The questions we get these days!
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Is it just me or not but in my day we didn't ask for help at the first hurdle and things were hard then, no internet, remember compiling 16 bit code for the large memory model? We had to find the answers ourselves. It strikes me it is too easy today to throw an ill-formed/undefined question at CP and expect an answer! What happened to research? What happened to thinking out a problem till you got the the very nub of the issue; because once you know the right question to ask, the answer almost suggests itself. I mean, linked lists, writing data to a file? Thats really simple stuff that anyone studying a programming course should e able to work out for themselves!
============================== Nothing to say.
It's a human condition! People are inherently lazy and when encountering an obstacle, will naturally tend towards the easiest way out.
No one knows the things of a man except the spirit of that man; likewise no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God whom we have received. He who is joined to the Lord, is ONE Spirit with him(Jesus) - 1Cor 2:10-16 & 6:17
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Erudite_Eric wrote:
Is it just me or not but in my day we didn't ask for help at the first hurdle and things were hard then, no internet, remember compiling 16 bit code for the large memory model? We had to find the answers ourselves.
First because there were very few resources. Second because it was often difficult to access those resources. Third there were far fewer people doing it.
Erudite_Eric wrote:
It strikes me it is too easy today to throw an ill-formed/undefined question at CP and expect an answer! What happened to research? What happened to thinking out a problem till you got the the very nub of the issue; because once you know the right question to ask, the answer almost suggests itself.
Based on that argument every doctor would learn solely by reading books and experimenting. The reason people didn't use resources long ago was because they didn't exist long ago. The reason that they use them now is because they exist now.
If a doctor posted an 'urgentz pls' post I would go find another doctor. Actually what they use is a vast library of books and material to check symptoms causes and cures. What we did in our day was use books too, and work it out ourselves by trying things out. It seems that experimentation today is dead.
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Touchè I was just thinking last night that I miss the days of UseNet. One learned fairly quickly from some really brutal responses what was and was not acceptable. Moreover, flame-wars and grilling the truly inept were seen as sport. But now, since we all have to play nicely the standard has stooped to that of the lowliest competitor - bring back the days of measure-up or be chewed-up and spat-out! The sum total of the documentation/help I had available when starting out were: The help file for Turbo Pascal 6.0, the help file for Borland c++ 3.1 and (the one I spent most time with) the commented output of Sourer, a dissasembler whose serial number I still recall now some 19 years after first getting it B309868-YTHT
Yeah. When I was learning on the job you couldnt go ask a senior guy a question unless you had it formed really well, had investigated all the angles and really come to the crux of the problem. If not you would get chewed up badly. As you should be.
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Is it just me or not but in my day we didn't ask for help at the first hurdle and things were hard then, no internet, remember compiling 16 bit code for the large memory model? We had to find the answers ourselves. It strikes me it is too easy today to throw an ill-formed/undefined question at CP and expect an answer! What happened to research? What happened to thinking out a problem till you got the the very nub of the issue; because once you know the right question to ask, the answer almost suggests itself. I mean, linked lists, writing data to a file? Thats really simple stuff that anyone studying a programming course should e able to work out for themselves!
============================== Nothing to say.
Yeah, and you could get a really big one for a nickel, too. But perhaps I should stay on point.
About eight years ago, it was my duty to assist a young graduate student, who had an "intern" position with my employer, in getting to work and back each day. One day while we were in transit, this intern, whom we shall call Miss Smith, stunned me by saying with no trace of embarrassment that she never could understand the difference between disk storage and RAM, or why it was important.
Yes, you read that right. I'll wait while you unswallow your tongues.
Mind you, Miss Smith was quite intelligent, on the verge of receiving a Master's degree in Computer Science. She was near to completing a major, much needed transformation of our employer's extensive documentation database. But her education in Computer Science had exposed her only to interpretive tools such as Visual Basic, Access, and Excel. She had never had to run a compiler or linkage editor. She had never had to debug a program interactively. She didn't know what "assembly language" is. In short, she had never had to grapple with the physical reality underneath the virtual world maintained by her interpretive tools.
Yet Miss Smith's skills with those tools were considerable and quite valuable. I have no doubt that she received her Master's degree, and went on to become someone's well-paid employee, on the strength of what she knew.
