UK Economy

Ed Gadziemski

when I say anything I get attacked by the hawks and the doves (for daring to try to find some middle ground) You middle-grounders disgust me. How dare you not take an extreme position? What gives you the right to proffer intelligent discourse? Who died and appointed you the god of neutrality? Why does your DNA lack the opinionative gene?

Paul Riley

KaЯl wrote: That's true we loose this tool at the national level, but we gained advantages which IMHO worth the adoption of the € Hmmm... I notice that this comment usually comes from the French or the Germans. I don't hear many other nations extolling the virtues of having joined the Euro. KaЯl wrote: £ is still an important money for historical reasons, I would quiet say semtimental ones. I would disagree on both counts. I have no sentimental attachment to sterling, nor do I think it gives us a lot of power. I'd give it up for another currency in an instant if I thought it would benefit the country (but if it were the US dollar, they'd have to vary the colours a bit, all green is very confusing). KaЯl wrote: But regarding the facts, what is the economical power of UK when facing US and European Union ones? Zero. And that's why we need Europe (or somebody, and I don't see many other offers on the table). However, the UK does have political, diplomatic, military and strategic power and that's why Europe (and, in another respect, the US) needs us :-D. Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows

Paul Riley

Ed Gadziemski wrote: You middle-grounders disgust me. How dare you not take an extreme position? What gives you the right to proffer intelligent discourse? Who died and appointed you the god of neutrality? Why does your DNA lack the opinionative gene? I'm sorry :((. I just can't help trying to see both (or all) sides of an argument. It's a condition, I must get help. Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows

KaRl

Paul Riley wrote: I notice that this comment usually comes from the French or the Germans I'm not so sure Germans are so enthusiastic, they probably miss the Mark. However that's true our both Nations want to build something together[^] I often read criticisms about a French Imperialism, using EU to gain power on Europe. As French, I've never had this feeling, and never heard about this plan. We want a strong Europe, as to regain the first position we, Europeans, lost thanks to WWs, as to definitively stop wars on our continent. It worked between France and Germany, so it's possible to everyone. Paul Riley wrote: I have no sentimental attachment to sterling, nor do I think it gives us a lot of power I was refering to the mediatic cover over the £, for example on financial TVs, which is still considered as a major currency. Paul Riley wrote: However, the UK does have political, diplomatic, military and strategic power and that's why Europe (and, in another respect, the US) needs us Europe needs UK, only if UK wants to be European. The time will come when your country will have to make a choice, choose a side, and accept the consequences. There could be a good partnership between France and UK about foreign policy and Defense matters. Since WWI we are used to it, and it's generally good for both countries, or at least it works (hardly, I agree, but it works :)) For the first one, it would obliged the Kingdom to think by itself rather to be stalinianly aligned on Bush positions, but is UK ready for this?

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

KaRl

Ed Gadziemski wrote: How dare you not take an extreme position? What gives you the right to proffer intelligent discourse? Who died and appointed you the god of neutrality? Cogito, ergo sum Anybody may has an opinion, and has the right to express it, when not hateful. Ed Gadziemski wrote: Why does your DNA lack the opinionative gene? Are you trying to support eugenism?

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

Lost User

OK, here's my 2p. Personally, I hold no sentimental attachment to the £, and, if it is in the best interests of our economy to join, then I think we should. However, Sterling does have that affect on many people who would see the loss of our currency as a massive blow to our independence. Speak to anyone my Dads age (he's in his 60s ... average Tory age! ;) ) and they'll go blue in the face arguing that we should keep the £ - perhaps letting sentiment cloud judgement. The media here in the UK will, unfortunately, decide whether we join the € or not. And, I have to say, while Rupert Murdoch owns a large chunk of the UK media (especially The Sun!), the chances of New Labour winning a € referendum anytime soon are bleak - hence there won't be one anytime soon. There is no way Tony will call a referendum unless he is VERY confident of victory. To swing the media behind the € is going to be a massive challenge if Tony does decide to go for it - or is getting so confident that he thinks it's a sure-thing? I think the € will happen eventually, but I cannot see it for a long time ... unless ...there is a secret government agenda to sink the £ and then offer the advantages of the € as a way out. Some may argue that this is already happening - devalue the £ and watch a stronger € win people over ... but this could also be a gamble in itself. We'll know soon enough though won't we? Isn't there going to be an announcement concerning the fabled "5 economic tests" in June? :confused:

When I am king, you will be first against the wall.

