Music business decline
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I agree. My take is this industry is stealing money with each single or album CD they sell. What we need to make it a better consumer place is lower priced CDs (budget CDs) with the same artists being played. That would teach a lesson on what is the right price for a CD. (just like free newspapers have done with paid newspapers). <french audience>chat[^] avec P. Negre / Universal</french audience>
.S.Rod. wrote: My take is this industry is stealing money with each single or album CD they sell. While I'm no fan of the music industry (bunch of visionless dinosaurs, IMO), I think calling CD sales a "theft" is way off the mark. Where is this theft? Are people forced to buy the CD's even though they don't want to? Are bands forced to sign contracts? Forced to do the bidding of their RIAA masters? My take on it is that most bands (and CD buyers) would like a better climate than what the RIAA provides. Oddly enough, they just keep signing contracts with big labels. Again and again and again and again... Radiohead's tour a year or two ago (with the release of 'Kid A') had no corporate involvement at all from what I could tell. No booths set up at the concert venue, no 'Coca Cola presents' on the ticket stub, etc... If the music bigwigs had such a terrible stranglehold on the industry, how could it be possible for Radiohead to pull this off? I think that its because Radiohead realized that too much outside involvement in their music sucked, and they had the guts to turn down all the money from potential sponsors and the foresight to insist on this right during contract negotions. I think way too often bands today claim that the music industry is a bunch of evil scumbags, and then happily jump right into bed with them. And, as it always happens, keeping tight control over things will cost much, much more in time, money, and effort than just giving the market what it wants. No amount of laws, bribes, stunts, or pre-fabbed bands can keep it from crumbling. Just think - how many millions was spent developing that worthless copy protection for CD's (you know, the one you can defeat with a magic marker)? If the US had the balls to have the capitalist economy it likes to pretend it has, these jokers would have been smoldering heaps years ago - or they would have had to retool themselves to fit the new age. Either way, they're on life support right now, and I don't see them surviving the next 10 years without having major shifts in their business strategy. -- Russell Morris "Have you gone mad Frink? Put down that science pole!"
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CD's here cost thirty DOLLARS each. That's the same price as a DVD movie. The artist makes less than a buck. CD's can't cost more than a dollar or two to make, and most of that is the fancy booklet. I think the music industry is going to go the way of the dodo. Within a generation, people will simply stop buying CD's. If artists put up web sites where their music can be downloaded, then people will be happy to pay a couple of dollars to download an album, which is more than the artist gets now, and the people who will lose are the same people the net has killed in many industries - the middle man. Oh, people with no talent will also lose, the money will not be their to market their 'musak' to teenagers. I predict this will be a great time for music and a bad time for executives. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: CD's here cost thirty DOLLARS each. How much is that in real money? Over here I get CD's for an average of £8.50 a pop online, and about £10 - £12 on the highstreet. In my honest opinion that is extremely good value, even if I may only listen to one or two tracks with hindsight. That said, the reason none of my friends buy CD's (they pritate off the net, etc) is not because CD's are in their eyes expensive, it's because when they can steal them they don't cost anything - which means they can afford more clothes and pints down at the pub. It's a new mentality towards these things that is being raised with my generation - why buy it if you can get it easily and with no risk for free? It's sad, it really is, but don't let the media fool you: this is how it is. The whole "oh CD's are far too expensive and the artists get so little anyway" crap or the "but I only want one track on the album" crap is just that: C.R.A.P. People steal because it doesn't cost them anything, and with the anonymity of the Internet they can steal safe in the knowledge that they will not be prosecuted for doing so. My friends seriously look at me with *genuine* astonishment when I tell them I've been and bought so and so's latest album - they say "Why? I could have got you that for free with Kazaa you idiot". In my honest personal opinion I seriously wish music companies would start a massive sweep against *ALL* online music pirates with fines of no less than £10 for each pirated track and a mandatory 30 day prison sentance for *anybody* who distributes illegal music. Hit 'em hard and let them know that crime does not pay, not even when you can make fake and seriously flawed justifications for it to yourself till the fucking sun comes down. :| That's my piece said. Call it my eight pound fifty. h.a.s. : 0.5.5
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "Apart from my kids, I have no sleeping problems" - Christian Graus
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Christian Graus wrote: CD's here cost thirty DOLLARS each. How much is that in real money? Over here I get CD's for an average of £8.50 a pop online, and about £10 - £12 on the highstreet. In my honest opinion that is extremely good value, even if I may only listen to one or two tracks with hindsight. That said, the reason none of my friends buy CD's (they pritate off the net, etc) is not because CD's are in their eyes expensive, it's because when they can steal them they don't cost anything - which means they can afford more clothes and pints down at the pub. It's a new mentality towards these things that is being raised with my generation - why buy it if you can get it easily and with no risk for free? It's sad, it really is, but don't let the media fool you: this is how it is. The whole "oh CD's are far too expensive and the artists get so little anyway" crap or the "but I only want one track on the album" crap is just that: C.R.A.P. People steal because it doesn't cost them anything, and with the anonymity of the Internet they can steal safe in the knowledge that they will not be prosecuted for doing so. My friends seriously look at me with *genuine* astonishment when I tell them I've been and bought so and so's latest album - they say "Why? I could have got you that for free with Kazaa you idiot". In my honest personal opinion I seriously wish music companies would start a massive sweep against *ALL* online music pirates with fines of no less than £10 for each pirated track and a mandatory 30 day prison sentance for *anybody* who distributes illegal music. Hit 'em hard and let them know that crime does not pay, not even when you can make fake and seriously flawed justifications for it to yourself till the fucking sun comes down. :| That's my piece said. Call it my eight pound fifty. h.a.s. : 0.5.5
