Changing our ways
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I won't bore you all with a big reply to this but one thing really caught my eye in your (very good) post: Paul Watson wrote: The pro-consumer even brought up the "So what if all Elephants died, it would not affect my daily life" statement This is an amazingly selfish attitude to have, IMHO, and one that is the root cause of a lot of the problems you describe. I think most people who have been anywhere near an elephant would feel a sense of awe about such an amazing creature (OK, so I really like elephants) and we would all be the poorer if they were to vanish off the face of the earth. It's not a question of making the planet a zoo - even if they were to die out from natural causes, it would be a sad passing. My point is that the "pro-consumer" doesn't give a damn about anything that doesn't affect him personally. Millions of people die from hunger each year but that doesn't concern him. The twin towers come down but because he lives in Australia, it doesn't matter. But it does. We live in a big global community, more now than ever before, and just the same way that if we ignore bad shit going on at the end of our street, it will eventually come back to bite us on the ass, ignoring bad shit happening on the other side of the world will eventually come around to us.
he he he. I like it in the kitchen! - Marc Clifton (on taking the heat when being flamed) Awasu v0.4a[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
Taka Muraoka wrote: We live in a big global community, more now than ever before, and just the same way that if we ignore bad sh*t going on at the end of our street, it will eventually come back to bite us on the ass, ignoring bad sh*t happening on the other side of the world will eventually come around to us. Very true Taka. How do we change these people views though? We all know that people are very defensive about their thoughts, and are generally hesistant to admit they are wrong. So how can you educate people without preaching, or without seeming "holier than thou", and without being condescending? BW "If you enjoy what you do, you'll never work another day in your life." - Confucius
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Roger Wright wrote: That's one theory Roger Wright wrote: Variants of the theory proposed that it was intended to wipe out blacks, homosexuals, Wooops, I certainly did not mean that HIV was a homosexual only disease or that they caused it or anything. I guess I should have added in that the one particularly prevelant string of HIV evolved to be specialised in homosexual communities and that it was able to evolve faster in that community because homosexuals tended to have far more partners (and therefore far more chances for the disease to spread and live longer to replicate more) than in other sexual communities. I was reading Almost Like A Whale and HIV was touted as a great example of evolution in action on a human time scale. The author mentioned the possible origin of HIV being monkeys but said there is very little conclusive proof still. Roger Wright wrote: Fortunately, this theory has died out, though I'll bet I can find a bunch of rednecks here in Arizona who still believe it in one form or another... For that matter, it might even be true! You only have to come to Africa and listen to someone like Rob Mugabe to hear that theory of HIV being a disease made by The White Man intended to wipe out The Black Man. He, and other black leaders, use it to rally the troops against The Evil Westerners.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaShog9 wrote: Everybody just wants to be naked and famous, Paul.
Paul Watson wrote: Wooops, I certainly did not mean that HIV was a homosexual only disease or that they caused it or anything Quit being so damned polically correct!:laugh: You didn't imply any such thing, but the fact remains that homosexual behavior was responsible for the bulk of its initial spread. Drug users were next, as needles are controlled paraphenalia in most places and so tend to be re-used. In time, it inevitably became a plague on all sectors of society, as all groups tend to overlap in real communities. It's said that "familiarity breeds contempt" - in this case "diversity breeds." HIV research probably got shortchanged in the beginning because it only affected undesirable elements that the "normal" majority secretly wished would go away any way. But we're all in this together now, and there's no turning that back. "How many times do I have to flush before you go away?" - Megan Forbes, on Management (12/5/2002)
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Taka Muraoka wrote: We live in a big global community, more now than ever before, and just the same way that if we ignore bad sh*t going on at the end of our street, it will eventually come back to bite us on the ass, ignoring bad sh*t happening on the other side of the world will eventually come around to us. Very true Taka. How do we change these people views though? We all know that people are very defensive about their thoughts, and are generally hesistant to admit they are wrong. So how can you educate people without preaching, or without seeming "holier than thou", and without being condescending? BW "If you enjoy what you do, you'll never work another day in your life." - Confucius
brianwelsch wrote: How do we change these people views though? You can't. The best you can do is point out causes and effects and let people draw their own conclusions. Take the twin towers. There's no disagreement that this was a dreadful thing to do but why did it happen in the US instead of Sweden or Canada? Because the guys who did it really hate the US. And why? Well, you could come up with any number of reasons but a lot of it would have to do with American behaviour overseas, how they treat other countries, how they conduct themselves on the world stage. In the aftermath of that attack, and even now, there are so many people who are not willing to openly talk about the possible reasons behind this event. These terrorists are fanatics, they don't follow any rules of decency or normality, they're maniacs, they hate democracy, they hate the US. People who say this probably have a fairly closed mind already and you are unlikely to persuade them to think otherwise, no matter what you might say. There's such a culture of not taking personal responsibility in the US and this strikes me as more of the same. It's the Axis of Evil, these guys are Muslim fanatics, but few seem to be willing to entertain the possibility that it might have been something that the US has done over the past 10, 20, 50 years to piss these guys off so badly. But to get back on topic :-) We could say to pro-consumer "well, yes, having no elephants doesn't affect your daily life but so would having no tigers, leopards, seals. Anything other cats and dogs, really. Can you imagine living in such a world. Rain-forests and national parks don't really affect you either. Ditto for a couple million Africans dying of AIDS this year. But all these people suffering around the world are eventually going to get around to noticing you living in your middle-class suburb, throwing away food and chewing up natural resources so that you can buy un-necessary consumer goods and before you know it, somebody's going to be flying a few 747's into *your* office block."