Paul Riley

KaЯl wrote: I'm not so sure Germans are so enthusiastic, they probably miss the Mark. I've spoken to more Germans than anyone over this and they've all surprised me in their huge support for the Euro. KaЯl wrote: However that's true our both Nations want to build something together[^] Uggh! You actually bought into this and yet you accuse us of not thinking for ourselves? X| KaЯl wrote: I often read criticisms about a French Imperialism, using EU to gain power on Europe. I wouldn't buy into that either, it's just another extreme opinion. I suspect the truth is that France, much like a heavy cannabis user, thinks with a "if we like it, everyone will" mentality. KaЯl wrote: Europe needs UK, only if UK wants to be European. The time will come when your country will have to make a choice, choose a side, and accept the consequences. I was with you up to "choose a side". I sincerely don't think it will ever go that far, and I think in the long run you'll largely have Britain to thank for it. Of course, you won't believe that until you see it and I don't expect you to. KaЯl wrote: There could be a good partnership between France and UK about foreign policy and Defense matters. Since WWI we are used to it, and it's generally good for both countries, or at least it works (hardly, I agree, but it works ) I'm inclined to agree with that. I think if France, the UK, and Germany could actually get together it would be an incredible force. I think if all of Europe could get together then it would be good for everyone. BUT, I think if France and others blindly trot towards the union without a consideration for each other then it bodes very badly for all. KaЯl wrote: For the first one, it would obliged the Kingdom to think by itself rather to be stalinianly aligned on Bush positions, but is UK ready for this? Oh PLEASE! :mad: You know Karl, we've had a lot of these conversations and we agree on about half the things we say and respectfully differ on others, but this attitude (from Europeans and Brits alike, not just from you) is really starting to bug me now. How is it any different from Bush's rhetoric? "If you don't agree with us then you're clearly not thinking and standing behind those we disagree with." Does it not occur to anyone that someone might hav

Paul Riley

KaЯl wrote: Anybody may has an opinion, and has the right to express it, when not hateful. Anybody has the right to express it when it is hateful, as long as I have the right to express my distaste for it by kicking them square in the nuts :-D. I'm kidding! Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows

KaRl

Paul Riley wrote: they've all surprised me in their huge support for the Euro. :cool:, it's a good news to me Paul Riley wrote: I suspect the truth is that France, much like a heavy cannabis user, thinks with a "if we like it, everyone will" mentality It's a way to express it :) The french republican culture is universalist. In 1789, the Declaration of Rights was for the Man and the Citizen, not for the Frenchmen only. The metric system was designed to be universal (and rational). And try before expressing an opinion! ;) Paul Riley wrote: You actually bought into this and yet you accuse us of not thinking for ourselves :confused: Paul Riley wrote: Of course, you won't believe that until you see it and I don't expect you to. I would be glad to see it. But since Margaret's area, it's true I'm not really convinced. You know, I don't forget UK is not England only :-D Remember the Auld alliance? Paul Riley wrote: I think if France, the UK, and Germany could actually get together it would be an incredible force Not only them! Italy, Spain, Portugal, Benelux, all the others may strength Europe, but they must have the political will to do it. Paul Riley wrote: BUT, I think if France and others blindly trot towards the union without a consideration for each other then it bodes very badly for all. If we are waiting for everybody agrees, we will wait for centuries before getting a result. The Rome treaty was signed in 1957, 44 years were needed to get what we have. But we have no more time, World is changing too fast, we have to evolve, or disappear. So someone has to kick into it, to let it move Paul Riley wrote: Have you ever heard a Brit say "look at France, not thinking for itself, blindly aligned on Saddam's position"? You're right, just Americans :) Paul Riley wrote: Have you thought about the fact that Blair does NOT blindly follow Bush on the Israel / Palestine issue Good point. Paul Riley wrote: maybe "we're" all no better than "they" are, deep down Of course we are no better, just a matter of point of view Paul Riley wrote: Chirac and Schroeder have been as disturbing in their anti-war rhetoric this week as Bush is with his over-zealous pro-war speeches. How does this make them better

