"Challenge to virgin birth raises uproar" - N&O
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Christian Graus wrote: His death replaces but where is the list of OT things that were deemed Does Not Apply ? who wrote the list ? -c
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Chris Losinger wrote: but where is the list of OT things that were deemed Does Not Apply ? Somewhere in Romans from memory, or probably Hebrews. Chris Losinger wrote: who wrote the list ? God. :P Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
'What God has made clean, let no man call unclean'. :-) The basic principle is presented in the NT also, that is, that the OT is full of laws which Jesus came to fulfill, sending the Holy Spirit to write the law on the fleshy tables of our hearts. In other words, the OT was a legal document, the NT is about the love of God motivating us to do good, so we do not need lengthy lists of rules. Paul specifically states that if anyone wants to try to keep to any the Law, they must keep it all. He also specifically stated that this was not possible for any man. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: we do not need lengthy lists of rules so, if i were a practicing Christian, i could disbelieve the Adam/Eve story just as easily and legally as i disbelieve the ban on laying down with 'unclean' women? you do realize that if we were talking about the STL, handwaving and "because god said so" wouldn't fly, right? -c
I'm not the droid you're looking for.
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Christian Graus wrote: we do not need lengthy lists of rules so, if i were a practicing Christian, i could disbelieve the Adam/Eve story just as easily and legally as i disbelieve the ban on laying down with 'unclean' women? you do realize that if we were talking about the STL, handwaving and "because god said so" wouldn't fly, right? -c
I'm not the droid you're looking for.
Chris Losinger wrote: so, if i were a practicing Christian, i could disbelieve the Adam/Eve story just as easily and legally as i disbelieve the ban on laying down with 'unclean' women? No, you've missed the point. The point is not that the OT became untrue, but that it served it's purpose. It's not that the Law was bad, it's that we could not keep it, and the Bible says the Law was a 'schoolmaster to lead us to Christ'. The Law set the scene, but it was not the end of God's plan. The Bible also says that everything that happened in the OT was for our example, for the benefit of people who are today filled with the Holy Spirit. Chris Losinger wrote: you do realize that if we were talking about the STL, handwaving and "because god said so" wouldn't fly, right? LOL, of course. More Stepanov said so would be analagous. How interested are you in this ? Would you like me to sit down and grab a list of scriptures that explains the situation ? I've paraphrased about 6 already. Basically, the OT Law was given to a specific group of people at a specific time. We are not those people, this is not that time, and it was given as a precursor to something far better which is available to you and me today. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Chris Losinger wrote: so, if i were a practicing Christian, i could disbelieve the Adam/Eve story just as easily and legally as i disbelieve the ban on laying down with 'unclean' women? No, you've missed the point. The point is not that the OT became untrue, but that it served it's purpose. It's not that the Law was bad, it's that we could not keep it, and the Bible says the Law was a 'schoolmaster to lead us to Christ'. The Law set the scene, but it was not the end of God's plan. The Bible also says that everything that happened in the OT was for our example, for the benefit of people who are today filled with the Holy Spirit. Chris Losinger wrote: you do realize that if we were talking about the STL, handwaving and "because god said so" wouldn't fly, right? LOL, of course. More Stepanov said so would be analagous. How interested are you in this ? Would you like me to sit down and grab a list of scriptures that explains the situation ? I've paraphrased about 6 already. Basically, the OT Law was given to a specific group of people at a specific time. We are not those people, this is not that time, and it was given as a precursor to something far better which is available to you and me today. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: Basically, the OT Law was given to a specific group of people at a specific time. We are not those people, this is not that time, and it was given as a precursor to something far better which is available to you and me today. ok. got it. like Win 3.1 -c
I'm not the droid you're looking for.
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Shog9 wrote: sacrifice of animals is replaced with the Lord's Supper ok. what about: "And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people." where does the NT remove this?
I'm not the droid you're looking for.