At the time of the conversation mentioned above, I went into a great, gesture-filled, loathsomely detailed presentation on the differences between RAM and offline storage, why each was necessary and neither was sufficient, and what the divergence between the two could mean according to circumstances. It took the whole of an hour's ride, and I wasn't nearly finished when Miss Smith wished me a good evening, stepped gracefully out of my car, and fled screaming in terror for her dorm room. To this day, I can't be sure that she grasped any fraction of what I said...or, in all candor, whether it would have mattered if she hadn't.
It was possible for Miss Smith to get by without the knowledge under discussion because the tools with which she worked made it unnecessary. Whether it will ever become necessary is questionable; indeed, it becomes less and less likely as time passes and developers' tools increase further in power.
Now, what was that about linked lists?
(This message is programming you in ways you cannot detect. Be afraid.)
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Is it just me or not but in my day we didn't ask for help at the first hurdle and things were hard then, no internet, remember compiling 16 bit code for the large memory model? We had to find the answers ourselves. It strikes me it is too easy today to throw an ill-formed/undefined question at CP and expect an answer! What happened to research? What happened to thinking out a problem till you got the the very nub of the issue; because once you know the right question to ask, the answer almost suggests itself. I mean, linked lists, writing data to a file? Thats really simple stuff that anyone studying a programming course should e able to work out for themselves!
============================== Nothing to say.
Perhaps this a case of "preservation bias"? Today any reasonably smart person with an "average" problem can find answers by themselves (by searching web forums, online books, Wikipedia, etc). Therefore there's a world of questions that get answered without ever being registered (e.g. by being posted to a forum). With the middle ground all but covered, questions will virtually always come up from the extremes: 1. Very difficult and/or novel questions from very smart people, who did look for references but couldn't find any; 2. Trivial problems from very stupid people, who couldn't bother to (or didn't realize they could) look it up by themselves. The state of mankind being what it is, it's not hard to figure that type 2 questions will come up much more often than type 1.
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Perhaps this a case of "preservation bias"? Today any reasonably smart person with an "average" problem can find answers by themselves (by searching web forums, online books, Wikipedia, etc). Therefore there's a world of questions that get answered without ever being registered (e.g. by being posted to a forum). With the middle ground all but covered, questions will virtually always come up from the extremes: 1. Very difficult and/or novel questions from very smart people, who did look for references but couldn't find any; 2. Trivial problems from very stupid people, who couldn't bother to (or didn't realize they could) look it up by themselves. The state of mankind being what it is, it's not hard to figure that type 2 questions will come up much more often than type 1.
The problem with type 1 is that those questions usually involve a specific scenario which most potential repliers have never encountered. The best you can hope for then is that somebody actually gives the question some real thought and comes up with something.
I'm invincible, I can't be vinced
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Perhaps this a case of "preservation bias"? Today any reasonably smart person with an "average" problem can find answers by themselves (by searching web forums, online books, Wikipedia, etc). Therefore there's a world of questions that get answered without ever being registered (e.g. by being posted to a forum). With the middle ground all but covered, questions will virtually always come up from the extremes: 1. Very difficult and/or novel questions from very smart people, who did look for references but couldn't find any; 2. Trivial problems from very stupid people, who couldn't bother to (or didn't realize they could) look it up by themselves. The state of mankind being what it is, it's not hard to figure that type 2 questions will come up much more often than type 1.
Definitely. 1) Find it on Google (with multiple well-worded searches) 2) Ask someone on a programming chatroom. 3) Then move to a forum. That's my standard anywho. So far all I've needed to stick for public reading over the internet is a request for a bitstack writing/reading formula on cplusplus.com. I'm forever helping people on the chatrooms, generally unstructured questions are easier to receive there. The only problem is there's no way to optimise your code without someone more experienced looking at it. I've replaced fwrite() with fputs() and malloc() with calloc() thanks to chatroom coders. If you're a regular who helps others, the veterans are happy to help you. PS: My bitstack question probably was the only Type 1 I've encountered. See it here. I did do a lot of research.
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Is it just me or not but in my day we didn't ask for help at the first hurdle and things were hard then, no internet, remember compiling 16 bit code for the large memory model? We had to find the answers ourselves. It strikes me it is too easy today to throw an ill-formed/undefined question at CP and expect an answer! What happened to research? What happened to thinking out a problem till you got the the very nub of the issue; because once you know the right question to ask, the answer almost suggests itself. I mean, linked lists, writing data to a file? Thats really simple stuff that anyone studying a programming course should e able to work out for themselves!
