What makes C and C++ a "good" language?
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pasztorpisti wrote:
like header files that terribly slow down the compile time
Have you any proof supporting this sentence, regarding the C language?
pasztorpisti wrote:
Again, the only reason for the existence of C/C++ is massive amount of legacy code
This is an opinion (mine, for instance, is completely different).
Veni, vidi, vici.
CPallini wrote:
Have you any proof supporting this sentence, regarding the C language?
Yes, in the last years we had many times when we had to rearrange the header includes and optimize for compile times for our CI system. We compiled the codebase (~2millions loc) with a grid system (IncrediBuild) plus SSD drives in all machines in the grid and the compile time was still 20 minutes. By rearranging some header files we could decrease the build time to around 5 minutes. Thats what I'm talking about not some few file hobby projects that make no sense to measure such things.
CPallini wrote:
This is an opinion (mine, for instance, is completely different).
And could you make a list of language features and compare that to some other languages that have better support for that? I see significant deficiencies in C++ comparred to some other languages, and its syntax because more-and-more complex with every new draft. A language that has redundant features and backward compatiblity with a thousand years old other language simply can't be "optimal".
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pasztorpisti wrote:
Today its not the only choice
So what language would you choose today to write a new OS in ?
...cmk The idea that I can be presented with a problem, set out to logically solve it with the tools at hand, and wind up with a program that could not be legally used because someone else followed the same logical steps some years ago and filed for a patent on it is horrifying. - John Carmack
Today there are shit loads of OSes, why would you want to write a new one? Anyway, 99% of the ongoing projects is not an operating system so you can pick from lots of other popular languages. In one of my previous posts I mentioned that there is no other similar low level language however by fixing some issues with C could result in a good one to write driver level stuff.
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pasztorpisti wrote:
The problem is that the accident has already happened and windows and linux are already in C.
Which would be relevent except for the fact that windows has been re-written several times.
The sources of win2k have been leaked. Download them and look at the code. It contains tons of legacy code even from win31. Not to mention the backward compatibility between windows versions. Windows has never been rewritten.
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The sources of win2k have been leaked. Download them and look at the code. It contains tons of legacy code even from win31. Not to mention the backward compatibility between windows versions. Windows has never been rewritten.
I'm surprised no hackers from around the world has hacked into Microsoft(R) servers and steal every O.S. source codes or projects (or at least some of them), and them publish them on torrents. But Google, Bing, Yahoo and all those other people filter out those results and/or delete them. There probably has been private court orders of Microsoft vs. some hacker, stealing source. But I'm pretty sure Microsoft knows everything about security then any other security company out there combined, considering you have to send your driver to them to get it signed now. Basically Microsoft probably has there servers extremely hard to break through or breach, they probably have it to where if it detects a breach or unauthorized transfer of specific files, it disconnects the servers and computers and locks them down, terminating the hacking or suspicious signal. Who knows, they are probably smart and keep the internet cord unplugged, considering the fact that government leaks there "state of the art" :rolleyes: F-35 blue prints on the internet, where everyone can see (technically, cause if there's internet, there's hackers), or maybe that's bogus that the government sent out to intentionally trick hackers into thinking they got the "real stuff", but who knows what crazy stuff tech companies do these days.:suss::java:
Simple Thanks and Regards, Brandon T. H. Programming in C and C++ now, now developing applications, services and drivers (and maybe some kernel modules...psst kernel-mode drivers...psst). Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up. - Thomas Edison
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CPallini wrote:
Have you any proof supporting this sentence, regarding the C language?
Yes, in the last years we had many times when we had to rearrange the header includes and optimize for compile times for our CI system. We compiled the codebase (~2millions loc) with a grid system (IncrediBuild) plus SSD drives in all machines in the grid and the compile time was still 20 minutes. By rearranging some header files we could decrease the build time to around 5 minutes. Thats what I'm talking about not some few file hobby projects that make no sense to measure such things.
CPallini wrote:
This is an opinion (mine, for instance, is completely different).
