2nd amendment
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I really don't think you read what I wrote. The British empire new it could no longer control its colonies. Just because it worked with them in those cases doesn't change the fact they were broke do to war. Anyways it is irrelevant to the topic at hand. Including your blip about US expansion. Has nothing to do with the price of melons in Alaska.
firstly it was you that introduced the topic, secondly I did read your post, you said it
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Isn't that what I said? The British empire could not afford to control its colonies anymore due to rebellions.
and I pointed it out that it WASNT due to rebellions, but due to two world wars in which the US bled us dry. if there is a majority who support the right to bear arms then where is your problem? or do you not have control over your elected officials?
You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.
When I brought it up there was relevance. With out proper armament the US would never have succeeded in its revolution. You are now turning this into a debate of why the British Empire colapsed. Move on.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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When I brought it up there was relevance. With out proper armament the US would never have succeeded in its revolution. You are now turning this into a debate of why the British Empire colapsed. Move on.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
no you brought it up as a cheep jibe at the British. most of the armament that defeated the british was supplied by the french and frankly I dont realy care wether you have guns or not as it has no effect on me (other than the horrible culture of Gangsta that seems to being exported) but why should I buy into your ideals of guns making things safer when it is obvious that its not true, and as for cover fire rubbish thats the biggest joke on codeproject this week
You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.
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no you brought it up as a cheep jibe at the British. most of the armament that defeated the british was supplied by the french and frankly I dont realy care wether you have guns or not as it has no effect on me (other than the horrible culture of Gangsta that seems to being exported) but why should I buy into your ideals of guns making things safer when it is obvious that its not true, and as for cover fire rubbish thats the biggest joke on codeproject this week
You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.
Bergholt Stuttley Johnson wrote:
most of the armament that defeated the british was supplied by the french
The war would have ended before it even started with out a base supply. The French supplied AFTER the war started and was considered a turning point. Read your history.
Bergholt Stuttley Johnson wrote:
and frankly I dont realy care wether you have guns or not as it has no effect on me (other than the horrible culture of Gangsta that seems to being exported)
So then why debate it?
Bergholt Stuttley Johnson wrote:
but why should I buy into your ideals of guns making things safer when it is obvious that its not true
Again you have missed the point of the 2nd Ammendment. It has NOTHING to do with YOU being safer. It is about an individuals right. One could claim that everyone is safer if the federal government put tracking devices and listening devices on everyone. However that is an invasion of privacy and against the 4th Ammendment. You really do not understand the Bill of Rights if you think the 2nd Ammendment has to do with safety. The argument of safety is simply a counter to why those that think the 2nd Ammendment should be nulled. By showing there is that argument (i.e. it is debatable), the point is moot as that is not why we have the Amendment. If there existed no argument the nay sayers would use that logic to null it out although that is not why it exists. For example, say the government says sugar is illegal because it is bad for you. Sugar is not added to food etc. because it is claimed to be good for you. It is added because people enjoy the flavor. Therefore it is irrelevant that sugar is bad for you. Maybe not the best comparison, but that is roughly what it sounds like to people that understand the point of the 2nd amendment.
Bergholt Stuttley Johnson wrote:
and as for cover fire rubbish thats the biggest joke on codeproject this week
Sure sure. You clearly don't understand what an armed populace means. Or what gun fire even causes. A guy in body armor is not a freaking terminator. He is still a person that if he gets hit with a bullet will have natural reflexes partially stunning (maybe for only mili seconds). When bullets come from multiple angles they can not see or predict where the next will come from. Again, this is not the debate.
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Bergholt Stuttley Johnson wrote:
most of the armament that defeated the british was supplied by the french
The war would have ended before it even started with out a base supply. The French supplied AFTER the war started and was considered a turning point. Read your history.
Bergholt Stuttley Johnson wrote:
and frankly I dont realy care wether you have guns or not as it has no effect on me (other than the horrible culture of Gangsta that seems to being exported)
So then why debate it?
