The questions we get these days!
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Is it just me or not but in my day we didn't ask for help at the first hurdle and things were hard then, no internet, remember compiling 16 bit code for the large memory model? We had to find the answers ourselves. It strikes me it is too easy today to throw an ill-formed/undefined question at CP and expect an answer! What happened to research? What happened to thinking out a problem till you got the the very nub of the issue; because once you know the right question to ask, the answer almost suggests itself. I mean, linked lists, writing data to a file? Thats really simple stuff that anyone studying a programming course should e able to work out for themselves!
============================== Nothing to say.
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Is it just me or not but in my day we didn't ask for help at the first hurdle and things were hard then, no internet, remember compiling 16 bit code for the large memory model? We had to find the answers ourselves. It strikes me it is too easy today to throw an ill-formed/undefined question at CP and expect an answer! What happened to research? What happened to thinking out a problem till you got the the very nub of the issue; because once you know the right question to ask, the answer almost suggests itself. I mean, linked lists, writing data to a file? Thats really simple stuff that anyone studying a programming course should e able to work out for themselves!
============================== Nothing to say.
Well, you're right in that it's too easy to just shoot a question into the great Internet Void (tm) and sit back and wait for an answer. One of the things that kill me is the number of questions that claim to be "urgent" yet they're willing to wait for who known how many hours for somebody to notice their question on CP or anywhere else. If it's "urgent" you should be researching it yourself. Personally, I blame the instructors (since apparently many of these questioners are in classes somewhere). Linked Lists, Reading / Writing Files, this is all Computer Science 1 stuff yet there are no apparent "cookbook answers" or "class tutorials" on this stuff that explains it more fully. You'd think that problems with this stuff would be a predictable outcome so instructors should prepare to instruct on the topic. And maybe it's the proliferation of "online universities" where there is no physical contact with a "teaching staff" who can provide personalized instruction / answers. Back in the 60's, we had professors who lectured and Teaching Assistants who held other classes and a group of top students (Program Advisors) that sat at desks in the Comp Sci Department and helped fellow students through the homework assignments. I did that job for a couple of semesters. Who provides that service now? Code Project and other such sites.
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Well, you're right in that it's too easy to just shoot a question into the great Internet Void (tm) and sit back and wait for an answer. One of the things that kill me is the number of questions that claim to be "urgent" yet they're willing to wait for who known how many hours for somebody to notice their question on CP or anywhere else. If it's "urgent" you should be researching it yourself. Personally, I blame the instructors (since apparently many of these questioners are in classes somewhere). Linked Lists, Reading / Writing Files, this is all Computer Science 1 stuff yet there are no apparent "cookbook answers" or "class tutorials" on this stuff that explains it more fully. You'd think that problems with this stuff would be a predictable outcome so instructors should prepare to instruct on the topic. And maybe it's the proliferation of "online universities" where there is no physical contact with a "teaching staff" who can provide personalized instruction / answers. Back in the 60's, we had professors who lectured and Teaching Assistants who held other classes and a group of top students (Program Advisors) that sat at desks in the Comp Sci Department and helped fellow students through the homework assignments. I did that job for a couple of semesters. Who provides that service now? Code Project and other such sites.
Chuck O'Toole wrote:
Back in the 60's, we had professors who lectured
Back in the 60's I was learning programming on the job from my peers, and reading the manuals.
Unrequited desire is character building. OriginalGriff I'm sitting here giving you a standing ovation - Len Goodman
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Chuck O'Toole wrote:
Back in the 60's, we had professors who lectured
Back in the 60's I was learning programming on the job from my peers, and reading the manuals.
Unrequited desire is character building. OriginalGriff I'm sitting here giving you a standing ovation - Len Goodman
Ah yes, the good old days when my bedtime reading was the IBM 7090 Principles of Operation manual :) Back then, Computer Science wasn't it's own discipline but fell under the Math Department (they didn't know where else to put it). And OJT was the only way anybody got any training.
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Chuck O'Toole wrote:
Back in the 60's, we had professors who lectured
Back in the 60's I was learning programming on the job from my peers, and reading the manuals.
Unrequited desire is character building. OriginalGriff I'm sitting here giving you a standing ovation - Len Goodman
Richard MacCutchan wrote:
Back in the 60's I was
and I was in diapers, learning how to walk and talk.