And could you make a list of language features and compare that to some other languages that have better support for that? I see significant deficiencies in C++ comparred to some other languages, and its syntax because more-and-more complex with every new draft. A language that has redundant features and backward compatiblity with a thousand years old other language simply can't be "optimal".
pasztorpisti wrote:
Yes, in the last years we had many times when we had to rearrange the header includes and optimize for compile times for our CI system. We compiled the codebase (~2millions loc) with a grid system (IncrediBuild) plus SSD drives in all machines in the grid and the compile time was still 20 minutes. By rearranging some header files we could decrease the build time to around 5 minutes. Thats what I'm talking about not some few file hobby projects that make no sense to measure such things.
Still it is not a proof. You should compare it to the compilation time of a similar project written with your favourite language and achieving the same performance (if your favourite language could assist you on that).
pasztorpisti wrote:
And could you make a list of language features and compare that to some other languages that have better support for that?
C and C++ are performant. No other language (other than assembly) compares with them. You should know that.
pasztorpisti wrote:
I see significant deficiencies in C++ comparred to some other languages, and its syntax because more-and-more complex with every new draft.
While, for instance,
C#syntax becoming simpler?pasztorpisti wrote:
A language that has redundant features and backward compatiblity with a thousand years old other language simply can't be "optimal"
Still is compatible. I wouldn't call it 'optimal'. However I like it (this doesn't means I show apparent disgust for other languages - with the very exception of COBOL).
Veni, vidi, vici.
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pasztorpisti wrote:
Yes, in the last years we had many times when we had to rearrange the header includes and optimize for compile times for our CI system. We compiled the codebase (~2millions loc) with a grid system (IncrediBuild) plus SSD drives in all machines in the grid and the compile time was still 20 minutes. By rearranging some header files we could decrease the build time to around 5 minutes. Thats what I'm talking about not some few file hobby projects that make no sense to measure such things.
Still it is not a proof. You should compare it to the compilation time of a similar project written with your favourite language and achieving the same performance (if your favourite language could assist you on that).
pasztorpisti wrote:
And could you make a list of language features and compare that to some other languages that have better support for that?
C and C++ are performant. No other language (other than assembly) compares with them. You should know that.
pasztorpisti wrote:
I see significant deficiencies in C++ comparred to some other languages, and its syntax because more-and-more complex with every new draft.
While, for instance,
C#syntax becoming simpler?pasztorpisti wrote:
A language that has redundant features and backward compatiblity with a thousand years old other language simply can't be "optimal"
Still is compatible. I wouldn't call it 'optimal'. However I like it (this doesn't means I show apparent disgust for other languages - with the very exception of COBOL).
Veni, vidi, vici.
CPallini wrote:
Still it is not a proof. You should compare it to the compilation time of a similar project written with your favourite language and achieving the same performance (if your favourite language could assist you on that).
Its already a proves that that header files suck. On the other hand I worked with similar project sizes in Delphi and java too. Both outperforms C++ in compilation many times on much weaker hardware configuration.
CPallini wrote:
C and C++ are performant. No other language (other than assembly) compares with them. You should know that.
Its not C++ that provides the performance, its the underlying compiler architecture. Lot of other languages can also produce code with good performance (like pascal/Delphi). Its often better to leave assembly generation to the compiler because of optimization. Very few cases reason the use of 'manual assembly'.
CPallini wrote:
While, for instance,
C#syntax becoming simpler?No but I never said that C# is a good language especially in this respect. Take a look at java, its older then C# still preserved its superb simplicity, even the format the sources and arrangement of projects is unified. This is something respectful and exemplary.
CPallini wrote:
Still is compatible.
I wouldn't call it 'optimal'. However I like it (this doesn't means I show apparent disgust for other languages - with the very exception of COBOL).No it isn't compatible at all. Some libraries require very heavy modifications to get it compile with your compiler. Even some new "late" language features like templates work totally different in major compilers (like VC++ and gcc) requiring you to take attention to avoid compiler specific bugs(!!!) in your project. Thats terrible.