Bergholt Stuttley Johnson wrote:
but why should I buy into your ideals of guns making things safer when it is obvious that its not true
Again you have missed the point of the 2nd Ammendment. It has NOTHING to do with YOU being safer. It is about an individuals right. One could claim that everyone is safer if the federal government put tracking devices and listening devices on everyone. However that is an invasion of privacy and against the 4th Ammendment. You really do not understand the Bill of Rights if you think the 2nd Ammendment has to do with safety. The argument of safety is simply a counter to why those that think the 2nd Ammendment should be nulled. By showing there is that argument (i.e. it is debatable), the point is moot as that is not why we have the Amendment. If there existed no argument the nay sayers would use that logic to null it out although that is not why it exists. For example, say the government says sugar is illegal because it is bad for you. Sugar is not added to food etc. because it is claimed to be good for you. It is added because people enjoy the flavor. Therefore it is irrelevant that sugar is bad for you. Maybe not the best comparison, but that is roughly what it sounds like to people that understand the point of the 2nd amendment.
Bergholt Stuttley Johnson wrote:
and as for cover fire rubbish thats the biggest joke on codeproject this week
Sure sure. You clearly don't understand what an armed populace means. Or what gun fire even causes. A guy in body armor is not a freaking terminator. He is still a person that if he gets hit with a bullet will have natural reflexes partially stunning (maybe for only mili seconds). When bullets come from multiple angles they can not see or predict where the next will come from. Again, this is not the debate.
fine, so you say your piece and I will shut up as obviously I know nothing moving on with life
You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.
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fine, so you say your piece and I will shut up as obviously I know nothing moving on with life
You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.
Eh don't be such a prude. Your input is valued, but a lot of what you have said has been said over and over and is not valid. E.g. 1. Country A disarmed and they have no problems (implying the government or some other private force did not start oppressing the people) Irrelevant because it uses the argument of hasn't happened yet so it therefore will not happen. 2. Country A has lower crime and they disarmed. Irrelevant as there are also numerous examples of countries with disarmament that have had even worse shootings or other maniacal incidents. 3. Times have changed and so have weapons. What does a person need with XYZ gun (where XYZ is not a traditional sport or hunting weapon) Irrelevant as the 2nd ammendment clearly states that the reason for armament is not for sport or hunting but to maintain the ability to create or actively have a local militia. 4. Having the populace armed would have made incident XYZ worse. Irrelevant as this is pure speculation and the 2nd amendment is not about making maniacal incidents better or worse. Did I miss something?
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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Eh don't be such a prude. Your input is valued, but a lot of what you have said has been said over and over and is not valid. E.g. 1. Country A disarmed and they have no problems (implying the government or some other private force did not start oppressing the people) Irrelevant because it uses the argument of hasn't happened yet so it therefore will not happen. 2. Country A has lower crime and they disarmed. Irrelevant as there are also numerous examples of countries with disarmament that have had even worse shootings or other maniacal incidents. 3. Times have changed and so have weapons. What does a person need with XYZ gun (where XYZ is not a traditional sport or hunting weapon) Irrelevant as the 2nd ammendment clearly states that the reason for armament is not for sport or hunting but to maintain the ability to create or actively have a local militia. 4. Having the populace armed would have made incident XYZ worse. Irrelevant as this is pure speculation and the 2nd amendment is not about making maniacal incidents better or worse. Did I miss something?
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
yes you have, let me know if you figure it out
You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.
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yes you have, let me know if you figure it out
You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.
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You don't like Americans because our guns intimidate you?
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
Nope try again ps I do like guns and I have good friends who are american and some of those are actually from the USA
You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.
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Nope try again ps I do like guns and I have good friends who are american and some of those are actually from the USA
You cant outrun the world, but there is no harm in getting a head start Real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time.
Well I do not see any other argument you made against the 2nd amendment (other than tangent debates that were not really related). You will have to be clear about your point.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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http://www.altpress.com/contributors/entry/phil_labonte_of_all_that_remains_on_the_second_amendment_and_our_right_to_b[^] Great music and clearly has a good understanding of the way our constitution "Should" be interpreted. Unfortunately he is right and we have a police state going on. Granted its not total lock down, but our rights have been trampled to near nil over the last 100 years. I don't understand why most people don't understand this. I hear the classic "Its outdated. You can't fight an apache with a rifle" To which my response is "Good point. We should consider getting an Apache for the neighborhood watch" :D Last night on TV I heard a good one. The argument of "Why would you ever need to shoot that many bullets so fast?" Responce: "Do you need a car that can go 250mph? Should that be made illegal as well?"