Paul Riley

Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: Isn't there going to be an announcement concerning the fabled "5 economic tests" in June? Isn't there an announcement nearly every month on that? I'm pretty sure that Blair says to Brown "pick a number, 1 to 4" and goes with that. Have you ever looked at the exact wording of the tests? http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/Documents/The_Euro/euro_index_index.cfm[^] --- sustainable convergence between Britain and the economies of a single currency; whether there is sufficient flexibility to cope with economic change; the effect on investment; the impact on our financial services industry; and whether it is good for employment --- Absolutely stunning vagueness with which we can say every now and then "we're not ready yet" until we think we can win a referendum and then say "okay, we've got 5 this month" and set off loads of fireworks, etc. :-D But seriously, you had to ASSUME those five tests were absolutely necessary. I might have expected a few more as well (like whether we're still on speaking terms with France after we talk to George Bush and they invite Mugabe over for dinner ;P), but there you go. :suss: I had, until recently, always assumed the way he talked about these five tests that they were a lot more specific. Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows

KaRl

Robert Edward Caldecott wrote: while Rupert Murdoch owns a large chunk of the UK media (especially The Sun!), The Sun is a big piece of shit, a fresh one every day

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

Paul Riley

KaЯl wrote: And try before expressing an opinion! Unfortunately, one can't just try on the Euro for size and then decide they don't want it; it's just not that simple. The metric system does make a lot of sense and always did. I still can't get the idea of kilometres per hour but I'm sure I could if I had to :). KaЯl wrote: I would be glad to see it. But since Margaret's area, it's true I'm not really convinced. You know, I don't forget UK is not England only Remember the Auld alliance? Hey, no one else is interested, why should we be? An Englishman in much of Wales is positively alienated, in Scotland or Ireland they greet us like any tourist. The UK is England nowadays ;P KaЯl wrote: Not only them! Italy, Spain, Portugal, Benelux, all the others may strength Europe, but they must have the political will to do it. See, this is the problem. You keep saying that people have taken the risk and proved that it works and yet you then imply that the political will isn't there. And it isn't, because it hasn't worked yet. That proof will only begin to be valid when we are old and grey (or bald, in my case, there's no way my hair is staying long enough to go grey). KaЯl wrote: You're right, just Americans Even then not many, and only because some Americans clearly don't understand the rest of the world. We're closer and smaller and less isolationist, we understand the way Europe thinks. However, the major powers in Europe are as ignorant of our thinking as Americans are of theirs. KaЯl wrote: Of course we are no better, just a matter of point of view I would hope you are wrong there but I'm beginning to agree with you. KaЯl wrote: I believe it was more a signal about the new germano-french cooperation on foreign policy. They made noise to please the media, Iraq is fashionable in these days. I kind of felt that they looked like they were uniting against a common enemy (the perceived imperialism of the US) rather than uniting with each other. The enemy of my enemy is my friend and all that. Anti-Americanism is as fashionable (and reprehensible) in Europe as anti-Muslim sentiment is here and in the US. Apparently, in a survey of thousands of British teens recently, to the question "What is a muslim?" as many as 70% said "a terrorist" (or something equivalent).