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I'm surprised no hackers from around the world has hacked into Microsoft(R) servers and steal every O.S. source codes or projects (or at least some of them), and them publish them on torrents. But Google, Bing, Yahoo and all those other people filter out those results and/or delete them. There probably has been private court orders of Microsoft vs. some hacker, stealing source. But I'm pretty sure Microsoft knows everything about security then any other security company out there combined, considering you have to send your driver to them to get it signed now. Basically Microsoft probably has there servers extremely hard to break through or breach, they probably have it to where if it detects a breach or unauthorized transfer of specific files, it disconnects the servers and computers and locks them down, terminating the hacking or suspicious signal. Who knows, they are probably smart and keep the internet cord unplugged, considering the fact that government leaks there "state of the art" :rolleyes: F-35 blue prints on the internet, where everyone can see (technically, cause if there's internet, there's hackers), or maybe that's bogus that the government sent out to intentionally trick hackers into thinking they got the "real stuff", but who knows what crazy stuff tech companies do these days.:suss::java:
Simple Thanks and Regards, Brandon T. H. Programming in C and C++ now, now developing applications, services and drivers (and maybe some kernel modules...psst kernel-mode drivers...psst). Many of life's failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up. - Thomas Edison
Every OS contains tons of bugs, old bugs go, new ones come with the new features. Still the wast majority of security holes are caused by buggy networking applications and not by the OS itself. The more complex a networking application the more changes you have to have a security hole in your system. (For example a browser is quite a complex piece of software!!!) Anyway, several windows and internet explorer patches followed the windows source leaking, not without reason but because they had to fix a lot of discovered and (I suspect that) known but shelved (!!!) bugs that became obvious for the hackers from the sources!
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CPallini wrote:
Still it is not a proof. You should compare it to the compilation time of a similar project written with your favourite language and achieving the same performance (if your favourite language could assist you on that).
Its already a proves that that header files suck. On the other hand I worked with similar project sizes in Delphi and java too. Both outperforms C++ in compilation many times on much weaker hardware configuration.
CPallini wrote:
C and C++ are performant. No other language (other than assembly) compares with them. You should know that.
Its not C++ that provides the performance, its the underlying compiler architecture. Lot of other languages can also produce code with good performance (like pascal/Delphi). Its often better to leave assembly generation to the compiler because of optimization. Very few cases reason the use of 'manual assembly'.
CPallini wrote:
While, for instance,
C#syntax becoming simpler?No but I never said that C# is a good language especially in this respect. Take a look at java, its older then C# still preserved its superb simplicity, even the format the sources and arrangement of projects is unified. This is something respectful and exemplary.
CPallini wrote:
Still is compatible.
I wouldn't call it 'optimal'. However I like it (this doesn't means I show apparent disgust for other languages - with the very exception of COBOL).No it isn't compatible at all. Some libraries require very heavy modifications to get it compile with your compiler. Even some new "late" language features like templates work totally different in major compilers (like VC++ and gcc) requiring you to take attention to avoid compiler specific bugs(!!!) in your project. Thats terrible.
pasztorpisti wrote:
On the other hand I worked with similar project sizes in Delphi and java too. Both outperforms C++ in compilation many times on much weaker hardware configuration
I can't believe that (comparing with C language). Anyway your quickly compiled project would suck in performance, compared to a similar C/C++ one.
pasztorpisti wrote:
Its not C++ that provides the performance, its the underlying compiler architecture. Lot of other languages can also produce code with good performance (like pascal/Delphi).
This is a nonsense. The 'underlying compiler architecture' depends on the language. Almost all other programming languages are outperformed by
C++. That's a fact.pasztorpisti wrote:
No it isn't compatible at all
We were not talking about that. We were talking instead about backward compatibility with C.
Veni, vidi, vici.
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pasztorpisti wrote:
On the other hand I worked with similar project sizes in Delphi and java too. Both outperforms C++ in compilation many times on much weaker hardware configuration
I can't believe that (comparing with C language). Anyway your quickly compiled project would suck in performance, compared to a similar C/C++ one.
pasztorpisti wrote:
Its not C++ that provides the performance, its the underlying compiler architecture. Lot of other languages can also produce code with good performance (like pascal/Delphi).
This is a nonsense. The 'underlying compiler architecture' depends on the language. Almost all other programming languages are outperformed by
C++. That's a fact.pasztorpisti wrote:
No it isn't compatible at all
We were not talking about that. We were talking instead about backward compatibility with C.
Veni, vidi, vici.