he he he. I like it in the kitchen! - Marc Clifton (on taking the heat when being flamed) Awasu v0.4a[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
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brianwelsch wrote: How do we change these people views though? You can't. The best you can do is point out causes and effects and let people draw their own conclusions. Take the twin towers. There's no disagreement that this was a dreadful thing to do but why did it happen in the US instead of Sweden or Canada? Because the guys who did it really hate the US. And why? Well, you could come up with any number of reasons but a lot of it would have to do with American behaviour overseas, how they treat other countries, how they conduct themselves on the world stage. In the aftermath of that attack, and even now, there are so many people who are not willing to openly talk about the possible reasons behind this event. These terrorists are fanatics, they don't follow any rules of decency or normality, they're maniacs, they hate democracy, they hate the US. People who say this probably have a fairly closed mind already and you are unlikely to persuade them to think otherwise, no matter what you might say. There's such a culture of not taking personal responsibility in the US and this strikes me as more of the same. It's the Axis of Evil, these guys are Muslim fanatics, but few seem to be willing to entertain the possibility that it might have been something that the US has done over the past 10, 20, 50 years to piss these guys off so badly. But to get back on topic :-) We could say to pro-consumer "well, yes, having no elephants doesn't affect your daily life but so would having no tigers, leopards, seals. Anything other cats and dogs, really. Can you imagine living in such a world. Rain-forests and national parks don't really affect you either. Ditto for a couple million Africans dying of AIDS this year. But all these people suffering around the world are eventually going to get around to noticing you living in your middle-class suburb, throwing away food and chewing up natural resources so that you can buy un-necessary consumer goods and before you know it, somebody's going to be flying a few 747's into *your* office block."
he he he. I like it in the kitchen! - Marc Clifton (on taking the heat when being flamed) Awasu v0.4a[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
I completely understand your point, however, I wasn't really addressing why people dislike the US. I was trying to get suggestions on how to move forward. How do you educate people to come to their own conclusion that efficient use of energy really would be better for everyone, including themselves? How can you convince people to put aside their own economics in order to make positive changes? People are starving because their own governments are corrupt, not because my neighbor, keeps his lights on, and drives an SUV. Are the Africans dying AIDS because of the US? or maybe because a lack of education and poor living conditions. The tactic that we should care because the rest of the world hates us is lame. We should care because its the right thing to do. A month or so ago, I put up two posts, one asked for people to illustrate to me how the US has poorly effected them, and the other asked for a list of current great leaders (Since Bush wasn't one). I got squat back for an answer. All this talk about the evil empire, and no one came up with reasonable illustrations on how they were effected. So it led me to believe much of it was perception. Not to say it isn't based on some solid facts, but our reputation seems to blown and taken a life of its own. I don't disagree that we have much to improve, I would just rather see discussion towards improving things rather than constant attacks. It seems a more productive route. BW "If you enjoy what you do, you'll never work another day in your life." - Confucius
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I completely understand your point, however, I wasn't really addressing why people dislike the US. I was trying to get suggestions on how to move forward. How do you educate people to come to their own conclusion that efficient use of energy really would be better for everyone, including themselves? How can you convince people to put aside their own economics in order to make positive changes? People are starving because their own governments are corrupt, not because my neighbor, keeps his lights on, and drives an SUV. Are the Africans dying AIDS because of the US? or maybe because a lack of education and poor living conditions. The tactic that we should care because the rest of the world hates us is lame. We should care because its the right thing to do. A month or so ago, I put up two posts, one asked for people to illustrate to me how the US has poorly effected them, and the other asked for a list of current great leaders (Since Bush wasn't one). I got squat back for an answer. All this talk about the evil empire, and no one came up with reasonable illustrations on how they were effected. So it led me to believe much of it was perception. Not to say it isn't based on some solid facts, but our reputation seems to blown and taken a life of its own. I don't disagree that we have much to improve, I would just rather see discussion towards improving things rather than constant attacks. It seems a more productive route. BW "If you enjoy what you do, you'll never work another day in your life." - Confucius