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
What a pile of crap.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Bergholt Stuttley Johnson wrote:
If you feel that your country is as uncivilised as that, then I can see why you would want to be armed, however I would never have placed the US in the same catagory as the Middle east and Iraq etc but as most police states actually occur with the blessing of the population I would still dispute its worth
I feel that armament is a sign of civilized. It means your civilized society is not foolish enough to think that another group of civilized folks will not take whats yours at first sign of their armament being stronger. One can not rely on the government to protect you from you neighbor. Their are plenty of records of crazy folks using armament to mass slaughter countless people in non-armed societies. This shows that the commonality between such incidents has nothing to do with gun regulation.
Bergholt Stuttley Johnson wrote:
ok dont see an issue with that, as long as its not removed from such a place without the proper license
Removal is irrelevant. Usage is not for what you are speaking. One should be able to transport to anywhere. So long as there is no regulations on said area (e.g. many places "Ban" guns on the premises)
Bergholt Stuttley Johnson wrote:
ome weapons are already illegal so this argument is moot, you cannot own chemical or biological weapons (as far as I know ) so there are already accepted exclusions it is purely where you draw the line
Illegal but as was pointed out in the post (and many agree with it), that is unconstitutional. There is no way around that. One can argue why a person should not be allowed to have it (terrorist etc.), but the fact is that restraint is unconstitutional.
Bergholt Stuttley Johnson wrote:
but are said teenages allowed out unsupervised without any training? from what I understand the only restriction on buying a gun is age and a waiting period? would you feel safe on the road if said rteenager could buy a car wait three days and then drive onto the freeway having NO experiance of driving before?
Not allowed out but they can certainly go purchase a car with out any supervision. Same is true for firearms actually. I think there are state regulations (at least in my state) that adolescents must go through training. In fact I seem to remember someone a slight loop hole in that the training
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
I feel that armament is a sign of civilized.
I assume the death penalty is also a sign of civilisation then ? Australia does not have the gun culture of the US. The odds of being shot in Australia, per capita, are 1/15th of the odds of being shot in the USA. More so, I can think of only three mass shootings by a civilian of strangers, ever.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Collin Jasnoch wrote:
I feel that armament is a sign of civilized.
I assume the death penalty is also a sign of civilisation then ? Australia does not have the gun culture of the US. The odds of being shot in Australia, per capita, are 1/15th of the odds of being shot in the USA. More so, I can think of only three mass shootings by a civilian of strangers, ever.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
I assume the death penalty is also a sign of civilisation then ?
Protected your family and processions is not the same as deeming a person unfit to live. Not stating my belief on that issue either way. Just saying they are not at all related.
Christian Graus wrote:
Australia does not have the gun culture of the US. The odds of being shot in Australia, per capita, are 1/15th of the odds of being shot in the USA. More so, I can think of only three mass shootings by a civilian of strangers, ever.
So are we comparing apples to oranges now? While we're at it should we include Nigeria, Tibet, and Germany? I am sure we can come up with some "logical" comparison for these countries...
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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Christian Graus wrote:
I assume the death penalty is also a sign of civilisation then ?
Protected your family and processions is not the same as deeming a person unfit to live. Not stating my belief on that issue either way. Just saying they are not at all related.
Christian Graus wrote:
Australia does not have the gun culture of the US. The odds of being shot in Australia, per capita, are 1/15th of the odds of being shot in the USA. More so, I can think of only three mass shootings by a civilian of strangers, ever.
So are we comparing apples to oranges now? While we're at it should we include Nigeria, Tibet, and Germany? I am sure we can come up with some "logical" comparison for these countries...
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Protected your family and processions is not the same as deeming a person unfit to live. Not stating my belief on that issue either way. Just saying they are not at all related.
The (wrong) idea that more guns protect people has nothing to do with being civilised. If society is so civilised, why do you think you need guns ? Where is the correlation ?
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
So are we comparing apples to oranges now?
We're comparing two Western civilisations full of humans. If having guns helps you protect yourself, then it follows that people without guns, are less protected.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
While we're at it should we include Nigeria, Tibet, and Germany?
You really think Australia is as different to the US as Tibet is ? Were you as unhappy with the comparison when the NRA was lying about gun crime in Australia, and trying to make comparisons to bolster it's case ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Protected your family and processions is not the same as deeming a person unfit to live. Not stating my belief on that issue either way. Just saying they are not at all related.