CPallini wrote:
I can't believe that (comparing with C language).
Anyway your quickly compiled project would suck in performance, compared to a similar C/C++ one.The time you win in another language comes from the fact that there is no header hell, and the parsing of the language is much simpler. For example delphi uses unit files that contains ready-made data for the compiler (the same is true for a lot of other languages), in C/C++ you have to read in and parse and compile the same header files a dozen times. This becomes even worse if the headers contain a lot of inlining and/or templates. The parsing and compiling of C++ is also much more complex for the compiler frontend than the same for some other languages like pascal/delphi. This has nothing to do with optimization. Anyway, any other language can use the exact same optimizations as C++ (see llvm).
CPallini wrote:
This is a nonsense. The 'underlying compiler architecture' depends on the language. Almost all other programming languages are outperformed by
C++. That's a fact.@See llvm.
CPallini wrote:
We were not talking about that. We were talking instead about backward compatibility with C.
I was talking about C++'s compatibility with C++. But the same is almost true for C's compatibility with C but this isn't so big problem because C is much simpler. With some modifications (like eliminating header files and some more type safety) C could be a nice simple language.
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The C and C++ languages are disastrous. They leave so many doors open for bugs and programming mistakes and they have other design failures (like header files that terribly slow down the compile time). The only valid reason for their existence is that most of today's libraries and operating systems are written using these languages. The interface of the majority of libraries and operating system APIs are still C based. Even if you try to replace these languages I think you need 3 different languages to build a whole operating system up on top of bare hardware. A minimal amount of assembly to communicate with hardware, a thin layer of relatively high level but unsafe language that allows for manual memory management in the low-level part of the operating system, and a high level safe language that can be used to write the top level of the operating system and the user programs. C/C++ could be something like the middle from these 3 languages but it would be easier to design a much better language than C/C++ with the same capabilities. Again, the only reason for the existence of C/C++ is massive amount of legacy code. EDIT: This post of mine became quite 'popular', for this reason I would like to link one of my other posts that contains a more comprehensive (but not full) list of my reasonings at the end of this quite long debate: http://www.codeproject.com/Messages/4377527/Re-What-makes-C-and-Cplusplus-a-good-language.aspx[^] Also would like to mention that I have extensive background in low level programming including assembly, C, and C++, reverse engineering and I'm not a 'just because'-type of hater of C/C++ who used only scripts and managed languages - I don't hate C/C++ at all. I respect these languages because they have been fun for me to program in, they helped the world to become better, but we have to see their obvious defects as well. Thanks for reading.
Regarding the power and the popularity: Being the language that was used to develop both windows and Linux operating systems is a proof that supports c\c++ as the best middle level languages not the contrary. I think this is because accidentally c++ was the first most complete in logic language that has been invented, since then, even now.So most of people learned it and wrote their programs with it. That is why it became the most popular. The fact that most of people use it and recommend it for their friends because they don't know except it, i think this is false, especially for the professional programmers who do this for living. You will find most of them master more than 3 or 4 languages. Most of the people still use it because it is still valid for most of purposes. You can code for any operating system, any new device. For example if I'm using vb can i code programs for i pad??!! So i agree with you for coding for general purposes you or we can chose any other easier language, this is correct, and i support, but regarding serious issues and for those who want to program for many purposes being real professionals you will find yourself forced to chose c++. Regarding load and other technical issues: Sorry, the reasons you mentioned for considering C++ not the optimal language, for example the arrange of header files, i think it returns to your team bad choices not to the language itself. The lines of code are compiled the order you put. Even if we agree and i agree that there is nothing optimal, especially at the field of science, and we are expecting the better. Tell me what is the alternative you propose to get rid of C++. I accept all alternatives. Is there anybody find something makes his life easier and not following it. I think he is ........ hahaha. You my dear mentioned the problem without mentioning the solution. Propose a solution and let us discus. The fact is , i think , it is difficult and expensive to write a new language like that one you and we dream of. Even if some company did so, and i think some did especially Microsoft, they wouldn't release it for commercial use easily like that. That would be one of the company precious treasures, and will be kept as a secret. No one these days invent something makes his work easily and let it go in public like that. Regarding the market side: Microsoft is trying to kill C++ to control the market when they make all visual studio equal regarding linking and compiling but i thing they wouldn't succeed, because they live on t
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CPallini wrote:
I can't believe that (comparing with C language).
