Heaven, Hell, and the multiverse
-
Thanks, Nish! That's actually where this idea is heading. :) I'm working through the plot, and developing some characters right now. I hope to start with the writing pretty soon. BW "Gandalf. Yes. That is what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. *I* am Gandalf the White." - Gandalf the White
CP Book Clubbrianwelsch wrote: I'm working through the plot, and developing some characters right now. I hope to start with the writing pretty soon. Awesome! That is one of my big dreams too, to pen a SF book. You should start a journal on the challenges and processes you go through as you write your book :)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaPaul Watson wrote: "The Labia [cinema]... ...was opened by Princess Labia in May 1949..." Christian Graus wrote: See, I told you it was a nice name for a girl...
-
For whatever reason I was thinking about the universe and God. I was thinking that there are multiple universes. The one we live in, Heaven, Hell, and several others. Heaven is the original universe, and quite a nice place at that. God rules over it, and the other universes, with the one exeption being Hell. Each of the universes has a sort of Gateway back to Heaven, but not to the other universes. One nice day, when God was creating Hell, and deciding who should rule over it, Lucifer, a mere cherubum, got this notion that he should be the overlord. However, he was not high-ranking enough to warrant the position. So he revolted, and took it over anyway, much to God's dismay. There was a bit of a war over this, and in the end God decided to close the Gateway to Hell, so that the Devil could no longer come back. The problem with this was that Gateways could not be undone, but they could be "rerouted". So Our Universe was created, as a buffer between Heaven and Hell. Angels were sent here as well, to guard the Gateway between Heaven and Earth and the Gateway between Hell and Earth. So the Devil continuously tries to take over our universe so that he might eventually get back to Heaven, and rule the whole shebang. Any chance this is the real story? :~ BW "Gandalf. Yes. That is what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. *I* am Gandalf the White." - Gandalf the White
I'm not a religous person, but there is one question that surfaces in my mind on this stuff. If God is omnipotent and ominscent (all powerful and all knowing) and created everything then: 1. God created the devil, and 2. God knows the consequences of all his/her/its actions and the universe is there deterministic and free will does not exist. The alternative is that God is not omnipotent and ominscent. One other thing - when people talk about the bible what do they mean ? Unlike the Quran, there is no original bible, instead many documents written at different times in a number of languages, particularly aramaic and greek. The tigress is here :-D
-
Just to let you know, "Abraham's Bosom" refers to Paradise. Tartarus is the torment part of Hades. Also, the word Hades is also used as a reference to Tartarus. There are also references in the Old Testament to "lowest Sheol" (sometimes translated hell) and "high sheol" (again, sometimes translated hell). These refer to torment and paradise respectively. Jason Gerard qeou kai kurios Iasou Cristou doulos
Jason Gerard wrote: "high sheol" (again, sometimes translated hell) I sure thought High School was hell.... oh, wait, this is a serious conversation :-D Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
-
Thanks, Nish! That's actually where this idea is heading. :) I'm working through the plot, and developing some characters right now. I hope to start with the writing pretty soon. BW "Gandalf. Yes. That is what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. *I* am Gandalf the White." - Gandalf the White
CP Book ClubI love SF with a religious theme, at least when it's well researched and/or thought out. Try to get hold of some of Arthur C Clarke's short stories, in particular The Star and Nine Billion Names of God. Quite different from what you're aiming at but you'll see what I mean when you read them. Also don't shy away from the comic industry, there's some excellent interpretations of religious themes out there... Sandman, Lucifer and even Spawn spring to mind. Just a few ideas off the top of my head, from a SF/Fantasy fan with a fascination in religion rather than a religious type :) As a side note, there are some great research books out there too. A Dictionary of Angels: Including the Fallen Angels[^] is the kind of book that might be useful to you. Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
-