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Is it just me or not but in my day we didn't ask for help at the first hurdle and things were hard then, no internet, remember compiling 16 bit code for the large memory model? We had to find the answers ourselves. It strikes me it is too easy today to throw an ill-formed/undefined question at CP and expect an answer! What happened to research? What happened to thinking out a problem till you got the the very nub of the issue; because once you know the right question to ask, the answer almost suggests itself. I mean, linked lists, writing data to a file? Thats really simple stuff that anyone studying a programming course should e able to work out for themselves!
============================== Nothing to say.
Erudite_Eric wrote:
Is it just me or not but in my day we didn't ask for help at the first hurdle and things were hard then, no internet, remember compiling 16 bit code for the large memory model? We had to find the answers ourselves.
First because there were very few resources. Second because it was often difficult to access those resources. Third there were far fewer people doing it.
Erudite_Eric wrote:
It strikes me it is too easy today to throw an ill-formed/undefined question at CP and expect an answer! What happened to research? What happened to thinking out a problem till you got the the very nub of the issue; because once you know the right question to ask, the answer almost suggests itself.
Based on that argument every doctor would learn solely by reading books and experimenting. The reason people didn't use resources long ago was because they didn't exist long ago. The reason that they use them now is because they exist now.
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Erudite_Eric wrote:
Is it just me or not but in my day we didn't ask for help at the first hurdle and things were hard then, no internet, remember compiling 16 bit code for the large memory model? We had to find the answers ourselves.
First because there were very few resources. Second because it was often difficult to access those resources. Third there were far fewer people doing it.
Erudite_Eric wrote:
It strikes me it is too easy today to throw an ill-formed/undefined question at CP and expect an answer! What happened to research? What happened to thinking out a problem till you got the the very nub of the issue; because once you know the right question to ask, the answer almost suggests itself.
Based on that argument every doctor would learn solely by reading books and experimenting. The reason people didn't use resources long ago was because they didn't exist long ago. The reason that they use them now is because they exist now.
jschell wrote:
Based on that argument every doctor would learn solely by reading books and experimenting.
Call me old fashioned but I wouldn't wanted to be treated by a doctor that got his answers off of WebMD or other Medical BBS. Who knows what quality of answer they'd get there. Nope, I want doctors taught by experienced professors in University Medical Schools, preferably ones attached to real hospitals so the students can do "rounds" with actual doctors. That's how they learn. That's the analagous discussion to what's here. Would you hire a programmer who said "I learned everything I know from Code Project"? I wouldn't. Have I picked up things here or learned something I didn't know, sure I have. But CP is the *last* place I come to, not the first.
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Is it just me or not but in my day we didn't ask for help at the first hurdle and things were hard then, no internet, remember compiling 16 bit code for the large memory model? We had to find the answers ourselves. It strikes me it is too easy today to throw an ill-formed/undefined question at CP and expect an answer! What happened to research? What happened to thinking out a problem till you got the the very nub of the issue; because once you know the right question to ask, the answer almost suggests itself. I mean, linked lists, writing data to a file? Thats really simple stuff that anyone studying a programming course should e able to work out for themselves!
============================== Nothing to say.
Touchè I was just thinking last night that I miss the days of UseNet. One learned fairly quickly from some really brutal responses what was and was not acceptable. Moreover, flame-wars and grilling the truly inept were seen as sport. But now, since we all have to play nicely the standard has stooped to that of the lowliest competitor - bring back the days of measure-up or be chewed-up and spat-out! The sum total of the documentation/help I had available when starting out were: The help file for Turbo Pascal 6.0, the help file for Borland c++ 3.1 and (the one I spent most time with) the commented output of Sourer, a dissasembler whose serial number I still recall now some 19 years after first getting it B309868-YTHT
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Is it just me or not but in my day we didn't ask for help at the first hurdle and things were hard then, no internet, remember compiling 16 bit code for the large memory model? We had to find the answers ourselves. It strikes me it is too easy today to throw an ill-formed/undefined question at CP and expect an answer! What happened to research? What happened to thinking out a problem till you got the the very nub of the issue; because once you know the right question to ask, the answer almost suggests itself. I mean, linked lists, writing data to a file? Thats really simple stuff that anyone studying a programming course should e able to work out for themselves!
============================== Nothing to say.