Paul Riley

KaЯl wrote: The Sun is a big piece of shit, a fresh one every day That, unfortunately, is true of all papers across the world. In half the countries, they're government owned and full of propoganda; in the rest it's all about selling papers on celebrity gossip and hoping people will read and buy into the opinions that happen to be there. The sooner people realise that the press is (at least) half the problem and stop buying newspapers, the sooner the world will start sorting itself out. For example, one paper reported the other day (with horror) that an old woman, living on her own in a funded house was moved to a smaller flat so that a family of asylum seekers (confirmed, valid, accepted) could move into the house. I know several people who were horrified by this. When you ask people how they would feel if a single old woman was allowed to keep her three-bedroom council house while an ENGLISH family were moved into a one-bedroom flat... it's not quite the same. I have bought three newspapers (each for The Times 500 Richest List) since Diana died and The Sun wasted 21 pages on it while when Mother Teresa died it got two column inches on page 4. Screw em. Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows

KaRl

I didn't know the british press reached such a low level. I thought "The Sun" was not a newspaper, but a tabloid. If I remember well, Norway has an original solution. The state gives subventions to the newspaper #2, and not to the top-selling one, and this whatever the #1 and #2. Paul Riley wrote: in the rest it's all about selling papers on celebrity gossip and hoping people will read and buy into the opinions that happen to be there. I hope there's still newspapers around the world which try to make a good work. I think that Le Monde[^] is part of them. Just my opinion.

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

KaRl

Paul Riley wrote: Paul Riley wrote: one can't just try on the Euro I was refering to *ough* cannabis Paul Riley wrote: . And it isn't, because it hasn't worked yet There was a common political will to integrate european econony and it worked. Europe is done for the economy, but it has to be more than a free market, sadly there's no european consensus. I would hope you are wrong there but I'm beginning to agree with you. I will ever by an asshole for somebody. That's why I don't care about opinion of others on myself, I try just to be consistent with my conscience. Paul Riley wrote: if French teenagers were asked an equivalent question about Americans, you would get another stupid response It's quiet sure. They would also wear Nike shoes and Levis jeans, listen to the last Eminem album and watch our version of Big Brother. There's also a real fascination for the US Personally, I don't blame America. I blame Bush, I'm still able to make the difference. Paul Riley wrote: "the UK shouldn't join europe if it doesn't agree with us on everything" You're overreacting. You can't compare Nazi occupation with anything we are talking about. Isn't the base of democracy that the will of the majority is the will of the whole ? ;) The whole has to accept the decision of the majority You can't make specific laws for any country on everything, where would be the integration then? We just have to negociate the topics whose Europe should be responsible.

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

Shog9 0

KaЯl wrote: Paul Riley wrote: one can't just try on the Euro I was refering to *ough* cannabis Now, here's something that really hasn't been sufficiently covered - what *does* the Euro taste like when smoked? And *does* it work as an expensive-but-flashy substitute for rolling papers? These are important factors in the adoption of a new currency, and their lack of coverage is suspicious... what are THEY not telling us? :suss:

---

Shog9 The siren sings a lonely song - of all the wants and hungers The lust of love a brute desire - the ledge of life goes under

Paul Riley

KaЯl wrote: I didn't know the british press reached such a low level. I thought "The Sun" was not a newspaper, but a tabloid. The Sun is worse than most, but at least The Sun admits to being a tabloid. All papers have an agenda, just because they come folded doesn't change that. The Times at least is not a gossip rag, but it's still owned by the same people and still runs to the same agenda, it just aims at the market that wouldn't be seen dead reading a tabloid. Le Monde is no different, nor is any other Western paper, sorry to shatter your illusions. Paul Pleasently caving in, I come undone - Queens of the Stone Age, No One Knows