Chris Losinger wrote: what about: 'Morning, Chris - this might sound like a cop-out, and you can certainly take it that way, but... There is no list. There is example. OT law laid out hundreds of rules on cleanliness, along with procedures for becoming ceremonially clean. These served several purposes: they set the Israelites apart, they were a constant reminder of how utterly impossible it is to be pure in God's eyes, and in many instances, they are beneficial from a public health perspective. Neither Judaism nor Christianity began as works-based religions. The Law was put in place as a mirror, showing us clearly how far short we fall in God's sight. The rituals of sacrificing doves, etc. in restoring ceremonial cleanliness are reminders of our need for redemption. Christ, in his life, pointed out the foolishness of becoming slaves to the Law. He communed with sinners, healed on the Sabbath, ate without properly washing his hands. He put the commandments in perspective, noting: "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." Not that the Law can be ignored because of this; rather, it should be seen for what it is. The Law cannot save, only condemn. But the Christian, living by the grace of God, should keep the law as a sign of love and respect for God, so long as doing so is not seen as a works-based salvation. ...and i'm sure you can think of a few reasons *other* than OT laws to avoid period sex... :rolleyes:
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
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Shog9 wrote: One of the great influences Paul the Evangelist had over the early Church was to convince them to allow gentiles - those not circumcised and compliant with the laws of Judaism - into their fellowship. Not wanting to contradict you and all, but it was Peter in Acts 10 who discovered that Gentiles could be saved, and told the church in Acts 11. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: Not wanting to contradict you and all Oh, please do, at least when i'm flat out wrong as in this case. :-O
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
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Christian Graus wrote: Basically, the OT Law was given to a specific group of people at a specific time. We are not those people, this is not that time, and it was given as a precursor to something far better which is available to you and me today. ok. got it. like Win 3.1 -c
I'm not the droid you're looking for.
Chris Losinger wrote: like Win 3.1 LOL - precisely. It was the best thing going for folks back then, but that does not mean we'd want to use it now. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Yes, you may have been given signs as proofs. But how can you be sure that it's not your brain playing tricks with you? I'll deal with this one first, sorry 'bout the backwards reply. Simple answer: you can't. In all seriousness though, you really can't be sure if what you see when leaving your house in the morning really isn't your brain playing tricks on you either. We *are* slaves of our own perception, and though this is easier to see (and condemn) in those with certain mental afflictions and/or a taste for hallucinogens, it affects us all. I look at a wall and say it is orange - you look at the same wall and also say it is orange, but there is no proof the colors we see are perceived at all the same to the both of us, merely that we have both learned to call it by the same name. We believe what our senses tell us in order to survive - as children, we must learn to interpret them without prior knowledge, and thus comes the "innocence of youth". But can we ever be completely certain? Experience tells us no, our perception can be easily tricked and misled. And yet, we must believe, for uncertainty would cripple us. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I'd like to turn the question around: "What if there is no god? Would it break your world?". Well, thank you for acknowledging that it *is* my world...:-O *ahem* I have no shortage of faults, arrogance not the least of them. There is certainly a possibility of my losing conviction of the existance of God, though i pray it does not happen. Would it break me? Hard to say... whether my life ends in a suicidal killing spree or after many years spent with no goal greater than a beer on Friday, i would say it was a waste of what God has given me. Without the concept of Life as a Gift, i would be forced to either find other motivation, or accept life as meaningless. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I also believe that the power of communicating way back was limited, therefore they amplified their words with gods, miraculous events, etc. I wonder... are we *that* much better at communicating today? How many people do *you* know, who still can't see the forest for the trees, as it were? How often isn't it enough that *someone* has obtained proof for it to be Truth? How could it be otherwise? Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I'm trying to find out whether christian beliefs can be based on good wi
Shog9 wrote: I look at a wall and say it is orange - you look at the same wall and also say it is orange, but there is no proof the colors we see are perceived at all the same to the both of us, merely that we have both learned to call it by the same name. This is sort of my point. It is possible to establish that a wall is oranged based on well defined laws. Orange for instance has a specific spectral pattern which is easy to measure. So, the orange wall is very much tangible. A vision or a calling is not tangible. It is not possible for me to experience what another person has experienced. I used to be atheist, but after an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, I think I'm agnostic now. Mostly because logically you cannot disregard anything until you have proof that it does not exist. And vice versa of course. I guess it's a way of structuring my view of the world - leave out the blanks until someone/something fill them in :) Shog9 wrote: Without the concept of Life as a Gift, i would be forced to either find other motivation, or accept life as meaningless. Now there's a question! What is the meaning of life? Does it have to have meaning? Before we were conscious beings (say a million years ago or so), did life have a meaning? I think I'll never find out, so I'll just settle for enjoying life as much as possible, eventhough it stinks every now and then. :| Shog9 wrote: I