Well on one hand, the group of people here are very helpful, and I consider you all to be the old school guard, the last remaining source of quality help left for this subject. Getting quality help is so hard now days, because there are very few people left that are willing to spend some time giving back to the community. I know there are thousands of well qualified coders in this country, but I have no clue what they do with their spare time. I'm always searching for programmers here where I live, but I can't really find any. On the other hand, there are thousands of entry level programmers here where I live, and even more worldwide online jam packing other forums to the point of saturation. About 10% of the decent questions get answered, and the other 90% just sit there and fade away, because the question makes no sense. I suspect it boils down to economics, in which they sold a program really cheap, and are not able to deliver a working prototype to get paid. So they get hostile and start making extreme demands. I see that spilling over to CJ now on the Web Development forum, and suspect it may get worst. I know one day in the future, there won't be enough masters left to teach the students, because demand for programs now it at an all time high.
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jschell wrote:
Based on that argument every doctor would learn solely by reading books and experimenting.
Call me old fashioned but I wouldn't wanted to be treated by a doctor that got his answers off of WebMD or other Medical BBS. Who knows what quality of answer they'd get there. Nope, I want doctors taught by experienced professors in University Medical Schools, preferably ones attached to real hospitals so the students can do "rounds" with actual doctors. That's how they learn. That's the analagous discussion to what's here. Would you hire a programmer who said "I learned everything I know from Code Project"? I wouldn't. Have I picked up things here or learned something I didn't know, sure I have. But CP is the *last* place I come to, not the first.
Chuck O'Toole wrote:
But CP is the *last* place I come to, not the first
Amen!
Why is common sense not common? Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level where they are an expert. Sometimes it takes a lot of work to be lazy Please stand in front of my pistol, smile and wait for the flash - JSOP 2012
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Is it just me or not but in my day we didn't ask for help at the first hurdle and things were hard then, no internet, remember compiling 16 bit code for the large memory model? We had to find the answers ourselves. It strikes me it is too easy today to throw an ill-formed/undefined question at CP and expect an answer! What happened to research? What happened to thinking out a problem till you got the the very nub of the issue; because once you know the right question to ask, the answer almost suggests itself. I mean, linked lists, writing data to a file? Thats really simple stuff that anyone studying a programming course should e able to work out for themselves!
============================== Nothing to say.
Erudite_Eric wrote:
work out for themselves
I am sensing a touch of frustration.....
Why is common sense not common? Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level where they are an expert. Sometimes it takes a lot of work to be lazy Please stand in front of my pistol, smile and wait for the flash - JSOP 2012
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jschell wrote:
Based on that argument every doctor would learn solely by reading books and experimenting.
Call me old fashioned but I wouldn't wanted to be treated by a doctor that got his answers off of WebMD or other Medical BBS. Who knows what quality of answer they'd get there. Nope, I want doctors taught by experienced professors in University Medical Schools, preferably ones attached to real hospitals so the students can do "rounds" with actual doctors. That's how they learn. That's the analagous discussion to what's here. Would you hire a programmer who said "I learned everything I know from Code Project"? I wouldn't. Have I picked up things here or learned something I didn't know, sure I have. But CP is the *last* place I come to, not the first.
Many hobbyists are more skilled and/or knowledgeable in what they do than professionals. Why? The hobbyist always loves what he does. The professional loved it once, but now it's just a job that gets bread on the table. Of course there's many great professionals too, but I wouldn't trust a professional more than I would trust a fanatic hobbyist. I learned almost everything I know from CP and I spent last saturday fixing code from a Microsoft Certified *insert some titles here*. And it isn't the first time I fixed her code either.
It's an OO world.
public class Naerling : Lazy<Person>{
public void DoWork(){ throw new NotImplementedException(); }
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Is it just me or not but in my day we didn't ask for help at the first hurdle and things were hard then, no internet, remember compiling 16 bit code for the large memory model? We had to find the answers ourselves. It strikes me it is too easy today to throw an ill-formed/undefined question at CP and expect an answer! What happened to research? What happened to thinking out a problem till you got the the very nub of the issue; because once you know the right question to ask, the answer almost suggests itself. I mean, linked lists, writing data to a file? Thats really simple stuff that anyone studying a programming course should e able to work out for themselves!
============================== Nothing to say.