Paul Riley

KaЯl wrote: I was refering to *ough* cannabis Oh right, sure, sorry... tried that loads of times. Used to be that heavy user I was talking about that used to think that because I loved it everyone should try it. :-D KaЯl wrote: There was a common political will to integrate european econony and it worked. Europe is done for the economy, but it has to be more than a free market, sadly there's no european consensus. Hmm... we seem to have a different definition of "worked". I would suggest it hasn't worked until it is proved to be to the benefit of all member countries over a given period of time (many years, decades even). The ERM "worked" by your definition; I'm not convinced. KaЯl wrote: That's why I don't care about opinion of others on myself, I try just to be consistent with my conscience. So are you telling me that you only debate things in an attempt to challenge other people's opinions, not to challenge your own? If so, why bother? If everyone takes that attitude, there's no point in anything we do here. KaЯl wrote: Personally, I don't blame America. I blame Bush, I'm still able to make the difference. So we'll be allowed to play in Europe and talk to the US once Bush is gone? :-D (joking!) Bush is a zealot, he says things without thinking and if other people didn't stop him then he'd do things without thinking. Unfortunately he has not been surrounded by calming influences. He holds himself on a high moral ground and then fails to act morally in some circumstances. However, it's easy to blame one man or even one group of men. Would you not hold at least some responsibility to Hussein? I could list a fair number of people who I blame more than Bush. I would agree with you that Bush claims to be a lot more moral than he is; something you could not accuse Hussein of. That makes him a lot less ammicable and certainly untrustworthy, but it doesn't make him the enemy... not yet anyway. KaЯl wrote: You're overreacting. You can't compare Nazi occupation with anything we are talking about. I know that. I'm just saying that being one Europe under France or some kind of Franco-German allowance is not really better than being one Europe under the Nazis. To be one Europe, we have to at least feel individually that we have as much power as an individual from France or Spain or Norway or Turke

KaRl

Paul Riley wrote: we seem to have a different definition of "worked". As long as it doesn't crash, it works :-D Paul Riley wrote: So are you telling me that you only debate things in an attempt to challenge other people's opinions, not to challenge your own No, I didn't succeed to make my point. I was refering about the judgements and opinions others may have on myself, when I am the central topic of the debate. They may think what they want, they are that right, but it doesn't imply I have to modify what I am, only to please them (of course, this "rule" suffers exceptions according to the level of intimacy, I'm not so psycho-rigid) Paul Riley wrote: However, it's easy to blame one man or even one group of men. If I blame BUsh, it's not specifically about Iraq, but much more because of the ideas he carries. SH is what the western powers let him to be. Of course he's a dirty bastard playing with the destinity of his people, we know that for a while, we helped him. Nothing would delights me more than the removal of any dictator over the World, it's the method I 'm discussing. Paul Riley wrote: it doesn't make him the enemy... :wtf: I hope we are still far from this point Paul Riley wrote: we have to at least feel individually that we have as much power as an individual from France or Spain or Norway or Turkey It's the point, we still think as nationals, not as europeans, we try to have the best for our respective nations, not for the EU. I'm not for a new state replacing the old ones, but for a federation of the existing states. What lies on a national level should be still decided by the nationals. In UK, Scotland has its own parliament, hasn't it? Paul Riley wrote: I'm just saying that being one Europe under France or some kind of Franco-German allowance is not really better than being one Europe under the Nazis Probably a cultural difference. Saying that here would probably considered as insulting, it would be understood as a comparison. Paul Riley wrote: So what? Srebrenica. Because of the lack of european cohesion, we accepted the infamy to let that happen in Europe again. Time lost can never be recovered, at best compensated.

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons

KaRl

Paul Riley wrote: All papers have an agenda, just because they come folded doesn't change that If you mean that any newspaper has an opinion and his therefore subjective, I don't understand what eagers you. By definition a newspaper is representing an opinion. What disgusts me is when they are deliberately lying, inventing news, propagating rumors, using unchecked sources. I don't think Le Monde does that, but of course I may be wrong, it's make a long time I've lost my illusions.

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop