Objections to Christianity
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If I touch my desk, I feel a desk, not "god"... I can feel my shirt... I can feel the chair I'm sitting in... I can feel this keyboard... I can't feel "god". You're confusing sense of touch with emotion, hence my clarification in a prior post:
Ian Shlasko wrote:
Can you see, hear, smell, taste, or feel (As in touch, not as in emotion) "god"?
Try again.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
So your entire argument is "you still do not get it". No, I don't get why you would base your life on a fairy tale. No, I don't get why you need an imaginary man in the sky to justify your life. No, I don't get whatever drugs you're taking that cause you to hallucinate a deity. If you're going to try to recruit a technically-minded atheist into your cult, try making a scientific argument. It won't work, but you might gain a little respect for the effort.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
I gave you proof. You just ignore it. Ignoring it does not make it go away. Using you "logic", for me to prove there is a God I would have to disprove any proof you have that He does not exist. So, in your words, "the burden of [no] proof is on you."
ryanb31 wrote:
I gave you proof.
What: Everything around you is evidence of a God? And: You, yourself, are evidence that a God exists? You mean all this 'stuff' (which includes me) had to be brought into existence by a God?
ryanb31 wrote:
You just ignore it. Ignoring it does not make it go away.
I don't ignore it, I interpret it differently. To me, the great "I AM" is merely an "IT IS".
ryanb31 wrote:
Using you "logic", for me to prove there is a God I would have to disprove any proof you have that He does not exist.
OK. I accept that you are unable prove that a God exists.
Be dogmatic, not thoughtful. It's easier, and you get bumper stickers.- Anon.
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So your entire argument is "you still do not get it". No, I don't get why you would base your life on a fairy tale. No, I don't get why you need an imaginary man in the sky to justify your life. No, I don't get whatever drugs you're taking that cause you to hallucinate a deity. If you're going to try to recruit a technically-minded atheist into your cult, try making a scientific argument. It won't work, but you might gain a little respect for the effort.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)You already provided the scientific argument. Science cannot explain how nothing turned to something. So, clearly relying solely on science is not the right answer. Remember, it was only several hundred years ago that science claimed the world to be flat, or the sun to revolve around the earth. Science is incredible and awesome but history has proven time and time again that science does not always have the right answer, even where there is a so called scientific "proof." It is still limited by man's intelligence. One of the greatest scientists to ever live, Einstein, also knew there was a God. He said "I want to know how God created this world." Now, his view of God is very different than mine; however, he had enough wisdom to go along with his intelligence to realize that there had to be a God.
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You already provided the scientific argument. Science cannot explain how nothing turned to something. So, clearly relying solely on science is not the right answer. Remember, it was only several hundred years ago that science claimed the world to be flat, or the sun to revolve around the earth. Science is incredible and awesome but history has proven time and time again that science does not always have the right answer, even where there is a so called scientific "proof." It is still limited by man's intelligence. One of the greatest scientists to ever live, Einstein, also knew there was a God. He said "I want to know how God created this world." Now, his view of God is very different than mine; however, he had enough wisdom to go along with his intelligence to realize that there had to be a God.
ryanb31 wrote:
You already provided the scientific argument. Science cannot explain how nothing turned to something. So, clearly relying solely on science is not the right answer.
Since there is no evidence, the answer is "I don't know"
ryanb31 wrote:
Remember, it was only several hundred years ago that science claimed the world to be flat, or the sun to revolve around the earth. Science is incredible and awesome but history has proven time and time again that science does not always have the right answer, even where there is a so called scientific "proof." It is still limited by man's intelligence.
Science is limited by available knowledge, and is continually redefining itself. That's the scientific method. You start with what is a known fact, i.e. "The world is flat." When you find new evidence that contradicts it, you replace the old fact with a new one, i.e. "The world is round." Then, later, you figure out how to do some more accurate calculations, leading to a new fact: "The Earth is shaped like an oblate spheroid," and so on.
ryanb31 wrote:
One of the greatest scientists to ever live, Einstein, also knew there was a God. He said "I want to know how God created this world." Now, his view of God is very different than mine; however, he had enough wisdom to go along with his intelligence to realize that there had to be a God.
But he had no scientific basis for that. He had no evidence, or if he did, he didn't bother sharing it with anyone. Again, we're left with no proof. So now you've tried the "What's before the Big Bang?" argument, you've tried the "Science has been wrong before" argument, and you've tried the "Scientist X was a deist" argument... You haven't succeeded, but at least your arguments are improving, so well done there.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
ryanb31 wrote:
You already provided the scientific argument. Science cannot explain how nothing turned to something. So, clearly relying solely on science is not the right answer.
Since there is no evidence, the answer is "I don't know"
ryanb31 wrote:
Remember, it was only several hundred years ago that science claimed the world to be flat, or the sun to revolve around the earth. Science is incredible and awesome but history has proven time and time again that science does not always have the right answer, even where there is a so called scientific "proof." It is still limited by man's intelligence.
Science is limited by available knowledge, and is continually redefining itself. That's the scientific method. You start with what is a known fact, i.e. "The world is flat." When you find new evidence that contradicts it, you replace the old fact with a new one, i.e. "The world is round." Then, later, you figure out how to do some more accurate calculations, leading to a new fact: "The Earth is shaped like an oblate spheroid," and so on.
ryanb31 wrote:
One of the greatest scientists to ever live, Einstein, also knew there was a God. He said "I want to know how God created this world." Now, his view of God is very different than mine; however, he had enough wisdom to go along with his intelligence to realize that there had to be a God.
But he had no scientific basis for that. He had no evidence, or if he did, he didn't bother sharing it with anyone. Again, we're left with no proof. So now you've tried the "What's before the Big Bang?" argument, you've tried the "Science has been wrong before" argument, and you've tried the "Scientist X was a deist" argument... You haven't succeeded, but at least your arguments are improving, so well done there.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Actually, they're called rebuttals, as I continue to point out your lack of evidence. And yes, I will continue to deny the validity of your argument, until and unless you can present some form of evidence to back up your claim. A claim is nothing without evidence... Imagine the chaos if everyone just believed everything they heard without asking for evidence........ But enough about the Tea Party :-D
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Actually, they're called rebuttals, as I continue to point out your lack of evidence. And yes, I will continue to deny the validity of your argument, until and unless you can present some form of evidence to back up your claim. A claim is nothing without evidence... Imagine the chaos if everyone just believed everything they heard without asking for evidence........ But enough about the Tea Party :-D
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
You have no evidence to support your theory yet that is the only argument you have. Evidence. So show some evidence He doesn't exist. You haven't even tried.
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You have no evidence to support your theory yet that is the only argument you have. Evidence. So show some evidence He doesn't exist. You haven't even tried.
Show me some evidence that the world wasn't created by a flying spaghetti monster, or sneezed out of the nose of the great green arkulseizure, or poofed into being by a super-intelligent shade of the color blue. Since there's no proof of any of them, they're all just as unlikely as it being created by your "god". There are an infinite number of equally-unlikely possibilities. Any finite number divided by an infinite number is effectively zero, so the probability of any of them is zero. For that matter, prove that I'm not "god." ("In Ian We Trust" has a nice ring to it). That outcome is just as unlikely as anything you've suggested so far. Sure, I have no evidence, but neither do you. So you see, asking someone to prove the non-existence of "god" is a meaningless request.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Show me some evidence that the world wasn't created by a flying spaghetti monster, or sneezed out of the nose of the great green arkulseizure, or poofed into being by a super-intelligent shade of the color blue. Since there's no proof of any of them, they're all just as unlikely as it being created by your "god". There are an infinite number of equally-unlikely possibilities. Any finite number divided by an infinite number is effectively zero, so the probability of any of them is zero. For that matter, prove that I'm not "god." ("In Ian We Trust" has a nice ring to it). That outcome is just as unlikely as anything you've suggested so far. Sure, I have no evidence, but neither do you. So you see, asking someone to prove the non-existence of "god" is a meaningless request.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
Well, you don't need to pray to a sky pixie in order to have a sense of humor :-D Granted, two of those were from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and the third already well-known, so I can't claim originality there... Credit where credit is due.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels) -
I know I can't convince you. I have talked to way too many people like you. I just think it is interesting how you can look all around you and believe it all came from nothing. Have you ever studied the universe? Have you ever studied a seed or even the human body? If there is no God, why do you obey any laws? Why do you get out of bed in the morning? Why do you go to work? Why do you do anything? What's the point? You can't see wind and I bet you believe in wind. Why? Because of the evidence that it exists. Because of the impact and effect it has on things. I'll bet you have never seen an electron but I am sure you believe in them. If you look, you can see evidence of God everywhere, including in the mirror. Whether you like it or not, you are proof that God exists. Instead of denying it and pretend it is not there, you ought to try embracing that. I do respect your right to believe what you want, I just can't understand why you would want to believe the way you do.
ryanb31 wrote:
I just think it is interesting how you can look all around you and believe it all came from nothing.
It depends on what you mean by nothing, doesn't it. Humans have a limited degree of perception (4D), it has been enhanced by science, but is still limited. So, to us, 'stuff' in other dimensions is nothing, and it comes into existence only when it inhabits our four.
ryanb31 wrote:
Have you ever studied the universe? Have you ever studied a seed or even the human body?
Sorry, I am available for patronising on Thursdays only.
ryanb31 wrote:
If there is no God, why do you obey any laws?
Gosh! So God took the form of Mr. Stewart and caned me for talking in class?
ryanb31 wrote:
Why do you get out of bed in the morning?
Sheer joie de vivre, most days. Other days, the missus kicks me out.
ryanb31 wrote:
Why do you go to work?
Because, in this society, that is how I can (legitimately) get the money I need in order to enjoy it in relative comfort.
ryanb31 wrote:
Why do you do anything?
Because it is hard-wired into all living things.
ryanb31 wrote:
You can't see wind and I bet you believe in wind. Why? Because of the evidence that it exists. Because of the impact and effect it has on things.
I know it is the wind. You, however, can never be sure that it is not a manifestation of your God.
ryanb31 wrote:
I'll bet you have never seen an electron but I am sure you believe in them.
No, I don't 'believe' in electrons. The electron is merely a concept derived from observation that enables physicists to explain the 'known' and conjecture upon the unknown. As long as it works for them, I'll go along with it.
ryanb31 wrote:
If you look, you can see evidence of God everywhere, including in the mirror. Whether you like it or not, you are proof that God exists.
No, my experience of 'stuff' merely proves to me that I exist.
ryanb31 wrote:
Instead of denying it and pretend it is
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You have no evidence to support your theory yet that is the only argument you have. Evidence. So show some evidence He doesn't exist. You haven't even tried.
Your argument is very weak, and hopefully the reason will become obvious with an analogous one: Dragons are very real indeed. Don't believe me? Well then, prove that they don't exist, otherwise accept that they do.
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I know I can't convince you. I have talked to way too many people like you. I just think it is interesting how you can look all around you and believe it all came from nothing. Have you ever studied the universe? Have you ever studied a seed or even the human body? If there is no God, why do you obey any laws? Why do you get out of bed in the morning? Why do you go to work? Why do you do anything? What's the point? You can't see wind and I bet you believe in wind. Why? Because of the evidence that it exists. Because of the impact and effect it has on things. I'll bet you have never seen an electron but I am sure you believe in them. If you look, you can see evidence of God everywhere, including in the mirror. Whether you like it or not, you are proof that God exists. Instead of denying it and pretend it is not there, you ought to try embracing that. I do respect your right to believe what you want, I just can't understand why you would want to believe the way you do.
ryanb31 wrote:
I know I can't convince you.
I think that's because "it's obvious!" is not a very convincing argument.
ryanb31 wrote:
I just think it is interesting how you can look all around you and believe it all came from nothing.
It's probably not something we would have come up with from a vacuum. The reason we believe in the Big Bang is because every piece of evidence found thus far points towards it. In other words, reality supports it.
ryanb31 wrote:
Have you ever studied a seed or even the human body?
Evolution explains them perfectly well. For example, evolution explains why the recurrent laryngeal nerve takes such a needlessly meandering route around the arch of the aorta even though it only has to go practically from the brain to the larynx. It would make no sense to be designed in such a way, but in fish this nerve actually does take a direct route, and through evolution as the heart descended the nerve was forced to elongate with it, being 'caught on the wrong side' and having no mechanism for getting around it.
ryanb31 wrote:
If there is no God, why do you obey any laws?
In your mind, god will reward you for obeying laws, so you do. That makes it a purely selfish reason.
ryanb31 wrote:
Why do you get out of bed in the morning? Why do you go to work? Why do you do anything? What's the point?
Do you only feel pleasure and pain with respect to your religion? Have you never done something just because you wanted to, rather than because you thought god might want you to do so?
ryanb31 wrote:
You can't see wind and I bet you believe in wind. Why? Because of the evidence that it exists. Because of the impact and effect it has on things.
You're right, I could hold a pinwheel outside on a windy day and it would certainly do something. What I couldn't do is hold a pinwheel inside where the air is completely still and say, "God, if you're real, make this pinwheel turn," and have it actually turn. That never happens, and has never happened, not once. I could ask him to make me rich, or make me poor, or make a coin land on heads 100 times in a r
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Well, you don't need to pray to a sky pixie in order to have a sense of humor :-D Granted, two of those were from the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and the third already well-known, so I can't claim originality there... Credit where credit is due.
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)You've gotta give him credit, he's managed to parrot almost all of the most common vacuous-creationist-drivel that I've ever heard in one short conversation. It's difficult I'm sure to be so deluded and to be able to scrape together the mental wherewithal to type out a sentence on a computer.
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You've gotta give him credit, he's managed to parrot almost all of the most common vacuous-creationist-drivel that I've ever heard in one short conversation. It's difficult I'm sure to be so deluded and to be able to scrape together the mental wherewithal to type out a sentence on a computer.
I wasn't even going to get into this one... Figured Dave would trounce him thoroughly... But it's been one of those months...
Proud to have finally moved to the A-Ark. Which one are you in?
Author of the Guardians Saga (Sci-Fi/Fantasy novels)