My problem with these people is not that they don't know about linked lists or writing data to a file, but that they don't have the decency to write a decent question. Tagging a question with 'C#', 'VB' and 'SQL' and asking "How do I file write to file on computer?", usually in the topic with sometimes an empty body... Or something like "How write file? Plz help!" I'm willing to answer ANY question (I have the answer to) as long as that question is well formulated, clear and to the point. By the way, why put this in the C / C++ / MFC forum? People of any language ask 'stupid' questions like that :sigh:
It's an OO world.
public class Naerling : Lazy<Person>{
public void DoWork(){ throw new NotImplementedException(); }
} -
Is it just me or not but in my day we didn't ask for help at the first hurdle and things were hard then, no internet, remember compiling 16 bit code for the large memory model? We had to find the answers ourselves. It strikes me it is too easy today to throw an ill-formed/undefined question at CP and expect an answer! What happened to research? What happened to thinking out a problem till you got the the very nub of the issue; because once you know the right question to ask, the answer almost suggests itself. I mean, linked lists, writing data to a file? Thats really simple stuff that anyone studying a programming course should e able to work out for themselves!
============================== Nothing to say.
It's a human condition! People are inherently lazy and when encountering an obstacle, will naturally tend towards the easiest way out.
No one knows the things of a man except the spirit of that man; likewise no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God whom we have received. He who is joined to the Lord, is ONE Spirit with him(Jesus) - 1Cor 2:10-16 & 6:17
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Erudite_Eric wrote:
Is it just me or not but in my day we didn't ask for help at the first hurdle and things were hard then, no internet, remember compiling 16 bit code for the large memory model? We had to find the answers ourselves.
First because there were very few resources. Second because it was often difficult to access those resources. Third there were far fewer people doing it.
Erudite_Eric wrote:
It strikes me it is too easy today to throw an ill-formed/undefined question at CP and expect an answer! What happened to research? What happened to thinking out a problem till you got the the very nub of the issue; because once you know the right question to ask, the answer almost suggests itself.
Based on that argument every doctor would learn solely by reading books and experimenting. The reason people didn't use resources long ago was because they didn't exist long ago. The reason that they use them now is because they exist now.
If a doctor posted an 'urgentz pls' post I would go find another doctor. Actually what they use is a vast library of books and material to check symptoms causes and cures. What we did in our day was use books too, and work it out ourselves by trying things out. It seems that experimentation today is dead.
============================== Nothing to say.
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Touchè I was just thinking last night that I miss the days of UseNet. One learned fairly quickly from some really brutal responses what was and was not acceptable. Moreover, flame-wars and grilling the truly inept were seen as sport. But now, since we all have to play nicely the standard has stooped to that of the lowliest competitor - bring back the days of measure-up or be chewed-up and spat-out! The sum total of the documentation/help I had available when starting out were: The help file for Turbo Pascal 6.0, the help file for Borland c++ 3.1 and (the one I spent most time with) the commented output of Sourer, a dissasembler whose serial number I still recall now some 19 years after first getting it B309868-YTHT
Yeah. When I was learning on the job you couldnt go ask a senior guy a question unless you had it formed really well, had investigated all the angles and really come to the crux of the problem. If not you would get chewed up badly. As you should be.
============================== Nothing to say.
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Is it just me or not but in my day we didn't ask for help at the first hurdle and things were hard then, no internet, remember compiling 16 bit code for the large memory model? We had to find the answers ourselves. It strikes me it is too easy today to throw an ill-formed/undefined question at CP and expect an answer! What happened to research? What happened to thinking out a problem till you got the the very nub of the issue; because once you know the right question to ask, the answer almost suggests itself. I mean, linked lists, writing data to a file? Thats really simple stuff that anyone studying a programming course should e able to work out for themselves!
============================== Nothing to say.
Yeah, and you could get a really big one for a nickel, too. But perhaps I should stay on point.
About eight years ago, it was my duty to assist a young graduate student, who had an "intern" position with my employer, in getting to work and back each day. One day while we were in transit, this intern, whom we shall call Miss Smith, stunned me by saying with no trace of embarrassment that she never could understand the difference between disk storage and RAM, or why it was important.
Yes, you read that right. I'll wait while you unswallow your tongues.
Mind you, Miss Smith was quite intelligent, on the verge of receiving a Master's degree in Computer Science. She was near to completing a major, much needed transformation of our employer's extensive documentation database. But her education in Computer Science had exposed her only to interpretive tools such as Visual Basic, Access, and Excel. She had never had to run a compiler or linkage editor. She had never had to debug a program interactively. She didn't know what "assembly language" is. In short, she had never had to grapple with the physical reality underneath the virtual world maintained by her interpretive tools.