The (wrong) idea that more guns protect people has nothing to do with being civilised. If society is so civilised, why do you think you need guns ? Where is the correlation ?
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
So are we comparing apples to oranges now?
We're comparing two Western civilisations full of humans. If having guns helps you protect yourself, then it follows that people without guns, are less protected.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
While we're at it should we include Nigeria, Tibet, and Germany?
You really think Australia is as different to the US as Tibet is ? Were you as unhappy with the comparison when the NRA was lying about gun crime in Australia, and trying to make comparisons to bolster it's case ?
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
The (wrong) idea that more guns protect people has nothing to do with being civilised. If society is so civilised, why do you think you need guns ? Where is the correlation ?
This is actually quite simple to explain. It has nothing to do with the society you live in being civilized but actually your neighboring society/people. Any civilized society will have something a neighboring less civilized society will want... And try to take by force.
Christian Graus wrote:
We're comparing two Western civilisations full of humans. If having guns helps you protect yourself, then it follows that people without guns, are less protected.
Being 'protected' has little to do with number of shootings. If a society with a large amount of suburban areas has an outbreak of serial killers targeting suburban families do we blame the suburban families? If instead the shooter of Aurora used an IED to blow up the entire building and then next year a similar event took place in a theater should we blame theaters as the problem. You are correlating data that should not be correlated. There are plenty of shootings (even more devastating than Aurora) in countries where guns are completely banned. This proves your correlation is irrelevant. You miaswell correlate the star alignment. People going crazy on killing sprees has nothing to do with societal armament.
Christian Graus wrote:
You really think Australia is as different to the US as Tibet is ? Were you as unhappy with the comparison when the NRA was lying about gun crime in Australia, and trying to make comparisons to bolster it's case ?
You said yourself that Australia is NOT a gun culture. Obviously the US is. This difference alone makes the comparison silly. If the laws were to change do you really think the culture would right along with it? After Aurora there was a surge in gun purchases in Colorado. What do you think would happen if laws were being put on the table? Not only that it simply opens the door for black market creating more crime and more "gray" lines for people to cross. Once they cross it they are willing to commit more crimes making things worse. You do know what Prohibition was/is right? Do you think the war on drugs is working? Do you think the Alcohol prohibition was effective?
Computers have been intelligent for a l
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http://www.altpress.com/contributors/entry/phil_labonte_of_all_that_remains_on_the_second_amendment_and_our_right_to_b[^] Great music and clearly has a good understanding of the way our constitution "Should" be interpreted. Unfortunately he is right and we have a police state going on. Granted its not total lock down, but our rights have been trampled to near nil over the last 100 years. I don't understand why most people don't understand this. I hear the classic "Its outdated. You can't fight an apache with a rifle" To which my response is "Good point. We should consider getting an Apache for the neighborhood watch" :D Last night on TV I heard a good one. The argument of "Why would you ever need to shoot that many bullets so fast?" Responce: "Do you need a car that can go 250mph? Should that be made illegal as well?"
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
With the way things are going only two groups will be armed. Military (police) and criminal. Thus average Joe will not be able to defend themselves in case of an uprising. Wait that might be what the government is afraid of.
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With the way things are going only two groups will be armed. Military (police) and criminal. Thus average Joe will not be able to defend themselves in case of an uprising. Wait that might be what the government is afraid of.
Could be very likely. It really depends on your location though. Inner city, suburbs, and outskirts all have different sort of folks and different armament. If there is an uprising though the inner city will be exactly as you said... Controlled by criminals or a police state.
Computers have been intelligent for a long time now. It just so happens that the program writers are about as effective as a room full of monkeys trying to crank out a copy of Hamlet.
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Christian Graus wrote:
The (wrong) idea that more guns protect people has nothing to do with being civilised. If society is so civilised, why do you think you need guns ? Where is the correlation ?
This is actually quite simple to explain. It has nothing to do with the society you live in being civilized but actually your neighboring society/people. Any civilized society will have something a neighboring less civilized society will want... And try to take by force.
Christian Graus wrote:
We're comparing two Western civilisations full of humans. If having guns helps you protect yourself, then it follows that people without guns, are less protected.