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "Apart from my kids, I have no sleeping problems" - Christian Graus
David Wulff wrote: It's a new mentality towards these things that is being raised with my generation - why buy it if you can get it easily and with no risk for free? It's sad, it really is, but don't let the media fool you: this is how it is. The whole "oh CD's are far too expensive and the artists get so little anyway" crap or the "but I only want one track on the album" crap is just that: C.R.A.P. People steal because it doesn't cost them anything, and with the anonymity of the Internet they can steal safe in the knowledge that they will not be prosecuted for doing so. I agree totally with that. People don't see "ripping" CDs of music or software as theft anymore. Unsure if making examples out of people will make any difference as it has become a whole attitude now. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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David Wulff wrote: It's a new mentality towards these things that is being raised with my generation - why buy it if you can get it easily and with no risk for free? It's sad, it really is, but don't let the media fool you: this is how it is. The whole "oh CD's are far too expensive and the artists get so little anyway" crap or the "but I only want one track on the album" crap is just that: C.R.A.P. People steal because it doesn't cost them anything, and with the anonymity of the Internet they can steal safe in the knowledge that they will not be prosecuted for doing so. I agree totally with that. People don't see "ripping" CDs of music or software as theft anymore. Unsure if making examples out of people will make any difference as it has become a whole attitude now. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Well surely it is high about time be made sure these dickheads realised that theft is theft, no matter how easy it may be or how many of your friends do it? The way things are currently heading the media companies are removing my rights, as a legtimate licensed owner, to use their media by introducing new encryption and copy-crippling tecnologies that wont affect the pirates, only the legitimate owners. Things are fast headed the American way - kill of our liberties to create an illusion of safety and security. In Europe this is *big* - BMG a massive German label is already crippling *every* CD it releases. Does this hamper the pirates? Not at all. They just wait for the uncrippled version to be released in the States and then send it around the globe ninety million times within thirty seconds. We, the good guys, are getting royally fucked up the arse by these pirates, and they aint using lubricant. Rob them blind and send them to prison for all I care - they are the ones breaking the law and choosing to convieniently remould their own so called "highly held" morals around their wallets. Why should I give a damn what happens to them? They obviously don't give a damn what happens to me (and I'm not easily made to feel this way). :mad:
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "Apart from my kids, I have no sleeping problems" - Christian Graus
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Well surely it is high about time be made sure these dickheads realised that theft is theft, no matter how easy it may be or how many of your friends do it? The way things are currently heading the media companies are removing my rights, as a legtimate licensed owner, to use their media by introducing new encryption and copy-crippling tecnologies that wont affect the pirates, only the legitimate owners. Things are fast headed the American way - kill of our liberties to create an illusion of safety and security. In Europe this is *big* - BMG a massive German label is already crippling *every* CD it releases. Does this hamper the pirates? Not at all. They just wait for the uncrippled version to be released in the States and then send it around the globe ninety million times within thirty seconds. We, the good guys, are getting royally fucked up the arse by these pirates, and they aint using lubricant. Rob them blind and send them to prison for all I care - they are the ones breaking the law and choosing to convieniently remould their own so called "highly held" morals around their wallets. Why should I give a damn what happens to them? They obviously don't give a damn what happens to me (and I'm not easily made to feel this way). :mad:
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "Apart from my kids, I have no sleeping problems" - Christian Graus
I'm not arguing with you as to how pirating is wrong || immoral just I don't think the solution is to make examples of people. The observation you make as to how pirating ends up effecting those who don't pirate is a good one. And something we often forget. Every copy protection system that is ever created also seems to be crackable and only ends up costing those who are not pirates. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
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I'm not arguing with you as to how pirating is wrong || immoral just I don't think the solution is to make examples of people. The observation you make as to how pirating ends up effecting those who don't pirate is a good one. And something we often forget. Every copy protection system that is ever created also seems to be crackable and only ends up costing those who are not pirates. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining. Said by Roger Wright about me.
Yeah I know, but what is the way to takle it? Lowering the price of CD's wont help because these people will simply carry on as before no matter what they may say now ("why pay when it is free and easy"), copy protection methods never work (not even in the short term), and even the idea of EPs and bundelling music DVDs with new relases just plain isn't working (which is a damned shame IMHO because almost every CD I have purcahsed in recent months has been worth ten times what I've paid for it for the content it offers)... so if hard-handed prosecution is not a vaiable option what is? If we carry on like this there will be no more music released by major international labels, and whilst I personally could probably survive my life merely playing the CD's I have already purchased and listening to a semi-talented copycat group playing down at my local, I hardly think that is a fair situation to condem our children to. And as you said in your previous reply, this doesn't just apply to music, it applies to software, games, and movies too. The big difference though is that software and games are actively (if on a somewhat small scale) protected by international law and the decent movies (which are the main ones I am seeing pirated around me) make billions the cinemas to support themselves. :mad: :((
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
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Christian Graus wrote: CD's here cost thirty DOLLARS each. How much is that in real money? Over here I get CD's for an average of £8.50 a pop online, and about £10 - £12 on the highstreet. In my honest opinion that is extremely good value, even if I may only listen to one or two tracks with hindsight. That said, the reason none of my friends buy CD's (they pritate off the net, etc) is not because CD's are in their eyes expensive, it's because when they can steal them they don't cost anything - which means they can afford more clothes and pints down at the pub. It's a new mentality towards these things that is being raised with my generation - why buy it if you can get it easily and with no risk for free? It's sad, it really is, but don't let the media fool you: this is how it is. The whole "oh CD's are far too expensive and the artists get so little anyway" crap or the "but I only want one track on the album" crap is just that: C.R.A.P. People steal because it doesn't cost them anything, and with the anonymity of the Internet they can steal safe in the knowledge that they will not be prosecuted for doing so. My friends seriously look at me with *genuine* astonishment when I tell them I've been and bought so and so's latest album - they say "Why? I could have got you that for free with Kazaa you idiot". In my honest personal opinion I seriously wish music companies would start a massive sweep against *ALL* online music pirates with fines of no less than £10 for each pirated track and a mandatory 30 day prison sentance for *anybody* who distributes illegal music. Hit 'em hard and let them know that crime does not pay, not even when you can make fake and seriously flawed justifications for it to yourself till the fucking sun comes down. :| That's my piece said. Call it my eight pound fifty. h.a.s. : 0.5.5
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "Apart from my kids, I have no sleeping problems" - Christian Graus
David Wulff wrote: How much is that in real money? Over here I get CD's for an average of £8.50 a pop online, and about £10 - £12 on the highstreet. In my honest opinion that is extremely good value, even if I may only listen to one or two tracks with hindsight. It depends what you mean. Thirty dollars AU = about 10 pounds, BUT it's not really that simple. I don't think the comparison flows over to the cost of consumer goods generally, i.e. anything I bought from the UK would be hideously expensive once I did the conversion. I suspect that thinking of it as 30 pounds would not be far off the mark, in terms of cost to the individual in the country. David Wulff wrote: It's a new mentality towards these things that is being raised with my generation Nope - it's just that we used to have to put up with having to find someone who had the record and the drop of quality that came with copying to tape. Piracy is not new, just easier. David Wulff wrote: People steal because it doesn't cost them anything, and with the anonymity of the Internet they can steal safe in the knowledge that they will not be prosecuted for doing so. I agree - most people will steal music simply because they can, but the fact remains that in Australia, CD prices have been too high for a long, long time. Personally, I would buy more music if the price was less, and the net effect would be me spending more on music. David Wulff wrote: h.a.s. : 0.5.5 What does that mean ? :confused: David Wulff wrote: I seriously wish music companies would start a massive sweep against *ALL* online music pirates with fines of no less than £10 for each pirated track and a mandatory 30 day prison sentance for *anybody* who distributes illegal music LOL - do you think they wouldn't if they could ? I have concerns about the whole deal, and I agree that it's not right for people to steal intellectual property, but it's nothing new, and the sad fact is that the music industry has chosen a very poor path to try and deal with it, and has always and continues to treat it's customers with contempt. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up -
Christian Graus wrote: CD's here cost thirty DOLLARS each. How much is that in real money? Over here I get CD's for an average of £8.50 a pop online, and about £10 - £12 on the highstreet. In my honest opinion that is extremely good value, even if I may only listen to one or two tracks with hindsight. That said, the reason none of my friends buy CD's (they pritate off the net, etc) is not because CD's are in their eyes expensive, it's because when they can steal them they don't cost anything - which means they can afford more clothes and pints down at the pub. It's a new mentality towards these things that is being raised with my generation - why buy it if you can get it easily and with no risk for free? It's sad, it really is, but don't let the media fool you: this is how it is. The whole "oh CD's are far too expensive and the artists get so little anyway" crap or the "but I only want one track on the album" crap is just that: C.R.A.P. People steal because it doesn't cost them anything, and with the anonymity of the Internet they can steal safe in the knowledge that they will not be prosecuted for doing so. My friends seriously look at me with *genuine* astonishment when I tell them I've been and bought so and so's latest album - they say "Why? I could have got you that for free with Kazaa you idiot". In my honest personal opinion I seriously wish music companies would start a massive sweep against *ALL* online music pirates with fines of no less than £10 for each pirated track and a mandatory 30 day prison sentance for *anybody* who distributes illegal music. Hit 'em hard and let them know that crime does not pay, not even when you can make fake and seriously flawed justifications for it to yourself till the fucking sun comes down. :| That's my piece said. Call it my eight pound fifty. h.a.s. : 0.5.5
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "Apart from my kids, I have no sleeping problems" - Christian Graus
David Wulff wrote: Over here I get CD's for an average of £8.50 a pop online, and about £10 - £12 on the highstreet. In my honest opinion that is extremely good value, even if I may only listen to one or two tracks with hindsight. Well, only your opinion determines what is good value for you, but the market (mostly) decides what the actual price is. And i'm hard pressed to find new CDs these days that are worth to *me* the $10-$15 i'd have to pay for them. If i only end up listening to the single then that's terrible value, as chances are i'll be sick of it from airplay before i've even listened to the CD twice. If there's another good track on it, well, that's ok, but for ~4min of enjoyment i'd better be wanting to listen to that track every day for the next month and not get sick of it. Seriously. Is it too much to ask that, if you're gonna sell a CD with 10 tracks on it, you actually try to put something worth listening to on all 10 tracks? You can charge me $10 a track if you want, but then i'm only gonna buy it if it's a *really* good track; the $10 for one track + filler line is just taking advantage of my possitive nature, and leaves me feeling cheated. So does that mean i pirate CDs over buying them? No, if i pirate CDs i do it for other reasons. But it does mean that with a few exceptions (Queens of the Stone Age, YEAH!) i don't buy new CDs. Pawn shops and used music stores will re-sell CDs $3-$8 a pop, and often don't mind you listening to them first, or selling them back (at a huge loss) if you don't like them later. And guess what - neither the music industry nor the original artist get anything for the CD i buy used. Tough. Try selling me something i want next time. :suss:
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
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Yeah I know, but what is the way to takle it? Lowering the price of CD's wont help because these people will simply carry on as before no matter what they may say now ("why pay when it is free and easy"), copy protection methods never work (not even in the short term), and even the idea of EPs and bundelling music DVDs with new relases just plain isn't working (which is a damned shame IMHO because almost every CD I have purcahsed in recent months has been worth ten times what I've paid for it for the content it offers)... so if hard-handed prosecution is not a vaiable option what is? If we carry on like this there will be no more music released by major international labels, and whilst I personally could probably survive my life merely playing the CD's I have already purchased and listening to a semi-talented copycat group playing down at my local, I hardly think that is a fair situation to condem our children to. And as you said in your previous reply, this doesn't just apply to music, it applies to software, games, and movies too. The big difference though is that software and games are actively (if on a somewhat small scale) protected by international law and the decent movies (which are the main ones I am seeing pirated around me) make billions the cinemas to support themselves. :mad: :((
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff wrote: Lowering the price of CD's wont help because these people will simply carry on as before no matter what they may say now You're wrong. Not all pirates will stop, but some will. Even if it's just for the sake of having the booklet. At the end of the day, it's about finding a median, and in the Australian case, the ACCC has come close to getting involved over how expensive our CD's are. Until the Aussie dollar died, I could import CD's from America for half the price of buying them locally, and that's with expensive express shipping. David Wulff wrote: so if hard-handed prosecution is not a vaiable option what is? Perhaps what the movie industry has done with DivX - put money into it and seek for the platform to grow so it is the best option available, and they can use it to stream movies for payment. Getting involved to the point of understanding the problem and seeking an intelligent solution. David Wulff wrote: If we carry on like this there will be no more music released by major international labels Possibly. That's called evolution. As I said above, there is nothing to stop a band producing their own album nowadays, and selling it online. They will get pirated as well, but there will be lower overhead, and the money will go direct to the creator of the music. That's about as good as it gets, in terms of trying to get people to have a conscience about it. David Wulff wrote: it applies to software, games, and movies too. Too true. Software is the one that suffers the most IMO, especially the gaming industry. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
David Wulff wrote: How much is that in real money? Over here I get CD's for an average of £8.50 a pop online, and about £10 - £12 on the highstreet. In my honest opinion that is extremely good value, even if I may only listen to one or two tracks with hindsight. It depends what you mean. Thirty dollars AU = about 10 pounds, BUT it's not really that simple. I don't think the comparison flows over to the cost of consumer goods generally, i.e. anything I bought from the UK would be hideously expensive once I did the conversion. I suspect that thinking of it as 30 pounds would not be far off the mark, in terms of cost to the individual in the country. David Wulff wrote: It's a new mentality towards these things that is being raised with my generation Nope - it's just that we used to have to put up with having to find someone who had the record and the drop of quality that came with copying to tape. Piracy is not new, just easier. David Wulff wrote: People steal because it doesn't cost them anything, and with the anonymity of the Internet they can steal safe in the knowledge that they will not be prosecuted for doing so. I agree - most people will steal music simply because they can, but the fact remains that in Australia, CD prices have been too high for a long, long time. Personally, I would buy more music if the price was less, and the net effect would be me spending more on music. David Wulff wrote: h.a.s. : 0.5.5 What does that mean ? :confused: David Wulff wrote: I seriously wish music companies would start a massive sweep against *ALL* online music pirates with fines of no less than £10 for each pirated track and a mandatory 30 day prison sentance for *anybody* who distributes illegal music LOL - do you think they wouldn't if they could ? I have concerns about the whole deal, and I agree that it's not right for people to steal intellectual property, but it's nothing new, and the sad fact is that the music industry has chosen a very poor path to try and deal with it, and has always and continues to treat it's customers with contempt. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw upChristian Graus wrote: I suspect that thinking of it as 30 pounds would not be far off the mark, in terms of cost to the individual in the country. Well that would be too much in most cases; I'd expect to pay thirty pounds for a game not a fourteen track CD. Christian Graus wrote: Piracy is not new, just easier. That was what I meant - I was referring to the proliferation of online piracy these last five years or so and the effect it has had on people's mentatilty. Online piracy is so easy to do and so anonymous that almost nobody seems to have *any* problem with it. It particularly disturbs me how so many software developers on this site openly pirate music yet they would not dream of being lenient on someone they caught pirating *their* software products. Wallet morals again. Christian Graus wrote: What does that mean ? [h.a.s.] It was my rating form my sig, which I didn't have active when I wrote that message. Christian Graus wrote: LOL - do you think they wouldn't if they could ? No, and I wish they could; I really do. Treat the thieving bastards that are killing what I can choose to freely listen to with contempt, not myself and others like me. The industry has gotten it all backwards so far - I'll agree to that.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
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David Wulff wrote: Over here I get CD's for an average of £8.50 a pop online, and about £10 - £12 on the highstreet. In my honest opinion that is extremely good value, even if I may only listen to one or two tracks with hindsight. Well, only your opinion determines what is good value for you, but the market (mostly) decides what the actual price is. And i'm hard pressed to find new CDs these days that are worth to *me* the $10-$15 i'd have to pay for them. If i only end up listening to the single then that's terrible value, as chances are i'll be sick of it from airplay before i've even listened to the CD twice. If there's another good track on it, well, that's ok, but for ~4min of enjoyment i'd better be wanting to listen to that track every day for the next month and not get sick of it. Seriously. Is it too much to ask that, if you're gonna sell a CD with 10 tracks on it, you actually try to put something worth listening to on all 10 tracks? You can charge me $10 a track if you want, but then i'm only gonna buy it if it's a *really* good track; the $10 for one track + filler line is just taking advantage of my possitive nature, and leaves me feeling cheated. So does that mean i pirate CDs over buying them? No, if i pirate CDs i do it for other reasons. But it does mean that with a few exceptions (Queens of the Stone Age, YEAH!) i don't buy new CDs. Pawn shops and used music stores will re-sell CDs $3-$8 a pop, and often don't mind you listening to them first, or selling them back (at a huge loss) if you don't like them later. And guess what - neither the music industry nor the original artist get anything for the CD i buy used. Tough. Try selling me something i want next time. :suss:
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
In theory, the sale of used CD's is also illegal, I believe. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Christian Graus wrote: I suspect that thinking of it as 30 pounds would not be far off the mark, in terms of cost to the individual in the country. Well that would be too much in most cases; I'd expect to pay thirty pounds for a game not a fourteen track CD. Christian Graus wrote: Piracy is not new, just easier. That was what I meant - I was referring to the proliferation of online piracy these last five years or so and the effect it has had on people's mentatilty. Online piracy is so easy to do and so anonymous that almost nobody seems to have *any* problem with it. It particularly disturbs me how so many software developers on this site openly pirate music yet they would not dream of being lenient on someone they caught pirating *their* software products. Wallet morals again. Christian Graus wrote: What does that mean ? [h.a.s.] It was my rating form my sig, which I didn't have active when I wrote that message. Christian Graus wrote: LOL - do you think they wouldn't if they could ? No, and I wish they could; I really do. Treat the thieving bastards that are killing what I can choose to freely listen to with contempt, not myself and others like me. The industry has gotten it all backwards so far - I'll agree to that.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff wrote: I'd expect to pay thirty pounds for a game not a fourteen track CD. Exactly. And it's been that way for a long time. Tapes are now $10, CD's are still $30, sometimes more. So you can see why in this country there is already resentment of the music industry. David Wulff wrote: Online piracy is so easy to do and so anonymous that almost nobody seems to have *any* problem with it. There was no percieved problem in the 80's, everyone did it. In fact, it was less likely to meet someone who would argue the artists case. David Wulff wrote: It particularly disturbs me how so many software developers on this site openly pirate music yet they would not dream of being lenient on someone they caught pirating *their* software products. Wallet morals again. I don't think it's quite that, it's more empathy. I have mp3's of albums I no longer own, there is no way I would ever run pirated software on any machine in my control. David Wulff wrote: It was my rating form my sig, which I didn't have active when I wrote that message. Ah.. I saw your post about it being smaller, although I see it there now. David Wulff wrote: Treat the thieving bastards that are killing what I can choose to freely listen to with contempt, not myself and others like me. What about people like me, who largely download stuff long out of print ? Or people who genuinely buy stuff if they download it and like it ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
Well surely it is high about time be made sure these dickheads realised that theft is theft, no matter how easy it may be or how many of your friends do it? The way things are currently heading the media companies are removing my rights, as a legtimate licensed owner, to use their media by introducing new encryption and copy-crippling tecnologies that wont affect the pirates, only the legitimate owners. Things are fast headed the American way - kill of our liberties to create an illusion of safety and security. In Europe this is *big* - BMG a massive German label is already crippling *every* CD it releases. Does this hamper the pirates? Not at all. They just wait for the uncrippled version to be released in the States and then send it around the globe ninety million times within thirty seconds. We, the good guys, are getting royally fucked up the arse by these pirates, and they aint using lubricant. Rob them blind and send them to prison for all I care - they are the ones breaking the law and choosing to convieniently remould their own so called "highly held" morals around their wallets. Why should I give a damn what happens to them? They obviously don't give a damn what happens to me (and I'm not easily made to feel this way). :mad:
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk "Apart from my kids, I have no sleeping problems" - Christian Graus
David Wulff wrote: The way things are currently heading the media companies are removing my rights Yer gonna hate this idea, but how 'bout avoiding the media companies for a bit if they're screwing you like this? Buying from them is only gonna encourage them further... And no, i'm not suggesting you pirate your next Neo-Metal-Angst-CD. Check out your local music scene, or if there isn't one MP3.com[^] or IndieLaunch[^]. There are a lot of groups out there doing fairly decent music (which is about the best i can hope for from top 40 these days...), and buying from them directly or through an alternate source might not be so bad... Here's even something to get you started. May not be your thing quite, but give it a listen: Jupiter's Eye[^]
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
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In theory, the sale of used CD's is also illegal, I believe. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Wouldn't suprise me, the bastards. X| But, i've been buying used CDs and books most of my life, and there doesn't seem to be any lack of venerable businesses to assist me in this. :)
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
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David Wulff wrote: Lowering the price of CD's wont help because these people will simply carry on as before no matter what they may say now You're wrong. Not all pirates will stop, but some will. Even if it's just for the sake of having the booklet. At the end of the day, it's about finding a median, and in the Australian case, the ACCC has come close to getting involved over how expensive our CD's are. Until the Aussie dollar died, I could import CD's from America for half the price of buying them locally, and that's with expensive express shipping. David Wulff wrote: so if hard-handed prosecution is not a vaiable option what is? Perhaps what the movie industry has done with DivX - put money into it and seek for the platform to grow so it is the best option available, and they can use it to stream movies for payment. Getting involved to the point of understanding the problem and seeking an intelligent solution. David Wulff wrote: If we carry on like this there will be no more music released by major international labels Possibly. That's called evolution. As I said above, there is nothing to stop a band producing their own album nowadays, and selling it online. They will get pirated as well, but there will be lower overhead, and the money will go direct to the creator of the music. That's about as good as it gets, in terms of trying to get people to have a conscience about it. David Wulff wrote: it applies to software, games, and movies too. Too true. Software is the one that suffers the most IMO, especially the gaming industry. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: You're wrong. Not all pirates will stop, but some will. Even if it's just for the sake of having the booklet Just how large is that "some"? I have offered to buy - outright - CDs for my friends in the past and they still choose to steal. They don't place any value in the CD itself, they just want to burn tracks onto CDRs and sell them to their friends for £3 a pop. I saw it all the time when I was at school - and that was three years ago when the whole online music stealing system was in it's infancy as far as they were concerned. Music has no discernable monetary value to a vast amount of people in my generation, except for selling it on. "Some" is not enough. Your (Australian) prices sound above the norm by a long way - that is something you need to sort out regionally and not take out on the global industry. Josh has said that ten dollars is too much for a CD with only a small number of tracks on it he will repeat-listen to - ten dollars to me is the price of a two litre bottle of coke and a pizza. Which gives you more entertainment and value for money - I know what I'd answer. Christian Graus wrote: Perhaps what the movie industry has done with DivX - put money into it and seek for the platform to grow so it is the best option available, and they can use it to stream movies for payment. Getting involved to the point of understanding the problem and seeking an intelligent solution. Most of these people aren't interested in streaming media if it costs any money at all, no matter how little. For the minority who would (and I'd love to do so for convienience) then it would be great, but would it justify the costs involved in doing so? Probably not for music - movies are far more difficult to find in any quality without entering the realms of gigabytes, entire songs can be send via e-mail in a number of milliseconds. Christian Graus wrote: That's about as good as it gets, in terms of trying to get people to have a conscience about it. I suspect most groups sign up with labels to get exposure and the higher profits associated with that.
David Wulff
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Christian Graus wrote: You're wrong. Not all pirates will stop, but some will. Even if it's just for the sake of having the booklet Just how large is that "some"? I have offered to buy - outright - CDs for my friends in the past and they still choose to steal. They don't place any value in the CD itself, they just want to burn tracks onto CDRs and sell them to their friends for £3 a pop. I saw it all the time when I was at school - and that was three years ago when the whole online music stealing system was in it's infancy as far as they were concerned. Music has no discernable monetary value to a vast amount of people in my generation, except for selling it on. "Some" is not enough. Your (Australian) prices sound above the norm by a long way - that is something you need to sort out regionally and not take out on the global industry. Josh has said that ten dollars is too much for a CD with only a small number of tracks on it he will repeat-listen to - ten dollars to me is the price of a two litre bottle of coke and a pizza. Which gives you more entertainment and value for money - I know what I'd answer. Christian Graus wrote: Perhaps what the movie industry has done with DivX - put money into it and seek for the platform to grow so it is the best option available, and they can use it to stream movies for payment. Getting involved to the point of understanding the problem and seeking an intelligent solution. Most of these people aren't interested in streaming media if it costs any money at all, no matter how little. For the minority who would (and I'd love to do so for convienience) then it would be great, but would it justify the costs involved in doing so? Probably not for music - movies are far more difficult to find in any quality without entering the realms of gigabytes, entire songs can be send via e-mail in a number of milliseconds. Christian Graus wrote: That's about as good as it gets, in terms of trying to get people to have a conscience about it. I suspect most groups sign up with labels to get exposure and the higher profits associated with that.
David Wulff
David Wulff wrote: ten dollars to me is the price of a two litre bottle of coke and a pizza For comparison, I can get a pizza and 2 litres of coke for about $8. A CD single costs $10 here. David Wulff wrote: Which gives you more entertainment and value for money - I know what I'd answer. Absolutely - I think we all spend too much on junk food, although I'm getting better. I think it's what you're used to, but a CD here has always been a major purchase, and with all consumer goods, there is a price ceiling that needs not be crossed if the mainstream are to buy a product. $30 for a CD is too high. David Wulff wrote: Most of these people aren't interested in streaming media if it costs any money at all, no matter how little. Probably. That's the same premise the gaming industry exists under as well. David Wulff wrote: Probably not for music - movies are far more difficult to find in any quality without entering the realms of gigabytes, entire songs can be send via e-mail in a number of milliseconds. Just to drop myself further in your view, I download a fair number of movies, and most are about 700 MB, and great quality. ( Let me add that the stuff I download, I go on to buy on DVD ). I doubt you can send a decent quality song in milliseconds, but your point is taken. David Wulff wrote: I suspect most groups sign up with labels to get exposure and the higher profits associated with that. You're looking at it from the wrong angle. Being signed used to be the only way to reach the masses. That is no longer so, although it remains so for substandard bands who need to be marketed in order to sell. They will be the losers. Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002 -
David Wulff wrote: The way things are currently heading the media companies are removing my rights Yer gonna hate this idea, but how 'bout avoiding the media companies for a bit if they're screwing you like this? Buying from them is only gonna encourage them further... And no, i'm not suggesting you pirate your next Neo-Metal-Angst-CD. Check out your local music scene, or if there isn't one MP3.com[^] or IndieLaunch[^]. There are a lot of groups out there doing fairly decent music (which is about the best i can hope for from top 40 these days...), and buying from them directly or through an alternate source might not be so bad... Here's even something to get you started. May not be your thing quite, but give it a listen: Jupiter's Eye[^]
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
Shog9 wrote: Yer gonna hate this idea, but how 'bout avoiding the media companies for a bit if they're screwing you like this? Buying from them is only gonna encourage them further... Because I can't find what I'm looking for elsewhere. I have yet to find groups on MP3.com or it's bretheren that can even lick the Clash's rectal sphincters, pass urine in the same building as Small Faces or Super Cat, or drink Rufus Thomas's excreted month-old sweat. I could find all of them (in far greater quanties than I could on in-production CD's) within two minutes using Kazaa if I lowered myself to it, or I could save up my pennies and buy a new one on CD each week instead of having extra macaroni on that pizza and two cans of coke instead of one, and not bitch because six of the fourteen tracks on the album don't appeal to my tastes. Shog9 wrote: Here's even something to get you started. May not be your thing quite, but give it a listen You're right, definately not my thing if the End Of The Beginning song is anything to go by. :-D
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
