers, I'm sure the shocked monkey yelped or screamed. However the pain of starvation would be constant, slow, and more internal, though still leading to death. The monkeys that starved saw the immediate pain of the other and thought, "Shit, he's worse off than me, I don't need the food right now." until it died, probably not realizing it was making a decision to choose death.
David1987 wrote:
What's the evolutionary advantage of starving to death?
I actually can see a point to this. If there is a surplus population and scarce food, and some chose to starve so others can eat, the species would have a better shot of surviving. Example, there is enough food to constantly sustain 10 beings, yet there are 50 beings. Rather than split up the food for 10 among all 50, supplying each with only 20% of needed foods (which would lead to a decrease in health, increase in disease, risking the entire 50's lives; it is better for the species to cull or suicide itself to the level so the species' survival is more certain. Those beings that choose starvation so others can eat would be the more empathetic of the species, and they would not carry on in the species, which may actually increase the chance of survival by allowing the more selfish and competitive to carry on.
"Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!" — Hunter S. Thompson
wizardzz wrote:
I actually can see a point to this. If there is a surplus population and scarce food, and some chose to starve so others can eat, the species would have a better shot of surviving. Example, there is enough food to constantly sustain 10 beings, yet there are 50 beings. Rather than split up the food for 10 among all 50, supplying each with only 20% of needed foods (which would lead to a decrease in health, increase in disease, risking the entire 50's lives; it is better for the species to cull or suicide itself to the level so the species' survival is more certain. Those beings that choose starvation so others can eat would be the more empathetic of the species, and they would not carry on in the species, which may actually increase the chance of survival by allowing the more selfish and competitive to carry on.
Interesting hypothesis... If you carry it forward, though, I don't think it would work in the long term. If, during the first food crisis (For lack of a better term), the more empathetic ones choose to die to allow the others to survive, what do you end up with? The ones that survive and reproduce would be, on average, less empathetic than their ancestors. Move forward a generation or two, and you could breed out that trait entirely... That's assuming it's genetically-based, of course. So with repeated events like this, such as cold winters, the more selfish ones still come out on top, assuming the entire population isn't eliminated. On the other hand, if instead of a 5:1 ratio of beings:food, it was closer to 2:1, the empathetic trait might win out, as a group that shared would maintain a higher population than one that competed and culled. Half rations would probably weed out those who were already weak, but the overall population size might remain larger than the group that culls itself down to 1:1. Granted, there are enough gray areas in all of this to make every one of my deductions flawed :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
wizardzz wrote:
I actually can see a point to this. If there is a surplus population and scarce food, and some chose to starve so others can eat, the species would have a better shot of surviving. Example, there is enough food to constantly sustain 10 beings, yet there are 50 beings. Rather than split up the food for 10 among all 50, supplying each with only 20% of needed foods (which would lead to a decrease in health, increase in disease, risking the entire 50's lives; it is better for the species to cull or suicide itself to the level so the species' survival is more certain. Those beings that choose starvation so others can eat would be the more empathetic of the species, and they would not carry on in the species, which may actually increase the chance of survival by allowing the more selfish and competitive to carry on.
Interesting hypothesis... If you carry it forward, though, I don't think it would work in the long term. If, during the first food crisis (For lack of a better term), the more empathetic ones choose to die to allow the others to survive, what do you end up with? The ones that survive and reproduce would be, on average, less empathetic than their ancestors. Move forward a generation or two, and you could breed out that trait entirely... That's assuming it's genetically-based, of course. So with repeated events like this, such as cold winters, the more selfish ones still come out on top, assuming the entire population isn't eliminated. On the other hand, if instead of a 5:1 ratio of beings:food, it was closer to 2:1, the empathetic trait might win out, as a group that shared would maintain a higher population than one that competed and culled. Half rations would probably weed out those who were already weak, but the overall population size might remain larger than the group that culls itself down to 1:1. Granted, there are enough gray areas in all of this to make every one of my deductions flawed :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)I took his hypothesis to mean that the unwillingness to fight for food wasn't so much due to genes specific to that individual, but due to "giving up early because it knows it's inferior from earlier experiences" - a trait like that could stay, could it not? The stronger individuals would continue to fight for survival but still carry those genes..
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I took his hypothesis to mean that the unwillingness to fight for food wasn't so much due to genes specific to that individual, but due to "giving up early because it knows it's inferior from earlier experiences" - a trait like that could stay, could it not? The stronger individuals would continue to fight for survival but still carry those genes..
Hmm, I don't know. I generally think of genetic traits as fairly simplistic... "Aggressive", "Empathetic", "Brave", "Cautious", "Energetic"... That kind of thing... If the population is generally more aggressive, then they're more likely to fight over food instead of surrendering early. Just guesses and speculation, of course.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Hmm, I don't know. I generally think of genetic traits as fairly simplistic... "Aggressive", "Empathetic", "Brave", "Cautious", "Energetic"... That kind of thing... If the population is generally more aggressive, then they're more likely to fight over food instead of surrendering early. Just guesses and speculation, of course.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Well, this is starting to leave the boundaries of what I could claim to know. I'm not a biologist..
Neither am I... Like I said, guessing and speculation. The way I see it, nature generally functions on very basic principles, scaled up immensely. All of physics, for example, can be traced back to a few elementary particles and four forces (Gravity, EM, Strong, Weak). Everything else is just extrapolated from there. Biology seems to work similarly... How aggressive we are is based on the amount of testosterone our body produces (I'm sure there are other factors, so yes, I'm oversimplifying)... The "normal" testosterone production level is probably controlled by one or more genes... Hence, aggression levels could be passed down genetically. Empathy is a pretty general concept, too... The ability to identify with others... A basic emotion or feeling or whatever the right word is... But the ability to predict the result of a confrontation and know when to just give up instead of fighting? That seems, to me, to be based on a combination of genetic predisposition and experience, and you can't pass experience down genetically... Then again, there are base instincts... Maybe it could be linked to that... I dunno... It's just interesting to think about :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Neither am I... Like I said, guessing and speculation. The way I see it, nature generally functions on very basic principles, scaled up immensely. All of physics, for example, can be traced back to a few elementary particles and four forces (Gravity, EM, Strong, Weak). Everything else is just extrapolated from there. Biology seems to work similarly... How aggressive we are is based on the amount of testosterone our body produces (I'm sure there are other factors, so yes, I'm oversimplifying)... The "normal" testosterone production level is probably controlled by one or more genes... Hence, aggression levels could be passed down genetically. Empathy is a pretty general concept, too... The ability to identify with others... A basic emotion or feeling or whatever the right word is... But the ability to predict the result of a confrontation and know when to just give up instead of fighting? That seems, to me, to be based on a combination of genetic predisposition and experience, and you can't pass experience down genetically... Then again, there are base instincts... Maybe it could be linked to that... I dunno... It's just interesting to think about :)
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Ian Shlasko wrote:
and you can't pass experience down genetically...
There is that, but what about the tendency to give up quickly after losing just a few fights?
Stubbornness, or in this case, lack thereof... It's possible.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)