I love SF with a religious theme, at least when it's well researched and/or thought out. Try to get hold of some of Arthur C Clarke's short stories, in particular The Star and Nine Billion Names of God. Quite different from what you're aiming at but you'll see what I mean when you read them. Also don't shy away from the comic industry, there's some excellent interpretations of religious themes out there... Sandman, Lucifer and even Spawn spring to mind. Just a few ideas off the top of my head, from a SF/Fantasy fan with a fascination in religion rather than a religious type :) As a side note, there are some great research books out there too. A Dictionary of Angels: Including the Fallen Angels[^] is the kind of book that might be useful to you. Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
Paul Riley wrote: Try to get hold of some of Arthur C Clarke's short stories A Dictionary of Angels: Including the Fallen Angels[^] is the Will do. Thanks. I've been reading some Neil Gaimen, Clive Barker, and rereading LOTR. Gaimen's Neverwhere actually inspired me to start trying again. Its funny how differently you read when you're looking to write. BW "Gandalf. Yes. That is what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. *I* am Gandalf the White." - Gandalf the White
CP Book Club -
brianwelsch wrote: I'm working through the plot, and developing some characters right now. I hope to start with the writing pretty soon. Awesome! That is one of my big dreams too, to pen a SF book. You should start a journal on the challenges and processes you go through as you write your book :)
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South AfricaPaul Watson wrote: "The Labia [cinema]... ...was opened by Princess Labia in May 1949..." Christian Graus wrote: See, I told you it was a nice name for a girl...
Paul Watson wrote: Awesome! That is one of my big dreams too, to pen a SF book. Its been mine for a long, long time. And I kept making one excuse after the other, and finally decided to just start... The biggest part was I always would say I don't have time to finish right now anyway. But I realized its much better to chip away at it slowly than to never start at all. You should start a journal on the challenges and processes you go through as you write your book I'll try to. Actually, if I write in my journal everyday, writing things like "Didn't work on the novel today" should help further motivate me to continue, right?;) BW "Gandalf. Yes. That is what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. *I* am Gandalf the White." - Gandalf the White
CP Book Club -
I'm not a religous person, but there is one question that surfaces in my mind on this stuff. If God is omnipotent and ominscent (all powerful and all knowing) and created everything then: 1. God created the devil, and 2. God knows the consequences of all his/her/its actions and the universe is there deterministic and free will does not exist. The alternative is that God is not omnipotent and ominscent. One other thing - when people talk about the bible what do they mean ? Unlike the Quran, there is no original bible, instead many documents written at different times in a number of languages, particularly aramaic and greek. The tigress is here :-D
I actually was wondering this myself yesterday. One thought could be that God created Satan so we would have to prove our worth. He gave us the free will to chose our own paths, good or evil. Without creating Satan, people would have to decide between Heaven and well something else that just wasn't really too bad. ;) He can't just let everyone into Heaven, because there's limited seating. That's not His fault because there was Heaven before God. Oh, no wait.. :confused: more questions.... Trollslayer wrote: when people talk about the bible what do they mean ? Regarding the Bible, I see your point too. I've had conversations with devout Christians who tried to explain it. The story I got was basically this, the Bible is a collection of sixty-something books, written by different people at different times. However, the stories all match-up. The fact that they were collected and match-up so well, is proof that the work was inspired by God. Also, it says so right in the Book, that it is the word of God. My thought was that it sounds all very cyclical. The Bible is the word of God, because it says its the Word right in the Bible. And that is indisputable because after all it is the Word of God....... There is definitely a point where a person has to take a leap of faith that what seems like it might fit, actually does. BW "Gandalf. Yes. That is what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. *I* am Gandalf the White." - Gandalf the White
CP Book Club -
Paul Riley wrote: Try to get hold of some of Arthur C Clarke's short stories A Dictionary of Angels: Including the Fallen Angels[^] is the Will do. Thanks. I've been reading some Neil Gaimen, Clive Barker, and rereading LOTR. Gaimen's Neverwhere actually inspired me to start trying again. Its funny how differently you read when you're looking to write. BW "Gandalf. Yes. That is what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. *I* am Gandalf the White." - Gandalf the White