Yet Miss Smith's skills with those tools were considerable and quite valuable. I have no doubt that she received her Master's degree, and went on to become someone's well-paid employee, on the strength of what she knew.
At the time of the conversation mentioned above, I went into a great, gesture-filled, loathsomely detailed presentation on the differences between RAM and offline storage, why each was necessary and neither was sufficient, and what the divergence between the two could mean according to circumstances. It took the whole of an hour's ride, and I wasn't nearly finished when Miss Smith wished me a good evening, stepped gracefully out of my car, and fled screaming in terror for her dorm room. To this day, I can't be sure that she grasped any fraction of what I said...or, in all candor, whether it would have mattered if she hadn't.
It was possible for Miss Smith to get by without the knowledge under discussion because the tools with which she worked made it unnecessary. Whether it will ever become necessary is questionable; indeed, it becomes less and less likely as time passes and developers' tools increase further in power.
Now, what was that about linked lists?
(This message is programming you in ways you cannot detect. Be afraid.)
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Is it just me or not but in my day we didn't ask for help at the first hurdle and things were hard then, no internet, remember compiling 16 bit code for the large memory model? We had to find the answers ourselves. It strikes me it is too easy today to throw an ill-formed/undefined question at CP and expect an answer! What happened to research? What happened to thinking out a problem till you got the the very nub of the issue; because once you know the right question to ask, the answer almost suggests itself. I mean, linked lists, writing data to a file? Thats really simple stuff that anyone studying a programming course should e able to work out for themselves!
============================== Nothing to say.
Perhaps this a case of "preservation bias"? Today any reasonably smart person with an "average" problem can find answers by themselves (by searching web forums, online books, Wikipedia, etc). Therefore there's a world of questions that get answered without ever being registered (e.g. by being posted to a forum). With the middle ground all but covered, questions will virtually always come up from the extremes: 1. Very difficult and/or novel questions from very smart people, who did look for references but couldn't find any; 2. Trivial problems from very stupid people, who couldn't bother to (or didn't realize they could) look it up by themselves. The state of mankind being what it is, it's not hard to figure that type 2 questions will come up much more often than type 1.
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Perhaps this a case of "preservation bias"? Today any reasonably smart person with an "average" problem can find answers by themselves (by searching web forums, online books, Wikipedia, etc). Therefore there's a world of questions that get answered without ever being registered (e.g. by being posted to a forum). With the middle ground all but covered, questions will virtually always come up from the extremes: 1. Very difficult and/or novel questions from very smart people, who did look for references but couldn't find any; 2. Trivial problems from very stupid people, who couldn't bother to (or didn't realize they could) look it up by themselves. The state of mankind being what it is, it's not hard to figure that type 2 questions will come up much more often than type 1.
The problem with type 1 is that those questions usually involve a specific scenario which most potential repliers have never encountered. The best you can hope for then is that somebody actually gives the question some real thought and comes up with something.
I'm invincible, I can't be vinced
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Perhaps this a case of "preservation bias"? Today any reasonably smart person with an "average" problem can find answers by themselves (by searching web forums, online books, Wikipedia, etc). Therefore there's a world of questions that get answered without ever being registered (e.g. by being posted to a forum). With the middle ground all but covered, questions will virtually always come up from the extremes: 1. Very difficult and/or novel questions from very smart people, who did look for references but couldn't find any; 2. Trivial problems from very stupid people, who couldn't bother to (or didn't realize they could) look it up by themselves. The state of mankind being what it is, it's not hard to figure that type 2 questions will come up much more often than type 1.
Definitely. 1) Find it on Google (with multiple well-worded searches) 2) Ask someone on a programming chatroom. 3) Then move to a forum. That's my standard anywho. So far all I've needed to stick for public reading over the internet is a request for a bitstack writing/reading formula on cplusplus.com. I'm forever helping people on the chatrooms, generally unstructured questions are easier to receive there. The only problem is there's no way to optimise your code without someone more experienced looking at it. I've replaced fwrite() with fputs() and malloc() with calloc() thanks to chatroom coders. If you're a regular who helps others, the veterans are happy to help you. PS: My bitstack question probably was the only Type 1 I've encountered. See it here. I did do a lot of research.