Being 'protected' has little to do with number of shootings. If a society with a large amount of suburban areas has an outbreak of serial killers targeting suburban families do we blame the suburban families? If instead the shooter of Aurora used an IED to blow up the entire building and then next year a similar event took place in a theater should we blame theaters as the problem. You are correlating data that should not be correlated. There are plenty of shootings (even more devastating than Aurora) in countries where guns are completely banned. This proves your correlation is irrelevant. You miaswell correlate the star alignment. People going crazy on killing sprees has nothing to do with societal armament.
Christian Graus wrote:
You really think Australia is as different to the US as Tibet is ? Were you as unhappy with the comparison when the NRA was lying about gun crime in Australia, and trying to make comparisons to bolster it's case ?
You said yourself that Australia is NOT a gun culture. Obviously the US is. This difference alone makes the comparison silly. If the laws were to change do you really think the culture would right along with it? After Aurora there was a surge in gun purchases in Colorado. What do you think would happen if laws were being put on the table? Not only that it simply opens the door for black market creating more crime and more "gray" lines for people to cross. Once they cross it they are willing to commit more crimes making things worse. You do know what Prohibition was/is right? Do you think the war on drugs is working? Do you think the Alcohol prohibition was effective?
Computers have been intelligent for a l
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Any civilized society will have something a neighboring less civilized society will want... And try to take by force.
I have no idea of your point here.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
You are correlating data that should not be correlated. There are plenty of shootings (even more devastating than Aurora) in countries where guns are completely banned. This proves your correlation is irrelevant. You miaswell correlate the star alignment.
People going crazy on killing sprees has nothing to do with societal armament.This is stupid. 1 - if societal armament has anything to do with safety at all, as you claimed, then the data I am suggesting would follow 2 - of course most people with guns in the US are law abiding. But, the saturation of guns means that nuts can get guns. Which is why you have mass shootings and we almost never do.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
You said yourself that Australia is NOT a gun culture. Obviously the US is. This difference alone makes the comparison silly. If the laws were to change do you really think the culture would right along with it?
That depends on if the rednecks with guns would break the law and keep them. Either way, what it proves is that the lack of guns does not create a lack of safety.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Not only that it simply opens the door for black market creating more crime and more "gray" lines for people to cross. Once they cross it they are willing to commit more crimes making things worse.
You're saying that if I ever shoplifted as a teen ( I did ), I was bound to become a murderer and drug dealer ( I have not ). That is stupid. The fact is, most mass killers are not part of the criminal world, and thus would not have access to guns if they were not legal.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
You do know what Prohibition was/is right? Do you think the war on drugs is working? Do you think the Alcohol prohibition was effective?
I think the war on drugs is stupid. But it's not really the same thing. Most of the harm done to people by drugs, is done by their being illegal. Guns are made for killing. They harm others.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my
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Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Any civilized society will have something a neighboring less civilized society will want... And try to take by force.
I have no idea of your point here.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
You are correlating data that should not be correlated. There are plenty of shootings (even more devastating than Aurora) in countries where guns are completely banned. This proves your correlation is irrelevant. You miaswell correlate the star alignment.
People going crazy on killing sprees has nothing to do with societal armament.This is stupid. 1 - if societal armament has anything to do with safety at all, as you claimed, then the data I am suggesting would follow 2 - of course most people with guns in the US are law abiding. But, the saturation of guns means that nuts can get guns. Which is why you have mass shootings and we almost never do.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
You said yourself that Australia is NOT a gun culture. Obviously the US is. This difference alone makes the comparison silly. If the laws were to change do you really think the culture would right along with it?
That depends on if the rednecks with guns would break the law and keep them. Either way, what it proves is that the lack of guns does not create a lack of safety.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Not only that it simply opens the door for black market creating more crime and more "gray" lines for people to cross. Once they cross it they are willing to commit more crimes making things worse.
You're saying that if I ever shoplifted as a teen ( I did ), I was bound to become a murderer and drug dealer ( I have not ). That is stupid. The fact is, most mass killers are not part of the criminal world, and thus would not have access to guns if they were not legal.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
You do know what Prohibition was/is right? Do you think the war on drugs is working? Do you think the Alcohol prohibition was effective?
I think the war on drugs is stupid. But it's not really the same thing. Most of the harm done to people by drugs, is done by their being illegal. Guns are made for killing. They harm others.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my
Christian Graus wrote:
I have no idea of your point here.