CP Book Clubbrianwelsch wrote: Neverwhere actually inspired me to start trying again. You should be careful talking to me about Neil Gaiman. The guy rocks, I rave about him at any opportunity. In fact, believe it or not, it was him who recommended Dictionary of Angels to me :-D. You may or may not know that my old sig ("if you need me, me and Neil'll be hangin' out with the dream king") was Tori Amos singing about Neil Gaiman and his Sandman comics. (available as ten graphic novels, starting with Preludes and Nocturnes[^]) Beware though: This series was solely responsible for turning me to comics, a habit that costs me around £80 a month now :-O Neverwhere was superb, in book and TV form (although the TV series was fairly low budget and The Beast was awful). And I nearly mentioned American Gods as a recommended read in my last message. Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
-
brianwelsch wrote: Neverwhere actually inspired me to start trying again. You should be careful talking to me about Neil Gaiman. The guy rocks, I rave about him at any opportunity. In fact, believe it or not, it was him who recommended Dictionary of Angels to me :-D. You may or may not know that my old sig ("if you need me, me and Neil'll be hangin' out with the dream king") was Tori Amos singing about Neil Gaiman and his Sandman comics. (available as ten graphic novels, starting with Preludes and Nocturnes[^]) Beware though: This series was solely responsible for turning me to comics, a habit that costs me around £80 a month now :-O Neverwhere was superb, in book and TV form (although the TV series was fairly low budget and The Beast was awful). And I nearly mentioned American Gods as a recommended read in my last message. Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
I started off reading a few Sandman GNs. Definitely awesome. He's got an amazing imagination and talent for storytelling. I have Smoke&Mirrors, and American Gods as well.. I'd like to read Good Omens sometime too. I don't remember your sig..Which song is that from? I went to see Tori a few months ago. Great (as usual)! I do remember hearing she and Neil were friends. Collecting, comics, eh..... perhaps I can tempt you with a few... Muhahahahaha. :) BW "Gandalf. Yes. That is what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. *I* am Gandalf the White." - Gandalf the White
CP Book Club -
I started off reading a few Sandman GNs. Definitely awesome. He's got an amazing imagination and talent for storytelling. I have Smoke&Mirrors, and American Gods as well.. I'd like to read Good Omens sometime too. I don't remember your sig..Which song is that from? I went to see Tori a few months ago. Great (as usual)! I do remember hearing she and Neil were friends. Collecting, comics, eh..... perhaps I can tempt you with a few... Muhahahahaha. :) BW "Gandalf. Yes. That is what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. *I* am Gandalf the White." - Gandalf the White
CP Book Clubbrianwelsch wrote: I have Smoke&Mirrors, and American Gods as well.. I'd like to read Good Omens sometime too. Good Omens was the first thing I read by Gaiman, some years before Neverwhere and Sandman. Very strange, very funny. Not surprising really, being a Gaiman story rewritten by Pratchett (aparently Pratchett found it in a draw at Gaiman's house and asked him if he could use it). Gaiman is the imagination master but sometimes his writing style slips, Pratchett is one of the funniest writers out there but kind of falls over when it comes to new ideas. brianwelsch wrote: Collecting, comics, eh..... perhaps I can tempt you with a few... Muhahahahaha. Not really a collector, although I do have boxes full of the damn things. I'm addicted to stories, I don't care what format they come in, so I buy them to read rather than to keep. I don't buy expensive backissues or anything like that. Collectors are one of the key things that's destroyed the comic industry as a medium. Because of collectors, it has become necessary to use quality paper and computer graphic art and the price has rapidly gone up from a kid-friendly 25c per issue to a heavy $2-3. People buy comics for their long-term value nowadays (which ironicly will not be much because collectors will already own them all), not for the story inside. Very sad. Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
-