brianwelsch wrote: I wasn't really addressing why people dislike the US. Yes, I was aware that my reply ended up a bit of an anti-US rant :-) but I was trying to make the point that the things we see happening today are caused by things that we did yesterday. brianwelsch wrote: How do you educate people to come to their own conclusion that efficient use of energy really would be better for everyone, including themselves? I'm not sure if it's a matter of education. Everyone already knows that recycling is Good, global warming is Bad, CFC's are Bad, conservation is Good. The trick is to make people care enough to do something about it and change their behaviour. For one, you have to make it easy to do. People will always take the path of least resistance and in the US, ridiculously cheap petrol, cheap cars, poor public transport means that SUV's are a viable option. But we in the west seem to think that we have a God-given right to burn up a non-renewable resource as if it cost nothing. Tax the crap out of cars, big, gas-guzzling cars in particular, take the money we spend on roads and put it into public transport, and so on. But there are political reasons why these things will never happen, because we will never be able to think and plan further ahead than the next election :-( Cultural attitudes also play a big role. I've never lived in Japan but I believe that recycling is really big there because 1) the Goverment makes it really easy to do and 2) everyone else does it. brianwelsch wrote: People are starving because their own governments are corrupt, not because my neighbor, keeps his lights on, and drives an SUV. Are the Africans dying AIDS because of the US? or maybe because a lack of education and poor living conditions. I wasn't suggesting that there was a *direct* link between these things but rather that the fact that these things happen in the world at all makes us the poorer for it. If somebody in my street was starving, I'd like to think I would do something to try help. And if somebody dies in Africa from hunger and I do nothing about it, well that reflects on me as well. I can't do something about all the problems in the world today but at the very least, I can give a shit. brianwelsch wrote: I would just rather see discussion towards improving things rather than constant attacks. It seems a more productive route. My previous post wasn't just a blind
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Colin Davies wrote: This is your best post for a while Paul !! Well done !! :-O ta Colin Davies wrote: What about the Ice Age and the after Ice Age effects that would have ravaged the USA far more then any other global area excluding the north Atlantic ? Ok I cannot remember exact dates (this was from that book Guns, Germs and Steel) but there was that mini ice age and even after that North America contained a good share of large animals which are today very much extinct. Hazy on the details but when the humans crossed the strait into NA there were large populations of these animals which they proceeded to wipe out, even having the primitive weapons that they did. Fossil records show a rapid decline in these animal populations which coincided very well with the introduction of humans. Apparently also NA was heavily populated, for a hunter gatherer life style, by humans right up until Mr. Columbus and his merry disease carrying troupe arrived. However not much longer after that the Europeans who moved westward reported that the continent was quite sparsely populated. All because the epedimic diseases the Europeans brought with them traveled like a huge ripple through the continent wiping out huge populations of Native Indian Americans who were not resistant in anyway to the new diseases. Quite sad really and now whenever some yank tells me that my ancestors wiped out blacks by the score when we landed here in South Africa I can show them they did just the same, even if they did not know it. Knowledge is power! :-D Colin Davies wrote: My solution to ecology is that we need to depopulate the planet of humans by a large factor. Humans are currently using too many resources per individual unit. Any good Sims gamer could tell you that though. But it is not an acceptable solution, is it? Who gets to choose which populations get wiped out? I will bet the States would have first say and Africa and it's lot the last say. Yet do we want the States to be the human legacy that goes forward while Indians, Chinese and Aborigines do not? On what criteria do we choose? Nobody would ever agree. Colin Davies wrote: Humans are currently using too many resources per individual unit. Compare the consumption of a US citizen vs. an Ethiopian citizen. An incredible and frightening difference. I think most estimates show that if every human lived at the level of the average US citize