wonder... are we *that* much better at communicating today? At least we have developed better means of communication. We can read and write, we can watch and listen. We're communicating right now, are we not? I believe the bible, for instance, was written in such a way that all the key points could not be mistaken. Compare these sentences "Do not drink the water, you may become sick." and "Do not drink the water. If you do, you will die a most horrible death as your belly will burst and your guts will fall down on the ground, leaving a bloody mess". Which one would get your fullest attention? I think that 1500-2000 years ago, man had not yet developed logical skills as we have today (except for some greek geniuses). I think it was hard to communicate using "normal words" and get the message across the table. I believe the horrible and magical things in the bible were added because it would get the readers attention. Shog9 wrote: How often isn't it enough that *someone* has obtained pr
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Chris Losinger wrote: what about: 'Morning, Chris - this might sound like a cop-out, and you can certainly take it that way, but... There is no list. There is example. OT law laid out hundreds of rules on cleanliness, along with procedures for becoming ceremonially clean. These served several purposes: they set the Israelites apart, they were a constant reminder of how utterly impossible it is to be pure in God's eyes, and in many instances, they are beneficial from a public health perspective. Neither Judaism nor Christianity began as works-based religions. The Law was put in place as a mirror, showing us clearly how far short we fall in God's sight. The rituals of sacrificing doves, etc. in restoring ceremonial cleanliness are reminders of our need for redemption. Christ, in his life, pointed out the foolishness of becoming slaves to the Law. He communed with sinners, healed on the Sabbath, ate without properly washing his hands. He put the commandments in perspective, noting: "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'? For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." Not that the Law can be ignored because of this; rather, it should be seen for what it is. The Law cannot save, only condemn. But the Christian, living by the grace of God, should keep the law as a sign of love and respect for God, so long as doing so is not seen as a works-based salvation. ...and i'm sure you can think of a few reasons *other* than OT laws to avoid period sex... :rolleyes:
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
hmm. fascinating stuff. once a year i learn a little bit about christianity. in previous years it was via the Discovery channel when they'd show endless Jesumentaries. this year, i chose CP. :) Shog9 wrote: and i'm sure you can think of a few reasons *other* than OT laws to avoid period sex as my grandma once said (about this very topic), "some men like a little sauce with their meat". :~ -c
I'm not the droid you're looking for.
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Shog9 wrote: I look at a wall and say it is orange - you look at the same wall and also say it is orange, but there is no proof the colors we see are perceived at all the same to the both of us, merely that we have both learned to call it by the same name. This is sort of my point. It is possible to establish that a wall is oranged based on well defined laws. Orange for instance has a specific spectral pattern which is easy to measure. So, the orange wall is very much tangible. A vision or a calling is not tangible. It is not possible for me to experience what another person has experienced. I used to be atheist, but after an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, I think I'm agnostic now. Mostly because logically you cannot disregard anything until you have proof that it does not exist. And vice versa of course. I guess it's a way of structuring my view of the world - leave out the blanks until someone/something fill them in :) Shog9 wrote: Without the concept of Life as a Gift, i would be forced to either find other motivation, or accept life as meaningless. Now there's a question! What is the meaning of life? Does it have to have meaning? Before we were conscious beings (say a million years ago or so), did life have a meaning? I think I'll never find out, so I'll just settle for enjoying life as much as possible, eventhough it stinks every now and then. :| Shog9 wrote: I wonder... are we *that* much better at communicating today? At least we have developed better means of communication. We can read and write, we can watch and listen. We're communicating right now, are we not? I believe the bible, for instance, was written in such a way that all the key points could not be mistaken. Compare these sentences "Do not drink the water, you may become sick." and "Do not drink the water. If you do, you will die a most horrible death as your belly will burst and your guts will fall down on the ground, leaving a bloody mess". Which one would get your fullest attention? I think that 1500-2000 years ago, man had not yet developed logical skills as we have today (except for some greek geniuses). I think it was hard to communicate using "normal words" and get the message across the table. I believe the horrible and magical things in the bible were added because it would get the readers attention. Shog9 wrote: How often isn't it enough that *someone* has obtained pr
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I think that 1500-2000 years ago, man had not yet developed logical skills as we have today (except for some greek geniuses). Well, i've gotta admit, that sounds a bit wishful. But, perhaps as daily life shapes thought processes, hellenistic greeks were better able to leave daily drudgery to their slaves, thus allowing for a less-direct writing style. That's not quite a total lack of analytical skills though. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Children are born pure and then tainted with life. You need to spend some more time around children... ;) Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Sorry for the late reply, but I'm sort of occupied with being Christmas lazy. For shame! *shog notes, as he breakfasts at 2:30PM* ;P
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
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Christian Graus wrote: Not wanting to contradict you and all Oh, please do, at least when i'm flat out wrong as in this case. :-O