============================== Nothing to say.
When speaking internally I find it's a matter of balance. If there's a team member who has an unresolved issue there is some benefit in them researching on their own to get a solution. However, this takes time and can impact the project timeline and budget. At some point you want them to speak up and say "hey, I could use some help". On the other hand, if they don't learn to research and solve their own problems they'll never become a decent dev. I don't think there's a simple answer to this - if anyone has one I'd be interested to hear. On the topic of stupid questions on forums, especially those marked as urgent, I tend to agree with more of the replies I've seen here... people have become lazy and want others to do the work for them. The number of simple questions that I've seen that should be known by anyone that has taken CompSci 101, read an intro book to programming, or is capable of being answered through the most basic of Google searches, deserves to be flamed and ridiculed. My personal favorites are the ones where someone replies with an answer and the original poster asks for more clarification and sample code because they don't understand (ie. will you do my homework for me?). At that point I'm thinking "you've been given the answer - take the time to understand it on your own time or hire someone to do it for you, but don't expect someone to do YOUR work for free". Maybe I'm being cynical? "There's no such thing as stupid questions... only stupid people."
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Perhaps this a case of "preservation bias"? Today any reasonably smart person with an "average" problem can find answers by themselves (by searching web forums, online books, Wikipedia, etc). Therefore there's a world of questions that get answered without ever being registered (e.g. by being posted to a forum). With the middle ground all but covered, questions will virtually always come up from the extremes: 1. Very difficult and/or novel questions from very smart people, who did look for references but couldn't find any; 2. Trivial problems from very stupid people, who couldn't bother to (or didn't realize they could) look it up by themselves. The state of mankind being what it is, it's not hard to figure that type 2 questions will come up much more often than type 1.
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Well, you're right in that it's too easy to just shoot a question into the great Internet Void (tm) and sit back and wait for an answer. One of the things that kill me is the number of questions that claim to be "urgent" yet they're willing to wait for who known how many hours for somebody to notice their question on CP or anywhere else. If it's "urgent" you should be researching it yourself. Personally, I blame the instructors (since apparently many of these questioners are in classes somewhere). Linked Lists, Reading / Writing Files, this is all Computer Science 1 stuff yet there are no apparent "cookbook answers" or "class tutorials" on this stuff that explains it more fully. You'd think that problems with this stuff would be a predictable outcome so instructors should prepare to instruct on the topic. And maybe it's the proliferation of "online universities" where there is no physical contact with a "teaching staff" who can provide personalized instruction / answers. Back in the 60's, we had professors who lectured and Teaching Assistants who held other classes and a group of top students (Program Advisors) that sat at desks in the Comp Sci Department and helped fellow students through the homework assignments. I did that job for a couple of semesters. Who provides that service now? Code Project and other such sites.
In my college course, the instructor was around for class, then vanished, leaving 2 or 3 of us to help the rest. How I wish Google had existed then.
I need an app that will automatically deliver a new BBBBBBBBaBB (beautiful blonde bimbo brandishing bountiful bobbing bare breasts and bodacious butt) every day. John Simmons / outlaw programmer
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Is it just me or not but in my day we didn't ask for help at the first hurdle and things were hard then, no internet, remember compiling 16 bit code for the large memory model? We had to find the answers ourselves. It strikes me it is too easy today to throw an ill-formed/undefined question at CP and expect an answer! What happened to research? What happened to thinking out a problem till you got the the very nub of the issue; because once you know the right question to ask, the answer almost suggests itself. I mean, linked lists, writing data to a file? Thats really simple stuff that anyone studying a programming course should e able to work out for themselves!
============================== Nothing to say.
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The problem with type 1 is that those questions usually involve a specific scenario which most potential repliers have never encountered. The best you can hope for then is that somebody actually gives the question some real thought and comes up with something.
I'm invincible, I can't be vinced
Sure, but if all we ever got were questions of the type "wow, I've never thought of that, let me hack on it a bit", then Eric would be a lot less exasperated about what he sees on the forums. My point is, the reason we see so many dumb-ass questions these days (my hypothesis goes) is not because people in general have become dumber, but because reasonably smart people get answers to their reasonably difficult questions by looking them up on the web, so we're left with the lazy-asses who couldn't even bother to Google the damn thing, plus the occasional bright mind with an actually novel question.