brianwelsch wrote: I have Smoke&Mirrors, and American Gods as well.. I'd like to read Good Omens sometime too. Good Omens was the first thing I read by Gaiman, some years before Neverwhere and Sandman. Very strange, very funny. Not surprising really, being a Gaiman story rewritten by Pratchett (aparently Pratchett found it in a draw at Gaiman's house and asked him if he could use it). Gaiman is the imagination master but sometimes his writing style slips, Pratchett is one of the funniest writers out there but kind of falls over when it comes to new ideas. brianwelsch wrote: Collecting, comics, eh..... perhaps I can tempt you with a few... Muhahahahaha. Not really a collector, although I do have boxes full of the damn things. I'm addicted to stories, I don't care what format they come in, so I buy them to read rather than to keep. I don't buy expensive backissues or anything like that. Collectors are one of the key things that's destroyed the comic industry as a medium. Because of collectors, it has become necessary to use quality paper and computer graphic art and the price has rapidly gone up from a kid-friendly 25c per issue to a heavy $2-3. People buy comics for their long-term value nowadays (which ironicly will not be much because collectors will already own them all), not for the story inside. Very sad. Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows
Back in the 80's mainly I bought them for the read as well. I kept them in the best condition I could with bags and boards, but it was for the fun of reading mainly. Now I have cabinet full of them, and ocassionally I look up some that I have to see what people by them for. One day I'll run into someone who wants to buy the whole bunch, and I'll go buy a nice new living room suite, or Roland keyboard or something... About, Gaiman... you're right with his style.. sometimes he not on. Its just that his story is damn cool, you forgive quickly enough. BW "Gandalf. Yes. That is what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. *I* am Gandalf the White." - Gandalf the White
CP Book Club -
brianwelsch wrote: Any chance this is the real story? Well it's certainly as believable as the rest...
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff wrote: Well it's certainly as believable as the rest... I find it hard to believe you replied with that. It shows a real lack of sensitivity. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
-
David Wulff wrote: Well it's certainly as believable as the rest... I find it hard to believe you replied with that. It shows a real lack of sensitivity. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
You mean he was actually attempting to be serious? If so I am truely sorry, it certainly didn't strike me as that or I would have simply ignored it. :-O
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
-
Konstantin Vasserman wrote: I am not familiar with Professor X There is a comic book called the X-Men from Marvel Comics. Its a group of mutant super heroes, and their leader is Professor X. There's a movie called 'X-Men', which actually has a sequel coming out 'X2'. BW "Gandalf. Yes. That is what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. *I* am Gandalf the White." - Gandalf the White
brianwelsch wrote: X-Men from Marvel Comics Ah, the Marvel comics, a good souvenir from my youth :) Spiderman, Daredevil, the X-Men were my contemporary heroic-fantasy heroes, the Ivanhoes of the XXth century :rolleyes:
I don't feel it anymore I don't see, anymore I don't hear, anymore I don't speak anymore, I don't feel
-
I actually was wondering this myself yesterday. One thought could be that God created Satan so we would have to prove our worth. He gave us the free will to chose our own paths, good or evil. Without creating Satan, people would have to decide between Heaven and well something else that just wasn't really too bad. ;) He can't just let everyone into Heaven, because there's limited seating. That's not His fault because there was Heaven before God. Oh, no wait.. :confused: more questions.... Trollslayer wrote: when people talk about the bible what do they mean ? Regarding the Bible, I see your point too. I've had conversations with devout Christians who tried to explain it. The story I got was basically this, the Bible is a collection of sixty-something books, written by different people at different times. However, the stories all match-up. The fact that they were collected and match-up so well, is proof that the work was inspired by God. Also, it says so right in the Book, that it is the word of God. My thought was that it sounds all very cyclical. The Bible is the word of God, because it says its the Word right in the Bible. And that is indisputable because after all it is the Word of God....... There is definitely a point where a person has to take a leap of faith that what seems like it might fit, actually does. BW "Gandalf. Yes. That is what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. *I* am Gandalf the White." - Gandalf the White
CP Book Clubbrianwelsch wrote: There is definitely a point where a person has to take a leap of faith that what seems like it might fit, actually does. Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence. Richard Dawkins in The "know-nothings", the "know-alls", and the "no-contests"[^]
-
You mean he was actually attempting to be serious? If so I am truely sorry, it certainly didn't strike me as that or I would have simply ignored it. :-O
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
Fear not, young David. I'm trying to get feedback on story idea.:) BW "Gandalf. Yes. That is what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. *I* am Gandalf the White." - Gandalf the White
CP Book Club -
David Wulff wrote: Well it's certainly as believable as the rest... I find it hard to believe you replied with that. It shows a real lack of sensitivity. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Thanks for the backup, but its really a storyline not my views on theology.:) BW "Gandalf. Yes. That is what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. *I* am Gandalf the White." - Gandalf the White
CP Book Club -
Thanks for the backup, but its really a storyline not my views on theology.:) BW "Gandalf. Yes. That is what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. *I* am Gandalf the White." - Gandalf the White
CP Book ClubDon't ruin a good thing. Your story line sounded good and had an appropriate climax. You will need to work on the finer points though for the masses. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
-
Don't ruin a good thing. Your story line sounded good and had an appropriate climax. You will need to work on the finer points though for the masses. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
I've got a long way to go.... This is the first time I'm actually trying to work out the story/characters/plot twists before diving in and writing chapter 1. BW "Gandalf. Yes. That is what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. *I* am Gandalf the White." - Gandalf the White
-
For whatever reason I was thinking about the universe and God. I was thinking that there are multiple universes. The one we live in, Heaven, Hell, and several others. Heaven is the original universe, and quite a nice place at that. God rules over it, and the other universes, with the one exeption being Hell. Each of the universes has a sort of Gateway back to Heaven, but not to the other universes. One nice day, when God was creating Hell, and deciding who should rule over it, Lucifer, a mere cherubum, got this notion that he should be the overlord. However, he was not high-ranking enough to warrant the position. So he revolted, and took it over anyway, much to God's dismay. There was a bit of a war over this, and in the end God decided to close the Gateway to Hell, so that the Devil could no longer come back. The problem with this was that Gateways could not be undone, but they could be "rerouted". So Our Universe was created, as a buffer between Heaven and Hell. Angels were sent here as well, to guard the Gateway between Heaven and Earth and the Gateway between Hell and Earth. So the Devil continuously tries to take over our universe so that he might eventually get back to Heaven, and rule the whole shebang. Any chance this is the real story? :~ BW "Gandalf. Yes. That is what they used to call me. Gandalf the Grey. *I* am Gandalf the White." - Gandalf the White
Well, this may be part of the philosophy that lead Christians to burn witches at the stake. In medieval times, it was generally assumed that witches had contact with the devil and wielded power against good Christians with their pact. Further, it was thought that disease was caused by vapors and demons. That's not to say that the theory you bring up is wrong - just that there's a great deal of evil to be caused by assuming we have a role to protect heaven by fighting the "devil" in this world. Unfortunately, God was very uncommunicative when it came to telling Christians the truth of the matter. Communication could've spared a great deal of crime against innocents and could've helped cure disease. (Why didn't God just tell mankind to - for example - kill the rats which were causing the Black Plague. Surely, God must've known. There are plenty of examples throughout history where people could've avoided horrible mass death if only God had warned them.) So, the question is: why is God so tight-lipped over things that He knows? Additionally, if we could assume that God is more powerful than his creation (the devil), so the Devil really has no chance to get back to Heaven anyway. The devil can only wield the power that God allows him to have. ------------------------------------------ "Isn't it funny how people say they'll never grow up to be their parents, then one day they look in the mirror and they're moving aircraft carriers into the Gulf region?" - The Onion