Paul Watson wrote: But it is not an acceptable solution, is it? Who gets to choose which populations get wiped out? I will bet the States would have first say and Africa and it's lot the last say. Yet do we want the States to be the human legacy that goes forward while Indians, Chinese and Aborigines do not? On what criteria do we choose? Nobody would ever agree. I see it somewhat different, as we don't need to machinegun slaughter, or poison water supplies of cities. Notice how Sweden and other countries are becoming depopulated now and you see the solutions are simpler. Paul Watson wrote: My hippy tree hugging friend made a good point; We seem to be trying to raise the rest of the world up to American standards. To get all African access to what Americans have access to. But we really should be trying to find a way to get Americans to drop their standards. Obviously not to the level of Africans, but to some basic level which we can live at. Lots of hippies have said similar stuff, and I must say I somewhat agree. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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Paul Watson wrote: So thanks for the confidence boost I was just being honest :) You use a language which is very easy to comprehend (especially noticable for me since my mother tongue is Swedish), and I think you present your arguments in a credible way. Do you use any special techniques or does it come naturally? Paul Watson wrote: * And if you are taking the piss... then shame on you, you break my heart... :~ There goes the comprehensible english. :-D -- Only in a world this shitty could you even try to say these were innocent people and keep a straight face.
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Do you use any special techniques or does it come naturally? I write like I think as much as possible. Thanks again for the compliments :)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaShog9 wrote: Everybody just wants to be naked and famous, Paul.
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Wow. Well at first I thought you were taking the piss, but you may be serious after all. Ummm. How to answer. Hmmm. First off there is no mother nature. No divine spirit guiding hedgehogs and platypuses etc. There is no force biding it's time to wipe us out. Nor will it suddenly appear when we cross some threshold. Nature is not fighting back as we have come to think things fight back, i.e. led by some rhetoric or common cause which is distributed amongst the individuals. Every component of nature, of which we are, fights for itself and the propogation of itself. If cutting down trees helps savanah loving buck, then no problemo from the buck, they will cheer us on. But the lesser spotted tree hugging lemurs will fight back, however feebly. Anyway, point, don't hold your breath waiting for mother nature to come out of her cave to open a can of whoopass on us. The only can of whoopass that can be opened is by us on ourselves. As for the whole "hollow earth" deal I am no geologist but I don't think you fears are grounded on anything. Mt. Everset, and the Himalayas, for instance constitute a sizable chunk of mass. Far greater than any amount we have dug out of the Earth and placed on the surface, way, way more. Yet the difference in gravity around the Himalayas, and on the other side of the earth, is only measurable by very sensitive equipment. You don't get to Mt. Everest and suddenly feel heavier. Also you can't exactly hollow out the earth. The middle happens to be molten rock, not a solid chunk at all. Our mines reach down to a maximum of 6 kilometres, pretty far but the core is hundreds of kilometres down. Far further than we can ever conceive of digging, plus of course we only dig in the mantle which is just a thin crust. Our earth is far larger than many of us seem to think. I will give you merit for a great imagination though, you should write a sci-fi book or movie script :) (no sarcasm intended, at least you had guts to reach out and say what you thought)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaShog9 wrote: Everybody just wants to be naked and famous, Paul.
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Paul Watson wrote: Sure, most of those components have a high initial cost but then a low maintenance cost. Isn't that the point ? Once I have the PC, I have access to unlimited books. Plus I have the PC already. You could as easily complain about the trees cut down to build houses. I dunno about you, but I think that sleeping outdoors and eating raw meat ( wood required to cook it ) is not an option. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002 C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002 Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002
Christian Graus wrote: I dunno about you, but I think that sleeping outdoors and eating raw meat ( wood required to cook it ) is not an option. Your just a fucking wimp Christian Graus. ;P Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
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Christian Graus wrote: I dunno about you, but I think that sleeping outdoors and eating raw meat ( wood required to cook it ) is not an option. Your just a fucking wimp Christian Graus. ;P Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002
Michael Martin wrote: wimp Christian Graus Every chance I get. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002