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Is it just me or not but in my day we didn't ask for help at the first hurdle and things were hard then, no internet, remember compiling 16 bit code for the large memory model? We had to find the answers ourselves. It strikes me it is too easy today to throw an ill-formed/undefined question at CP and expect an answer! What happened to research? What happened to thinking out a problem till you got the the very nub of the issue; because once you know the right question to ask, the answer almost suggests itself. I mean, linked lists, writing data to a file? Thats really simple stuff that anyone studying a programming course should e able to work out for themselves!
============================== Nothing to say.
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Agreed. Though with regards to Type 2 - if they're intelligent enough to find a forum, signup for an account, verify the account, and post a question, one would think they'd know how to use Google!
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It's a human condition! People are inherently lazy and when encountering an obstacle, will naturally tend towards the easiest way out.
No one knows the things of a man except the spirit of that man; likewise no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God whom we have received. He who is joined to the Lord, is ONE Spirit with him(Jesus) - 1Cor 2:10-16 & 6:17
zaphnath wrote:
People are inherently lazy and when encountering an obstacle, will naturally tend towards the easiest way out.
Just like water and electricity.
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"Show me a community that obeys the Ten Commandments and I'll show you a less crowded prison system." - Anonymous
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When speaking internally I find it's a matter of balance. If there's a team member who has an unresolved issue there is some benefit in them researching on their own to get a solution. However, this takes time and can impact the project timeline and budget. At some point you want them to speak up and say "hey, I could use some help". On the other hand, if they don't learn to research and solve their own problems they'll never become a decent dev. I don't think there's a simple answer to this - if anyone has one I'd be interested to hear. On the topic of stupid questions on forums, especially those marked as urgent, I tend to agree with more of the replies I've seen here... people have become lazy and want others to do the work for them. The number of simple questions that I've seen that should be known by anyone that has taken CompSci 101, read an intro book to programming, or is capable of being answered through the most basic of Google searches, deserves to be flamed and ridiculed. My personal favorites are the ones where someone replies with an answer and the original poster asks for more clarification and sample code because they don't understand (ie. will you do my homework for me?). At that point I'm thinking "you've been given the answer - take the time to understand it on your own time or hire someone to do it for you, but don't expect someone to do YOUR work for free". Maybe I'm being cynical? "There's no such thing as stupid questions... only stupid people."
G-Tek wrote:
"There's no such thing as stupid questions... only stupid people."
I've seen both.
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"Show me a community that obeys the Ten Commandments and I'll show you a less crowded prison system." - Anonymous
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Richard MacCutchan wrote:
Back in the 60's I was
and I was in diapers, learning how to walk and talk.
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Perhaps we should raise the bar for forum subscription then? How about adding a little questionnaire? I vote for questions on pointer arithmetic and template metaprogramming. ;P
Great idea... though I'd be concerned if I'd still be allowed on the forums :) Maybe something as simple as the "skill testing" questions that you see on various contents would be enough to weed out the most ridiculous forum questions... what is (6+3)x(10/2)?
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Sure, but if all we ever got were questions of the type "wow, I've never thought of that, let me hack on it a bit", then Eric would be a lot less exasperated about what he sees on the forums. My point is, the reason we see so many dumb-ass questions these days (my hypothesis goes) is not because people in general have become dumber, but because reasonably smart people get answers to their reasonably difficult questions by looking them up on the web, so we're left with the lazy-asses who couldn't even bother to Google the damn thing, plus the occasional bright mind with an actually novel question.
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It's a human condition! People are inherently lazy and when encountering an obstacle, will naturally tend towards the easiest way out.
No one knows the things of a man except the spirit of that man; likewise no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God whom we have received. He who is joined to the Lord, is ONE Spirit with him(Jesus) - 1Cor 2:10-16 & 6:17
Generally that may be so, but those people appear more like mountain climbers who discover that they are not fit enough at the foot of the mountain and then look for somebody to carry them to the peak. What's the point? Does it make them fitter or more experienced climbers? Where is the accomplishment? Laziness can only get unliked chores out of the way. This raises the question why all those people work on things they are not interested in and obviously have no ambition to put any work into. As far as I know there is nobody forcing them to do this at gunpoint.
I'm invincible, I can't be vinced
