On Rejecting Religious Morals (long post)
-
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Paul, Can you clarify why you feel his statement implies morals are only found in religous people I think it is more a case of that is what I am used to from religious people and his statement does not deny it. From that I felt that if he made it clearer that he was not saying only religious people have morals then his message will be more widely accepted. Peoples defenses quickly go up at the slightest provocation or hint of holier than thou attitude. Once they are up though, they are much slower to come down and by then the rest of the message would have been lost or jaded by the conception. Even if it is a misconception. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: What I read was if you are not religous please base your morals on religious principles That brings the defenses up. :) I don't like to be told to base my morals on something I have rejected (though not wholly of course.) This is all very complex and requires a lot more discussion. Essentially though I feel my morals are, as someone else mentioned, based on millenia of communal living. Cause and effect, trial and error. I am not keen on the idea that we need a higher power to hand down morals or tell us what is right and wrong. We are capable of figuring that out ourselves. So when a religious person tells me that I have no morals then I get irate. Also when a religious person says that I should base my morals on their "system" I feel as if they are being patronising, condescending to us poor non-believers. I base my morals on what I see and experience. I put faith in my own capabilities to discern what is right and wrong. I do my best to learn from history and those who are wiser, but also without being totally bound by them for both history and even the wisest are fallible.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaPaul Watson wrote: "The Labia [cinema]... ...was opened by Princess Labia in May 1949..." Christian Graus wrote: See, I told you it was a nice name for a girl...
Paul Watson wrote: I don't like to be told to base my morals on something I have rejected (though not wholly of course.) You have just demonstrated my point. Non-religious people don't like having religious morals shoved down their throat, even if they are good morals. "Thou shalt not kill? I don't believe in God, so it's okay for me to kill." Somewhat of an exageration, but you see the point behind it.
"My brother says 'Hello'... So hurray for speech therapy!" -Emo Phillips
-
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Now how do others claim you are forcing Christianity down their throats from this? You are just asking to have moral values based on something other than relativist judgments. Because "retain the fundamental moral values of right and wrong that they [Christianity] teach." sounds like you are saying that without Christianity or other religions we would not have anything to discern our morals from. Maybe that is not what you intend to mean, but to those of us who are "outside" it certainly does sound like that. You must be careful, we have endured much tongue-lashing from religious people for our choices and so our defenses spring up quickly, sometimes unjustly. Just as your defenses spring up when we tongue-lash your choices.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaPaul Watson wrote: "The Labia [cinema]... ...was opened by Princess Labia in May 1949..." Christian Graus wrote: See, I told you it was a nice name for a girl...
Paul Watson wrote: Because "retain the fundamental moral values of right and wrong that they [Christianity] teach." sounds like you are saying that without Christianity or other religions we would not have anything to discern our morals from. I guess the misunderstanding is that I was specifically refering to people who reject Christian morals just because they are Christian. I was not referring to those who retain morality outside of religious instruction. If you're already doing the right thing, you don't need any external teaching, but if you're specifically going out of your way to reject Christian morals, even though their beneficial, you've got problems bigger than this debate. "Love your neighboor. Do good to those in need." "Hey! Quit shoving your religion down my throat!" as opposed to "I was doing that anyway. What does Christianity have to do with it?"
"My brother says 'Hello'... So hurray for speech therapy!" -Emo Phillips
-
Kevnar wrote: Special interest groups tend to throw the baby out with the bath water, however, in rejecting universal laws of goodness and morality just because they happen to be religiously based teachings. Pure love, giving, sharing, forgiveness, kindness, humility, self-control, honesty, and faithfulness How are these religion-based? If there were no religion, could there not still be all these things? I don't think that's the case at all. Kevnar wrote: These values, if adhered to, will lead one toward a more peaceful and happy life in the end I don't disagree that these things can contribute to happiness and peacefulness, but who are you to tell all of us what will make our lives happy and peaceful? Kevnar wrote: In the exaltation of freedom of choice, the tendency is to remove any kind of moral absolute. I think you need to separate morality from religious beliefs. Nobody says the teacher can't tell the children it's wrong to steal, or hurt other children, or to do "bad things". The separation here, is that the teacher isn't supposed to teach the children things to do with religion, because it's not their place. Kevnar wrote: Reject religion if you must for the sake of freedom, but please, for the sake of humanity, retain the fundamental moral values of right and wrong that they teach. Now, you say you don't want to shove anything down my throat, but that sentence sure seems to be doing just that. I think I can find my own reasons to teach goodness, without referring to religion. I think that saying the reason you have morals is because you are religious, is a little bit funny. Would it not be possible to be un-religious, and still have good morals, or still be a "good person"?? Or do I, being a mere person, not have enough intelligence to derive my own sense of good morals and apply that to my life? I also think you are assuming that people don't care about these good things anymore, and while it may be true for some, it's not true for all of us, so please let us all make our own decisions. Chris Richardson Programmers find all sorts of ingenious ways to screw ourselves over. - Tim Smith
Chris Richardson wrote: I don't disagree that these things can contribute to happiness and peacefulness, but who are you to tell all of us what will make our lives happy and peaceful? As I said, there are universal laws of morality that all people can adhere to regardless of their faith that would make the world a better place. Love, honesty, faithfulness, kindness, humility, patience, etc. I'd like to see you live like this and not have a peaceful and happy life.
"My brother says 'Hello'... So hurray for speech therapy!" -Emo Phillips
-
“You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” –Galatians 5:13-14
There has been much debate in the holiday season the past few years about the removal of Christ and Christian themes from Christmas celebrations, and from society as a whole the rest of the year. As a Christian I can't say that I am entirely offended. I am grateful to be living in a free and democratic society where people of all faiths can celebrate whatever holidays they desire, without having other faiths thrust upon them. I doubt very much that people living in fundamentalist Islamic countries have such freedoms. If we Christians expect to have the freedom to practice our faith as we chose, we must also extend this freedom to others who don't follow our particular brand of faith. Though we don't agree, we must still respect others who have different understandings of God, and religion. To do otherwise is essentially shoving our faith down other people's throats, and I don't think Jesus would want that. We would become no better in the end than the Taliban of Afganistan. God always offers the freedom of choice. Who are we to remove that choice from others? Special interest groups tend to throw the baby out with the bath water, however, in rejecting universal laws of goodness and morality just because they happen to be religiously based teachings. Pure love, giving, sharing, forgiveness, kindness, humility, self-control, honesty, and faithfulness. These values, if adhered to, will lead one toward a more peaceful and happy life in the end. They are "religious values" however, and public schools are discouraged from enforcing them, or even suggesting that these traditional notions of morality are still right and good. They are at most, encouraged to tone them down to vague, bland, and inoffensive shadows of the original teachings, lest they be accused of "indoctrinating children with religion". In the exaltation of freedom of choice, the tendency is to remove any kind of moral absolute. In place of the self-evident laws of goodness and kindness that ought to be cardinal rules of humanity, the pursuit of freedom has led us down the path of self-interest. "If it feels good for me, it's okay, as long as no one is hurt." That seems like a good rule of thumb at first, but eventually when the lines between good and evil are blurred, peop
So the general consensus is, that this essay is trying to say that only religious people know right from wrong, and everyone else is lost and in need of guidance. Though that was not my intent, that's how it was interpretted. I'll have to rewrite it with greater clarity. Thanks for your comments. PS. I don't entirely believe the message of this essay, I was just fleshing out a certain train of thought. I tend to be more biblical in my convictions than this humanistic essay would suggest.
"My brother says 'Hello'... So hurray for speech therapy!" -Emo Phillips
-
Sorry for the late reply...just got back from the smeggin dentist. Michael A. Barnhart wrote: Then you can show me a static basis for morality that is not based on religious principles Sure.... How about all of Fables we learn as children to teach us morality...The three wolves. The Boy how cried wolf. The little prince....The princess and the pee....I can name several more. Not to mention some heavier stuff like Shakesphere: Hamlet, McBeth, Othello, The Tempest...alll of these were tales of morality..or the lack there of. I am assuming that you won't see it the same as I do :). But, we should also look at how non-static the chrurch has been over time. For example: The church (Protestant and Catholic) used to allow slavery. Now it has changed it's view. The Church used to say women can't be Ministers or Preachers, Now they can. The Church used to say people can't get divorced, now they can. Some Churches used to allow bigimoy, now most don't. .... I can go on and on. These are examples of the church Changing with / due to social pressues. One could argue that this is man's flawed implementation of religion. And of course there are lots of counters to that. But hey, life is too short to figt over it....we can keep beliving that the other is wrong and no one gets hurt. Best Regards Fill me with your knowledge, your wisdom, your coffee.
Chris Austin wrote: But hey, life is too short to figt over it....we can keep beliving that the other is wrong and no one gets hurt. Absolutely. Best wished from my end. "I will find a new sig someday."
-
Kevnar wrote: Special interest groups ?? you mean the NRA, ACLU, NOW ? you are obviously assuming that the only place to learn morailty is from a Christian upbringing. this is a mistake. it implies that 3/4 of the world is immoral; but it's easy to find people who are "moral" who aren't Christian; morality can come from a non-christian source, too. to me, this implies that either all religions inherit from a common base class (CMorality), or that morality itself is independent of religion. i'm betting on the latter. -c
Chris Losinger wrote: morality itself is independent of religion. i'm betting on the latter. That was the point of his essay. Moral behavior is often, wrongly, associated with religion, and is being lost as religion is being shoved out of the public eye. But moral behavior is independent of religious belief, and critical to a free society. "How many times do I have to flush before you go away?" - Megan Forbes, on Management (12/5/2002)
-
Kevnar wrote: Special interest groups ?? you mean the NRA, ACLU, NOW ? you are obviously assuming that the only place to learn morailty is from a Christian upbringing. this is a mistake. it implies that 3/4 of the world is immoral; but it's easy to find people who are "moral" who aren't Christian; morality can come from a non-christian source, too. to me, this implies that either all religions inherit from a common base class (CMorality), or that morality itself is independent of religion. i'm betting on the latter. -c
"act only on that maxim whereby thou canst will that it should become a universal law." Immanuel Kant - Foundations of the Metaphysics of Morals == CMorality? http://sguthrie.net/kant.htm[^] Or http://ghc.ctc.edu/HUMANITIES/DLARSON/kant.htm[^] for details... Chris Losinger wrote: all religions inherit from a common base class (CMorality), or that morality itself is independent of religion. i'm betting on the latter All religions inherit from a common base class, overriding any methods which conflict with self-propagation, and decorating it with useless trivia designed to confuse and disguise the true purpose of the new subclass... Damn, I don't believe I actually found something that I agree with Chris on... :omg: Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could have thought of them - George Orwell
-
"act only on that maxim whereby thou canst will that it should become a universal law." Immanuel Kant - Foundations of the Metaphysics of Morals == CMorality? http://sguthrie.net/kant.htm[^] Or http://ghc.ctc.edu/HUMANITIES/DLARSON/kant.htm[^] for details... Chris Losinger wrote: all religions inherit from a common base class (CMorality), or that morality itself is independent of religion. i'm betting on the latter All religions inherit from a common base class, overriding any methods which conflict with self-propagation, and decorating it with useless trivia designed to confuse and disguise the true purpose of the new subclass... Damn, I don't believe I actually found something that I agree with Chris on... :omg: Some ideas are so stupid that only an intellectual could have thought of them - George Orwell
Rob Graham wrote: Damn, I don't believe I actually found something that I agree with Chris on don't be surprised. i'm actually very agreeable :) -c
-
Paul Watson wrote: Why should I fear anything if I do well in life but do not believe in "God and the Last Day"? You don't need to fear anything to do well. We're given the conscience to do good and stay away from the evil. Will we get any reward for doing good in the life hereafter even if we don’t believe in God? I don’t have the authority to set the fate of someone in that part of our lives, but only thing I can say for sure that God almighty is merciful. Please read the following saying of Muhammad (sorry, it’s a bit long). "While a man was walking along a road, he became very thirsty and found a well. He lowered himself into the well, drank, and came out. Then [he saw] a dog protruding its tongue out with thirst. The man said: 'This dog has become exhausted from thirst in the same way as I.' He lowered himself into the well again and filled his shoe with water. He gave the dog some water to drink. He thanked God, and [his sins were] forgiven.' The Prophet was then asked: 'Is there a reward for us in our animals?' He said: 'There is a reward in every living thing.' " Fiqh-us-Sunnah, Vol. 3 #104.
Fazlul Kabir wrote: 'There is a reward in every living thing :) Now that I like. That I agree with and feel is just. I rebelled strongly against the Christian belief that if you did not accept Jesus Christ then you were damned to hell. No matter how you lived your life, no matter your thoughts or deeds. No matter that Jesus Christ was never even given as a choice to you. You went to hell anyway. Entire tribes on remote Polynesian islands have, according to the way of Christianity, been going to hell when they die for millenia. Never mind that there was no possible way Jesus Christ ever came to their island to give them a choice. That part sickens me. From what I have heard the counter to that from Christians is that God has his ways and has already mapped your life out for you. He knows before you are born wether you will choose Jesus Christ or not. Therefore if he knows that you wont then it is ok to put you on some island. X| Fazlul Kabir wrote: We're given the conscience to do good and stay away from the evil. Will we get any reward for doing good in the life hereafter even if we don’t believe in God? My belief is if you are true to yourself then you have lived your life well and that if there happens to be a merciful God and an afterlife then you will be accepted into Heaven/Nirvana/Valhalla/etc. If there is no God and afterlife, then no problem, for you have lived your life well and that is all the universe asks of us. Thanks for the passage. One day I should look more into the differences between Islam and Christianity :)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaPaul Watson wrote: "The Labia [cinema]... ...was opened by Princess Labia in May 1949..." Christian Graus wrote: See, I told you it was a nice name for a girl...
-
Paul Watson wrote: I don't like to be told to base my morals on something I have rejected (though not wholly of course.) You have just demonstrated my point. Non-religious people don't like having religious morals shoved down their throat, even if they are good morals. "Thou shalt not kill? I don't believe in God, so it's okay for me to kill." Somewhat of an exageration, but you see the point behind it.
"My brother says 'Hello'... So hurray for speech therapy!" -Emo Phillips
Kevnar wrote: Non-religious people don't like having religious morals shoved down their throat, even if they are good morals. I reject the forcing down my throat part, not the moral. I reject the methods of Christianity (fear, one true path, fear, fear, fear), not it's teachings. Kevnar wrote: "Thou shalt not kill? I don't believe in God, so it's okay for me to kill." Somewhat of an exageration, but you see the point behind it. Any person of any belief who believes that has more important problems than his afterlife. His logic is screwed up and is being a rebel without a cause. I cannot speak for others but I do not think like that.
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaPaul Watson wrote: "The Labia [cinema]... ...was opened by Princess Labia in May 1949..." Christian Graus wrote: See, I told you it was a nice name for a girl...
-
Michael A. Barnhart wrote: I did not take it that way. What I read was if you are not religous please base your morals on religious principles. I personally do not feel this is stuffing religion down your throat. It is just asking to have moral values based on something static rather than relativist judgments. See, Chris? This guy got it.
"My brother says 'Hello'... So hurray for speech therapy!" -Emo Phillips
Kevnar wrote: See, Chris? This guy got it. LOL, because Michael A. Barnhart has faith, that is why. Just been reading your other replies and I realise now that your essay was to who you have now explained, not just to everyone. You need to make that clearer in your essay, or damned souls like Chris and I will pick it up and think you are talking to us :-D
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaPaul Watson wrote: "The Labia [cinema]... ...was opened by Princess Labia in May 1949..." Christian Graus wrote: See, I told you it was a nice name for a girl...
-
Paul Watson wrote: I feel one can have very good morals without any religion in ones life I agree. As I said above, man was created with an inate sense of right and wrong, regardless of what faith he attests to. Anyone can know and do good. Anyone can know and do evil. It's their choice. My belief is that judgement day will be more about matching one's deeds up with one's conscience. If you know what is right, and didn't do it, you have sinned. This would be true whether there is a God or not. (Of course I also believe that if it wasn't for God, we'd still be single-celled organisms swimming in a primordial soup, if that. Our design is too perfect to be accidental. That's a whole other debate though.)