Do you think wars or oppressive societies start because of name calling and bullying? They start because someone or group arms up to take what some other person or group has and is less armed.
Christian Graus wrote:
This is stupid.
1 - if societal armament has anything to do with safety at all, as you claimed, then the data I am suggesting would follow
2 - of course most people with guns in the US are law abiding. But, the saturation of guns means that nuts can get guns. Which is why you have mass shootings and we almost never do.Now I am wondering if you read the post. Or have ever done any research. Yes you have data. But there is plenty of data out there showing non armed cultures have "shootings" as well. In some cases they are worse. I use quotes on "shootings" because really it is not about the shooting (even though there are plenty of cases where it literally is a shooting). It is really about some nut job deciding to kill people. How they do it is irrelevant. If they decide to kill, they will kill.
Christian Graus wrote:
That depends on if the rednecks with guns would break the law and keep them. Either way, what it proves is that the lack of guns does not create a lack of safety.
I never said a lack of guns is a lack of society. I said IMO armament is a sign of a civilized society. That does not at all mean non armed societies are not civilized. If A then B is true one can not conclude If NOT A then Not B. [Edit] Misread what you wrote. But I do not think I have said lack of guns is lack of safety. Lack of guns means one can not individual protect themselves from an oppressive force. You can claim your government or police will protect you. Our judicial system has ruled they need not to (again read the post). This means it is up to you as the individual to protect yourself.
Christian Graus wrote:
You're saying that if I ever shoplifted as a teen ( I did ), I was bound to become a murderer and drug dealer ( I have not ). That is stupid. The fact is, most mass killers are not part of the criminal world, and thus would not have access to guns if they were not legal.
Not at all. I am saying you are forcing a culture on a large scale to
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Christian Graus wrote:
I have no idea of your point here.
Do you think wars or oppressive societies start because of name calling and bullying? They start because someone or group arms up to take what some other person or group has and is less armed.
Christian Graus wrote:
This is stupid.
1 - if societal armament has anything to do with safety at all, as you claimed, then the data I am suggesting would follow
2 - of course most people with guns in the US are law abiding. But, the saturation of guns means that nuts can get guns. Which is why you have mass shootings and we almost never do.Now I am wondering if you read the post. Or have ever done any research. Yes you have data. But there is plenty of data out there showing non armed cultures have "shootings" as well. In some cases they are worse. I use quotes on "shootings" because really it is not about the shooting (even though there are plenty of cases where it literally is a shooting). It is really about some nut job deciding to kill people. How they do it is irrelevant. If they decide to kill, they will kill.
Christian Graus wrote:
That depends on if the rednecks with guns would break the law and keep them. Either way, what it proves is that the lack of guns does not create a lack of safety.
I never said a lack of guns is a lack of society. I said IMO armament is a sign of a civilized society. That does not at all mean non armed societies are not civilized. If A then B is true one can not conclude If NOT A then Not B. [Edit] Misread what you wrote. But I do not think I have said lack of guns is lack of safety. Lack of guns means one can not individual protect themselves from an oppressive force. You can claim your government or police will protect you. Our judicial system has ruled they need not to (again read the post). This means it is up to you as the individual to protect yourself.
Christian Graus wrote:
You're saying that if I ever shoplifted as a teen ( I did ), I was bound to become a murderer and drug dealer ( I have not ). That is stupid. The fact is, most mass killers are not part of the criminal world, and thus would not have access to guns if they were not legal.
Not at all. I am saying you are forcing a culture on a large scale to
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Do you think wars or oppressive societies start because of name calling and bullying? They start because someone or group arms up to take what some other person or group has and is less armed.
This is a broad statement, and makes no real point. Oppressive societies start for a lot of reasons. If one were to start in the US, your army would not be deterred by the pop guns in your gun cabinet.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
But there is plenty of data out there showing non armed cultures have "shootings" as well. In some cases they are worse.
Tasmania, my home state, had the worst shooting of all time, for a while. But the point is simply that there's nuts everywhere, but a nut in the US finds it far easier to get a gun. Who knows how many Australian citizens were nuts, but could never shoot anyone due to lack of access to guns ?
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
It is really about some nut job deciding to kill people. How they do it is irrelevant. If they decide to kill, they will kill.