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Shog9 wrote: Yer gonna hate this idea, but how 'bout avoiding the media companies for a bit if they're screwing you like this? Buying from them is only gonna encourage them further... Because I can't find what I'm looking for elsewhere. I have yet to find groups on MP3.com or it's bretheren that can even lick the Clash's rectal sphincters, pass urine in the same building as Small Faces or Super Cat, or drink Rufus Thomas's excreted month-old sweat. I could find all of them (in far greater quanties than I could on in-production CD's) within two minutes using Kazaa if I lowered myself to it, or I could save up my pennies and buy a new one on CD each week instead of having extra macaroni on that pizza and two cans of coke instead of one, and not bitch because six of the fourteen tracks on the album don't appeal to my tastes. Shog9 wrote: Here's even something to get you started. May not be your thing quite, but give it a listen You're right, definately not my thing if the End Of The Beginning song is anything to go by. :-D
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk
David Wulff wrote: I could find all of them (in far greater quanties than I could on in-production CD's) within two minutes using Kazaa if I lowered myself to it So you won't even download music that you *can't* buy? What's the rational behind that? :confused:
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
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David Wulff wrote: I'd expect to pay thirty pounds for a game not a fourteen track CD. Exactly. And it's been that way for a long time. Tapes are now $10, CD's are still $30, sometimes more. So you can see why in this country there is already resentment of the music industry. David Wulff wrote: Online piracy is so easy to do and so anonymous that almost nobody seems to have *any* problem with it. There was no percieved problem in the 80's, everyone did it. In fact, it was less likely to meet someone who would argue the artists case. David Wulff wrote: It particularly disturbs me how so many software developers on this site openly pirate music yet they would not dream of being lenient on someone they caught pirating *their* software products. Wallet morals again. I don't think it's quite that, it's more empathy. I have mp3's of albums I no longer own, there is no way I would ever run pirated software on any machine in my control. David Wulff wrote: It was my rating form my sig, which I didn't have active when I wrote that message. Ah.. I saw your post about it being smaller, although I see it there now. David Wulff wrote: Treat the thieving bastards that are killing what I can choose to freely listen to with contempt, not myself and others like me. What about people like me, who largely download stuff long out of print ? Or people who genuinely buy stuff if they download it and like it ? Christian No offense, but I don't really want to encourage the creation of another VB developer. - Larry Antram 22 Oct 2002
C# will attract all comers, where VB is for IT Journalists and managers - Michael P Butler 05-12-2002
Again, you can screw up a C/C++ program just as easily as a VB program. OK, maybe not as easily, but it's certainly doable. - Jamie Nordmeyer - 15-Nov-2002Christian Graus wrote: In fact, it was less likely to meet someone who would argue the artists case. I'm not arguing the artists case, I'm arguing the ethical case, where just because you want something but can't afford it that doesn't give you the right to take it. I think your country's prices suck big time, but I don't beleive that gives you any more right to take what you want than I have the right to demand I get a Jag XKR rather than a Rover Metro merely because I think the Jag is overpriced for it's market. No I'm not going to don my rightous cap and say I worked hard to get where I am today, because I didn't. As a (young) kid I used to shoplift all sorts of crap because I wanted to have it but couldn't afford to pay for it. I stopped doing that the day my, now ex, friend stole a model car from me because he couldn't afford to buy one himself. It hit me - crime does not pay, not because you might get caught, but because it is a slippery road to hell which will continually corode your most strongly held ethics until you would kill someone to get their clothes without blinking an eyelid. I won't pretend - I don't buy music to help anyone but myself. I just hate to see good people fall into that trap without realising. Christian Graus wrote: What about people like me, who largely download stuff long out of print ? If it is not available then you are not stealing it are you. Christian Graus wrote: Or people who genuinely buy stuff if they download it and like it ? For the costs (bear with me) it is not worth demoing music like you would software. If you were genuinely going to buy it then again it would not be stealing, and as no "rent an album" system is currently in place thanks to these bleeding pirates. If it was then it would be, just as it is stealing downloading the latest movies and then buying the DVD when it is released. As it is, I choose to buy 2/3/4 CD compilations every couple of months that bridge onto artists and/or genres I am unfamiliar with and then take it from there if I hear anything I like, but again with your prices that is unlikely to be a very viable option for you. :(( By far the vast majority of the music I enjoy on my playlists and what have you has come from this approach.
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David Wulff wrote: I could find all of them (in far greater quanties than I could on in-production CD's) within two minutes using Kazaa if I lowered myself to it So you won't even download music that you *can't* buy? What's the rational behind that? :confused:
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Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under
Not at all. I can buy all of them, and if I can't find them online I can guarantee I can find them in my local family-run music store. I don't listen to any music so far that I cna't find, even if a little hard, but if I wanted to as I have said to Christian then no not at all. It is not stealing if it's genuinely not available.
David Wulff http://www.davidwulff.co.uk