"My brother says 'Hello'... So hurray for speech therapy!" -Emo Phillips
Kevnar wrote: It's their choice. My belief is that judgement day will be more about matching one's deeds up with one's conscience. If you know what is right, and didn't do it, you have sinned. This would be true whether there is a God or not Indeed, exactly what I believe. Kevnar wrote: Our design is too perfect to be accidental Only because you believe God made humanity in his image and so must be perfect. Or do you really believe barring that, that we are perfect?
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaPaul Watson wrote: "The Labia [cinema]... ...was opened by Princess Labia in May 1949..." Christian Graus wrote: See, I told you it was a nice name for a girl...
-
Kevnar wrote: See, Chris? This guy got it. LOL, because Michael A. Barnhart has faith, that is why. Just been reading your other replies and I realise now that your essay was to who you have now explained, not just to everyone. You need to make that clearer in your essay, or damned souls like Chris and I will pick it up and think you are talking to us :-D
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaPaul Watson wrote: "The Labia [cinema]... ...was opened by Princess Labia in May 1949..." Christian Graus wrote: See, I told you it was a nice name for a girl...
I wasn't saying he agreed with me. I was saying he understood what I was essentially trying to say. The writing was for everyone. I'm not one to sit around "preaching to the converted".
"My brother says 'Hello'... So hurray for speech therapy!" -Emo Phillips
-
Nor is there a static or absolute base of morals in religion as a whole. There are way too many variants, so [edit]greatest[/edit] common denominator of all of them is probably very close to zero. Chris Richardson Programmers find all sorts of ingenious ways to screw ourselves over. - Tim Smith
As a Christian myself I tend to agree. What many Christians perceive as "moral" is strongly influenced by society, history and our individual background, as well as our varied interpretations of the Bible in its many translations and interpretations. If this were not the case, why are there so many Christian denominations? Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk
"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia GraeschTrouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++
-
Well I believe that its not something that is forced apon everyone.. Yes it is well known. I don't see any problem with Christ/Christian themes in Christmas, yes I am a Christian, but what would be in place of it? A Godless celebration.. supporting atheism, which would be supporting one religion over another. Kevnar wrote: Doing right by one another usually requires self-denial. People are lazy and ignorant. There are many youth that are taught religious teachings in one demnomination in NC (United Methodist), this past youth event Pilgrimage there was an attendance of 5770 youth. -Steven
By reading this message you are held fully responsible for any of the mispelln's or grammer, issues, found on, codeproject.com.
For those who were wondering, actual (Linux) Penguins were harmed in creating this message.
Visit Ltpb.8m.com
404Browser (Efficient, Fast, Secure Web Browser): 404Browser.comSteven Hicks wrote: I don't see any problem with Christ/Christian themes in Christmas, yes I am a Christian, but what would be in place of it? A Godless celebration.. supporting atheism, which would be supporting one religion over another. Well spotted and so very true! Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk
"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia GraeschTrouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++
-
Steven Hicks wrote: I don't see any problem with Christ/Christian themes in Christmas, yes I am a Christian, but what would be in place of it? A Godless celebration.. supporting atheism, which would be supporting one religion over another. Well spotted and so very true! Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk
"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia GraeschTrouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++
Thanks -Steven
By reading this message you are held fully responsible for any of the mispelln's or grammer, issues, found on, codeproject.com.
For those who were wondering, actual (Linux) Penguins were harmed in creating this message.
Visit Ltpb.8m.com
404Browser (Efficient, Fast, Secure Web Browser): 404Browser.com -
Thanks -Steven
By reading this message you are held fully responsible for any of the mispelln's or grammer, issues, found on, codeproject.com.
For those who were wondering, actual (Linux) Penguins were harmed in creating this message.
Visit Ltpb.8m.com
404Browser (Efficient, Fast, Secure Web Browser): 404Browser.comAnytime. :) Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk
"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia GraeschTrouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++