I'd rather deal with a nut with a knife, than one with a gun, though. Your claim is that the US just has a TON more nut jobs per capita ?
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
You can claim your government or police will protect you
No, I've not said that. I've said that I would prefer to know that the odds are low that someone who tries to oppress me, has a gun, than carry a gun and have a Dirty Harry fantasy.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Guns are made for many reasons. Sport, hunting, protection, and even simply put a deterrent. One can say all of these purposes root from the "ability" of them to kill. But that does not mean that is their actual purpose.
They can be used for other things, but they are all designed with one goal - being better at shooting, and the core reason to shoot, is to kill. I don't care if you have a gun. I just think it's insane to pretend that there's no correlation between a society full of guns, and the risk of someone shooting at you.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
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Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Do you think wars or oppressive societies start because of name calling and bullying? They start because someone or group arms up to take what some other person or group has and is less armed.
This is a broad statement, and makes no real point. Oppressive societies start for a lot of reasons. If one were to start in the US, your army would not be deterred by the pop guns in your gun cabinet.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
But there is plenty of data out there showing non armed cultures have "shootings" as well. In some cases they are worse.
Tasmania, my home state, had the worst shooting of all time, for a while. But the point is simply that there's nuts everywhere, but a nut in the US finds it far easier to get a gun. Who knows how many Australian citizens were nuts, but could never shoot anyone due to lack of access to guns ?
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
It is really about some nut job deciding to kill people. How they do it is irrelevant. If they decide to kill, they will kill.
I'd rather deal with a nut with a knife, than one with a gun, though. Your claim is that the US just has a TON more nut jobs per capita ?
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
You can claim your government or police will protect you
No, I've not said that. I've said that I would prefer to know that the odds are low that someone who tries to oppress me, has a gun, than carry a gun and have a Dirty Harry fantasy.
Collin Jasnoch wrote:
Guns are made for many reasons. Sport, hunting, protection, and even simply put a deterrent. One can say all of these purposes root from the "ability" of them to kill. But that does not mean that is their actual purpose.
They can be used for other things, but they are all designed with one goal - being better at shooting, and the core reason to shoot, is to kill. I don't care if you have a gun. I just think it's insane to pretend that there's no correlation between a society full of guns, and the risk of someone shooting at you.
Christian Graus Driven to the arms of OSX by Vista. Read my blog to find out how I've worked around bugs in Microsoft tools and frameworks.
Christian Graus wrote:
This is a broad statement, and makes no real point. Oppressive societies start for a lot of reasons. If one were to start in the US, your army would not be deterred by the pop guns in your gun cabinet.
No I would not be able to "deter" them personally (and I actually have no gun cabinet nor gun ;P I am happy that many do though). Its actually more about guerrilla warfare anyways. If a society is being oppressed it is no longer about determent but strategic and tactical assaults. Having a few guns makes that easier than having no guns.
Christian Graus wrote:
I'd rather deal with a nut with a knife, than one with a gun, though.
Guns and knifes are not the only ways to kill. And that is actually the driving point of why "banning" guns does nothing. Oklahoma city bombing was done with a fertilizer bomb. 9/11 was accomplished with box cutters. Again, if someone or a group of people decide to kill access to "guns" is not needed. In fact the larger atrocities are often done with non traditional guns but use IEDs.
Christian Graus wrote:
No, I've not said that. I've said that I would prefer to know that the odds are low that someone who tries to oppress me, has a gun, than carry a gun and have a Dirty Harry fantasy.
Maybe you should read the 2nd amendment more carefully. The reason for it is to protect the people against those they have put faith in to protect them. I.e. they are likely the ones with the guns already. If you give up yours then its 'game over'.
Christian Graus wrote:
They can be used for other things, but they are all designed with one goal - being better at shooting, and the core reason to shoot, is to kill.
I don't care if you have a gun. I just think it's insane to pretend that there's no correlation between a society full of guns, and the risk of someone shooting at you.Now you are getting to a point. Sure their is likely a correlation there. But thats a silly point honestly. I am more likely to get into a car accident because I drive to work versus tele-commute. A doctor is more likely to get exposed to a virus because they treat the sick daily. My favorite silly stat: You are most likely to get into an accident with in 2 miles from your home. Duh! That's where I drive mostly! Obviously if there ARE