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
*grin* Merry Christmas. The kids have just unwrapped their loot, and now they are fighting over it. I'm working on an article, the wife is cooking breakfast. Merry Christmas, indeed. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Shog9 wrote: I look at a wall and say it is orange - you look at the same wall and also say it is orange, but there is no proof the colors we see are perceived at all the same to the both of us, merely that we have both learned to call it by the same name. This is sort of my point. It is possible to establish that a wall is oranged based on well defined laws. Orange for instance has a specific spectral pattern which is easy to measure. So, the orange wall is very much tangible. A vision or a calling is not tangible. It is not possible for me to experience what another person has experienced. I used to be atheist, but after an interesting conversation with a friend of mine, I think I'm agnostic now. Mostly because logically you cannot disregard anything until you have proof that it does not exist. And vice versa of course. I guess it's a way of structuring my view of the world - leave out the blanks until someone/something fill them in :) Shog9 wrote: Without the concept of Life as a Gift, i would be forced to either find other motivation, or accept life as meaningless. Now there's a question! What is the meaning of life? Does it have to have meaning? Before we were conscious beings (say a million years ago or so), did life have a meaning? I think I'll never find out, so I'll just settle for enjoying life as much as possible, eventhough it stinks every now and then. :| Shog9 wrote: I wonder... are we *that* much better at communicating today? At least we have developed better means of communication. We can read and write, we can watch and listen. We're communicating right now, are we not? I believe the bible, for instance, was written in such a way that all the key points could not be mistaken. Compare these sentences "Do not drink the water, you may become sick." and "Do not drink the water. If you do, you will die a most horrible death as your belly will burst and your guts will fall down on the ground, leaving a bloody mess". Which one would get your fullest attention? I think that 1500-2000 years ago, man had not yet developed logical skills as we have today (except for some greek geniuses). I think it was hard to communicate using "normal words" and get the message across the table. I believe the horrible and magical things in the bible were added because it would get the readers attention. Shog9 wrote: How often isn't it enough that *someone* has obtained pr
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Shog9 wrote: How often isn't it enough that *someone* has obtained proof for it to be Truth? If the proof is verifiable, then the proof is sound. If not, then faith is required, IMHO Or as our Prime Minister Jean Chretien is quoted as saying "A proof is a proof. What kind of proof? It's a proof. A proof is proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it is proven."
CPUA 0x5041 Sonork 100.11743 Chicken Little "So it can now be written in stone as a testament to humanities achievments "PJ did Pi at CP"." Colin Davies Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
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*grin* Merry Christmas. The kids have just unwrapped their loot, and now they are fighting over it. I'm working on an article, the wife is cooking breakfast. Merry Christmas, indeed. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: The kids have just unwrapped their loot, and now they are fighting over it. Merry Christmas, CG :)
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Shog9 wrote: How often isn't it enough that *someone* has obtained proof for it to be Truth? If the proof is verifiable, then the proof is sound. If not, then faith is required, IMHO Or as our Prime Minister Jean Chretien is quoted as saying "A proof is a proof. What kind of proof? It's a proof. A proof is proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it is proven."
CPUA 0x5041 Sonork 100.11743 Chicken Little "So it can now be written in stone as a testament to humanities achievments "PJ did Pi at CP"." Colin Davies Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
PJ Arends wrote: Or as our Prime Minister Jean Chretien is quoted as saying "A proof is a proof. What kind of proof? It's a proof. A proof is proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it is proven." Sounds about right :-D -- Only in a world this shitty could you even try to say these were innocent people and keep a straight face.
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That is *so* wrong... :laugh:
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
Skippy, the rain won't come! [+]
David Wulff wrote: That is *so* wrong... Ya think? :-) Check out the Epistles of Paul. It gets seriously weird... :laugh:
he he he. I like it in the kitchen! - Marc Clifton (on taking the heat when being flamed) Awasu v0.4a[^]: A free RSS reader with support for Code Project.
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Interesting. The very nature of Stephens address makes me think he is talking to Jews. Why do you think otherwise ? ( Not arguing, interested ). Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002if you look at Acts 7, you will se that he is addressing the Jews, but is speaking about their lack of wanting to allow the uncircumsized into the church, he instigates this by calling them uncircumsized in hear and mind. Stephen realized that the Gentiles are able to come into the church as well as the Jews
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Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Shog9 wrote: How often isn't it enough that *someone* has obtained proof for it to be Truth? If the proof is verifiable, then the proof is sound. If not, then faith is required, IMHO Or as our Prime Minister Jean Chretien is quoted as saying "A proof is a proof. What kind of proof? It's a proof. A proof is proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it is proven."
CPUA 0x5041 Sonork 100.11743 Chicken Little "So it can now be written in stone as a testament to humanities achievments "PJ did Pi at CP"." Colin Davies Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
Sounds like GW Bush. ;) BW "If you enjoy what you do, you'll never work another day in your life." - Confucius
