"Challenge to virgin birth raises uproar" - N&O
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Challenge to virgin birth raises uproar [^] I read that and it sounds like to me that the guy doesn't have much prove, and a lot of sources are against him. What are other's view on this subject? -Steven
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404Browser (Efficient, Fast, Secure Web Browser): 404Browser.comI don't get the supernatural part of christianity. Has it ever occurred to you that all these stories are metaphoric? :) A virgin giving birth is just a fancy way of saying "That woman and child are something special". I can accept that people believe in the message christianity offers. But believing in the supernatural stuff is just mind boggling. Does God have to be a sentient and powerful being for christianity to work? -- Only in a world this shitty could you even try to say these were innocent people and keep a straight face.
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I don't get the supernatural part of christianity. Has it ever occurred to you that all these stories are metaphoric? :) A virgin giving birth is just a fancy way of saying "That woman and child are something special". I can accept that people believe in the message christianity offers. But believing in the supernatural stuff is just mind boggling. Does God have to be a sentient and powerful being for christianity to work? -- Only in a world this shitty could you even try to say these were innocent people and keep a straight face.
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Has it ever occurred to you that all these stories are metaphoric? Sure. AFAIK, that's a moderately important concept in Christianity. Of course, when you're talking about an Omnipotent God, there's no reason why his communication of the metaphor can't involve real people and events. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Does God have to be a sentient and powerful being for christianity to work? It's a fairly vital concept, i would say. Is there a problem with it?
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
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Challenge to virgin birth raises uproar [^] I read that and it sounds like to me that the guy doesn't have much prove, and a lot of sources are against him. What are other's view on this subject? -Steven
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404Browser (Efficient, Fast, Secure Web Browser): 404Browser.comHow tempting isn't it, to pick and choose what you'll accept and what you will not - a "religion buffet" so to speak. And as creatures with a free will, it is certainly within our ability to do so. Of course, even children eventually abandon the desert-only table, memories of past belly-aches teaching the value of the less-appealing meat, potatoes, and greens. I can respect a man whose beliefs differ from my own. I cannot respect a man who will not respect his own beliefs.**
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"
**
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Has it ever occurred to you that all these stories are metaphoric? Sure. AFAIK, that's a moderately important concept in Christianity. Of course, when you're talking about an Omnipotent God, there's no reason why his communication of the metaphor can't involve real people and events. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Does God have to be a sentient and powerful being for christianity to work? It's a fairly vital concept, i would say. Is there a problem with it?
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
Shog9 wrote: It's a fairly vital concept, i would say. Is there a problem with it? Well, I don't know actually. Since I'm not religious, I can't answer the question myself. I'm trying to find out whether christian beliefs can be based on good will instead of god will so to speak. Maybe it's easier to communicate the message using words of god instead of words of man? (A question which I think applies to all religions). Personally, I have a problem with omnipotent beings. I believe what I see, everything else is unproven until seen. :) My theory on religion is that the message it communicates, stem from a consensus on common sense agreed upon by a group of people a very long time ago. I also believe that the power of communicating way back was limited, therefore they amplified their words with gods, miraculous events, etc. I've been asked "What if there is a god? Would you be a believer then?". I'd like to turn the question around: "What if there is no god? Would it break your world?". I think it's hazardous to put a belief in something which you really don't have proof for1 which may some day turn out to be false. Logically, it would be better if you had a backup plan - believe in the word rather than the god. :) 1 Yes, you may have been given signs as proofs. But how can you be sure that it's not your brain playing tricks with you? -- Only in a world this shitty could you even try to say these were innocent people and keep a straight face.
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Challenge to virgin birth raises uproar [^] I read that and it sounds like to me that the guy doesn't have much prove, and a lot of sources are against him. What are other's view on this subject? -Steven
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404Browser (Efficient, Fast, Secure Web Browser): 404Browser.comThe truth is out there[^]... still bored...
he he he. I like it in the kitchen! - Marc Clifton (on taking the heat when being flamed) Awasu v0.4a[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
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Shog9 wrote: It's a fairly vital concept, i would say. Is there a problem with it? Well, I don't know actually. Since I'm not religious, I can't answer the question myself. I'm trying to find out whether christian beliefs can be based on good will instead of god will so to speak. Maybe it's easier to communicate the message using words of god instead of words of man? (A question which I think applies to all religions). Personally, I have a problem with omnipotent beings. I believe what I see, everything else is unproven until seen. :) My theory on religion is that the message it communicates, stem from a consensus on common sense agreed upon by a group of people a very long time ago. I also believe that the power of communicating way back was limited, therefore they amplified their words with gods, miraculous events, etc. I've been asked "What if there is a god? Would you be a believer then?". I'd like to turn the question around: "What if there is no god? Would it break your world?". I think it's hazardous to put a belief in something which you really don't have proof for1 which may some day turn out to be false. Logically, it would be better if you had a backup plan - believe in the word rather than the god. :) 1 Yes, you may have been given signs as proofs. But how can you be sure that it's not your brain playing tricks with you? -- Only in a world this shitty could you even try to say these were innocent people and keep a straight face.
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Yes, you may have been given signs as proofs. But how can you be sure that it's not your brain playing tricks with you? I'll deal with this one first, sorry 'bout the backwards reply. Simple answer: you can't. In all seriousness though, you really can't be sure if what you see when leaving your house in the morning really isn't your brain playing tricks on you either. We *are* slaves of our own perception, and though this is easier to see (and condemn) in those with certain mental afflictions and/or a taste for hallucinogens, it affects us all. I look at a wall and say it is orange - you look at the same wall and also say it is orange, but there is no proof the colors we see are perceived at all the same to the both of us, merely that we have both learned to call it by the same name. We believe what our senses tell us in order to survive - as children, we must learn to interpret them without prior knowledge, and thus comes the "innocence of youth". But can we ever be completely certain? Experience tells us no, our perception can be easily tricked and misled. And yet, we must believe, for uncertainty would cripple us. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I'd like to turn the question around: "What if there is no god? Would it break your world?". Well, thank you for acknowledging that it *is* my world...:-O *ahem* I have no shortage of faults, arrogance not the least of them. There is certainly a possibility of my losing conviction of the existance of God, though i pray it does not happen. Would it break me? Hard to say... whether my life ends in a suicidal killing spree or after many years spent with no goal greater than a beer on Friday, i would say it was a waste of what God has given me. Without the concept of Life as a Gift, i would be forced to either find other motivation, or accept life as meaningless. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I also believe that the power of communicating way back was limited, therefore they amplified their words with gods, miraculous events, etc. I wonder... are we *that* much better at communicating today? How many people do *you* know, who still can't see the forest for the trees, as it were? How often isn't it enough that *someone* has obtained proof for it to be Truth? How could it be otherwise? Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I'm trying to find out whether christian beliefs can be based on good wi
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How tempting isn't it, to pick and choose what you'll accept and what you will not - a "religion buffet" so to speak. And as creatures with a free will, it is certainly within our ability to do so. Of course, even children eventually abandon the desert-only table, memories of past belly-aches teaching the value of the less-appealing meat, potatoes, and greens. I can respect a man whose beliefs differ from my own. I cannot respect a man who will not respect his own beliefs.**
"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?"
**
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
Shog9 wrote: How tempting isn't it, to pick and choose what you'll accept and what you will not first, no offense intended... but how do christians reconcile things like Leviticus (animal sacrifices, unclean women, etc) with the 'you can't pick and choose' idea ? if you can drop the prescriptions on animal sacrifice, why can't you interpret the adma/eve story in a new way? if you can drop some of the OT because it doesn't fit with modern life, why can't you drop it all? -c
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You either believe or you don't, but I can't see a prominent church leader not believing in the virgin birth, etc. and still believe in his faith.
Jason Henderson
start page ; articles henderson is coming henderson is an opponent's worst nightmare * googlism *Jason Henderson wrote: You either believe or you don't, but I can't see a prominent church leader not believing in the virgin birth, etc. and still believe in his faith. I disagree. He is actually saying what lot's of other church leaders and theologians already believe. Most of them just can't be bothered telling the congregations that. It is very difficult also these days to find anyone at the top who believes in the resurrection as well. When Joe Sprague was here in NZ in 1999 I went to one of his combined services out of interest, and it was refreshing to see a Bishop who was honest. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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There was this old man who took his sick daughter to see the doc. The doc took him aside and told him, "Look here sir, but your lil girl is carrying!". The man replied angrily, "You stupid fool, that's not possible. No man has touched my daughter". The doc runs out fast to the window and looks out at the sky. The irritated old man asks him what the hell he is doing. And the doc replies, "The last time this happened, a bright star appeared in the east"
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
ROTFL !!! Excellent. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Shog9 wrote: How tempting isn't it, to pick and choose what you'll accept and what you will not first, no offense intended... but how do christians reconcile things like Leviticus (animal sacrifices, unclean women, etc) with the 'you can't pick and choose' idea ? if you can drop the prescriptions on animal sacrifice, why can't you interpret the adma/eve story in a new way? if you can drop some of the OT because it doesn't fit with modern life, why can't you drop it all? -c
I'm not the droid you're looking for.
Chris Losinger wrote: first, no offense intended... If i was gonna take offense, i'd have done it long before now... ;) Chris Losinger wrote: how do christians reconcile things like Leviticus Leviticus is, as you stated, OT. The teachings therein formed much of Judaism at one time, and thus the foundation Christianity is built on. However, they are not the teachings of Christ - they were the laws laid out for governing the nation of Israel as a people set apart by God. Christ opened salvation for all peoples, first the Jews, and then the rest - although the laws of Moses were and for the most part are respected, many are not required, as Christianity is not focused on maintaining a temporal government. This is not a trivial issue, by any means - there was great conflict in the early days of the Christian Church, and in some areas to this day. Early Christians were required to convert to Judaism prior to being accepted as Christians. One of the great influences Paul the Evangelist had over the early Church was to convince them to allow gentiles - those not circumcised and compliant with the laws of Judaism - into their fellowship. To delve further: many of the OT laws and rituals - such as animal sacrifices - foreshadowed Christ's life and death, as an atonement for transgressions. A lamb, say, was sacrificed, not because God would accept the life of an animal to redeem the life of a man, but as a reminder of the promise that God *would* send atonement, that one more worthy than any of us would give his life in exchange for our own. Therefore, after Christ's death, the sacrifice of animals is replaced with the Lord's Supper, a reminder, not only that we now *have* been redeemed, but also of the cost.
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
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Shog9 wrote: How tempting isn't it, to pick and choose what you'll accept and what you will not first, no offense intended... but how do christians reconcile things like Leviticus (animal sacrifices, unclean women, etc) with the 'you can't pick and choose' idea ? if you can drop the prescriptions on animal sacrifice, why can't you interpret the adma/eve story in a new way? if you can drop some of the OT because it doesn't fit with modern life, why can't you drop it all? -c
I'm not the droid you're looking for.
Chris Losinger wrote: if you can drop the prescriptions on animal sacrifice Chris Losinger wrote: if you can drop some of the OT because it doesn't fit with modern life No, you cannot. However, the OT was presented as a picture of things to come. Jesus came to fulfill those things, His death replaces the animal sacrifice of the OT, salvation fulfills the type presented by the Sabbath day, etc. Not dropped, made complete. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Chris Losinger wrote: first, no offense intended... If i was gonna take offense, i'd have done it long before now... ;) Chris Losinger wrote: how do christians reconcile things like Leviticus Leviticus is, as you stated, OT. The teachings therein formed much of Judaism at one time, and thus the foundation Christianity is built on. However, they are not the teachings of Christ - they were the laws laid out for governing the nation of Israel as a people set apart by God. Christ opened salvation for all peoples, first the Jews, and then the rest - although the laws of Moses were and for the most part are respected, many are not required, as Christianity is not focused on maintaining a temporal government. This is not a trivial issue, by any means - there was great conflict in the early days of the Christian Church, and in some areas to this day. Early Christians were required to convert to Judaism prior to being accepted as Christians. One of the great influences Paul the Evangelist had over the early Church was to convince them to allow gentiles - those not circumcised and compliant with the laws of Judaism - into their fellowship. To delve further: many of the OT laws and rituals - such as animal sacrifices - foreshadowed Christ's life and death, as an atonement for transgressions. A lamb, say, was sacrificed, not because God would accept the life of an animal to redeem the life of a man, but as a reminder of the promise that God *would* send atonement, that one more worthy than any of us would give his life in exchange for our own. Therefore, after Christ's death, the sacrifice of animals is replaced with the Lord's Supper, a reminder, not only that we now *have* been redeemed, but also of the cost.
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
Shog9 wrote: One of the great influences Paul the Evangelist had over the early Church was to convince them to allow gentiles - those not circumcised and compliant with the laws of Judaism - into their fellowship. Not wanting to contradict you and all, but it was Peter in Acts 10 who discovered that Gentiles could be saved, and told the church in Acts 11. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
The truth is out there[^]... still bored...
he he he. I like it in the kitchen! - Marc Clifton (on taking the heat when being flamed) Awasu v0.4a[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
That is *so* wrong... :laugh:
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
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Shog9 wrote: One of the great influences Paul the Evangelist had over the early Church was to convince them to allow gentiles - those not circumcised and compliant with the laws of Judaism - into their fellowship. Not wanting to contradict you and all, but it was Peter in Acts 10 who discovered that Gentiles could be saved, and told the church in Acts 11. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Jason Henderson wrote: You either believe or you don't, but I can't see a prominent church leader not believing in the virgin birth, etc. and still believe in his faith. I disagree. He is actually saying what lot's of other church leaders and theologians already believe. Most of them just can't be bothered telling the congregations that. It is very difficult also these days to find anyone at the top who believes in the resurrection as well. When Joe Sprague was here in NZ in 1999 I went to one of his combined services out of interest, and it was refreshing to see a Bishop who was honest. :-) Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Let us all remember that Bishop Sprague was deemed a heretic by the church for his beliefs. In fact if people who are to be ordained say they do not believe in the virgin birth or the resurrection they are not allowed to be ordained. And what are we saying about a God who cannot change physics and/or the phyical body? My question is if you cannot live with the virgin birth or the resurrection, how do you live with the fact that we don't know where God came from? This is where faith comes into the equation. Without faith we are constantly asking questions that are far beyond our comprehension and things that we will never be able to know.
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ROTFL !!! Excellent. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: ROTFL !!! Excellent. Hmmmmm. Hey Dave, you seeing all this??? I think CG's very determined this time not to lose his cool ;-) Nish
Author of the romantic comedy Summer Love and Some more Cricket [New Win] Review by Shog9 Click here for review[NW]
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Chris Losinger wrote: if you can drop the prescriptions on animal sacrifice Chris Losinger wrote: if you can drop some of the OT because it doesn't fit with modern life No, you cannot. However, the OT was presented as a picture of things to come. Jesus came to fulfill those things, His death replaces the animal sacrifice of the OT, salvation fulfills the type presented by the Sabbath day, etc. Not dropped, made complete. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: His death replaces but where is the list of OT things that were deemed Does Not Apply ? who wrote the list ? -c
I'm not the droid you're looking for.
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Chris Losinger wrote: first, no offense intended... If i was gonna take offense, i'd have done it long before now... ;) Chris Losinger wrote: how do christians reconcile things like Leviticus Leviticus is, as you stated, OT. The teachings therein formed much of Judaism at one time, and thus the foundation Christianity is built on. However, they are not the teachings of Christ - they were the laws laid out for governing the nation of Israel as a people set apart by God. Christ opened salvation for all peoples, first the Jews, and then the rest - although the laws of Moses were and for the most part are respected, many are not required, as Christianity is not focused on maintaining a temporal government. This is not a trivial issue, by any means - there was great conflict in the early days of the Christian Church, and in some areas to this day. Early Christians were required to convert to Judaism prior to being accepted as Christians. One of the great influences Paul the Evangelist had over the early Church was to convince them to allow gentiles - those not circumcised and compliant with the laws of Judaism - into their fellowship. To delve further: many of the OT laws and rituals - such as animal sacrifices - foreshadowed Christ's life and death, as an atonement for transgressions. A lamb, say, was sacrificed, not because God would accept the life of an animal to redeem the life of a man, but as a reminder of the promise that God *would* send atonement, that one more worthy than any of us would give his life in exchange for our own. Therefore, after Christ's death, the sacrifice of animals is replaced with the Lord's Supper, a reminder, not only that we now *have* been redeemed, but also of the cost.
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
Shog9 wrote: sacrifice of animals is replaced with the Lord's Supper ok. what about: "And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people." where does the NT remove this?
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Let us all remember that Bishop Sprague was deemed a heretic by the church for his beliefs. In fact if people who are to be ordained say they do not believe in the virgin birth or the resurrection they are not allowed to be ordained. And what are we saying about a God who cannot change physics and/or the phyical body? My question is if you cannot live with the virgin birth or the resurrection, how do you live with the fact that we don't know where God came from? This is where faith comes into the equation. Without faith we are constantly asking questions that are far beyond our comprehension and things that we will never be able to know.
Britt Fisher wrote: Let us all remember that Bishop Sprague was deemed a heretic by the church for his beliefs. Yes he is in good campany for a methodist, as John Wesley was also deemed a heretic by the parochial clergy. Britt Fisher wrote: And what are we saying about a God who cannot change physics and/or the physical body? No they are not saying that God can't only that God probably didn't in this case. Evidence points to the limited Gospels used by the RC and RC derived religions being chosen for appearing to include similarities with the popular pagan beliefs of the time. Britt Fisher wrote: My question is if you cannot live with the virgin birth or the resurrection, how do you live with the fact that we don't know where God came from? Since Sprague can have faith without believing in the Virgin Birth and Resurrection does this not show his faith is indeed greater than those that must use belief in the supernatural for proof ? Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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In reality, Stephen was the first evangelist to the Gentiles and he was the first martyr because of it
Interesting. The very nature of Stephens address makes me think he is talking to Jews. Why do you think otherwise ? ( Not arguing, interested ). Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002