Anyway your quickly compiled project would suck in performance, compared to a similar C/C++ one.The time you win in another language comes from the fact that there is no header hell, and the parsing of the language is much simpler. For example delphi uses unit files that contains ready-made data for the compiler (the same is true for a lot of other languages), in C/C++ you have to read in and parse and compile the same header files a dozen times. This becomes even worse if the headers contain a lot of inlining and/or templates. The parsing and compiling of C++ is also much more complex for the compiler frontend than the same for some other languages like pascal/delphi. This has nothing to do with optimization. Anyway, any other language can use the exact same optimizations as C++ (see llvm).
CPallini wrote:
This is a nonsense. The 'underlying compiler architecture' depends on the language. Almost all other programming languages are outperformed by
C++. That's a fact.@See llvm.
CPallini wrote:
We were not talking about that. We were talking instead about backward compatibility with C.
I was talking about C++'s compatibility with C++. But the same is almost true for C's compatibility with C but this isn't so big problem because C is much simpler. With some modifications (like eliminating header files and some more type safety) C could be a nice simple language.
Again you didn't understand. C language compilation is relatively fast. C++ language compilation, on the other hand is slow, I am aware of it. Anyway you cannot achieve the same performance of a (well) written C++ application with a (well) written application using your favourite programming language (try it). LLVM? Do you mean: "An aggressive open-source compiler for C and C++ and Stacker, a forth-like language"? :)
Veni, vidi, vici.
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Regarding the power and the popularity: Being the language that was used to develop both windows and Linux operating systems is a proof that supports c\c++ as the best middle level languages not the contrary. I think this is because accidentally c++ was the first most complete in logic language that has been invented, since then, even now.So most of people learned it and wrote their programs with it. That is why it became the most popular. The fact that most of people use it and recommend it for their friends because they don't know except it, i think this is false, especially for the professional programmers who do this for living. You will find most of them master more than 3 or 4 languages. Most of the people still use it because it is still valid for most of purposes. You can code for any operating system, any new device. For example if I'm using vb can i code programs for i pad??!! So i agree with you for coding for general purposes you or we can chose any other easier language, this is correct, and i support, but regarding serious issues and for those who want to program for many purposes being real professionals you will find yourself forced to chose c++. Regarding load and other technical issues: Sorry, the reasons you mentioned for considering C++ not the optimal language, for example the arrange of header files, i think it returns to your team bad choices not to the language itself. The lines of code are compiled the order you put. Even if we agree and i agree that there is nothing optimal, especially at the field of science, and we are expecting the better. Tell me what is the alternative you propose to get rid of C++. I accept all alternatives. Is there anybody find something makes his life easier and not following it. I think he is ........ hahaha. You my dear mentioned the problem without mentioning the solution. Propose a solution and let us discus. The fact is , i think , it is difficult and expensive to write a new language like that one you and we dream of. Even if some company did so, and i think some did especially Microsoft, they wouldn't release it for commercial use easily like that. That would be one of the company precious treasures, and will be kept as a secret. No one these days invent something makes his work easily and let it go in public like that. Regarding the market side: Microsoft is trying to kill C++ to control the market when they make all visual studio equal regarding linking and compiling but i thing they wouldn't succeed, because they live on t
ah_ga_ah wrote:
for many purposes being real professionals you will find yourself forced to chose c++
Agree with the whole paragraph. Oh my god! Finally someone gets it!!! :-) Thank you!!!
ah_ga_ah wrote:
Sorry, the reasons you mentioned for considering C++ not the optimal language, for example the arrange of header files, i think it returns to your team bad choices not to the language itself.
This is at least a decade old legacy code, how the hell could we grow out 2 million lines of code? :-D :-D :-D Anyway an include hell can be rearranged in 1-2 days even in such a big project if you did it a few times. Just mentioned this to show that headers are bad in general because they give you one more unnecessary problem to look at. Such big codebase is usually grown by big companies who replace their people relatively often and not all of them are good or able to maintain some aspects of such a codebase. I'm also making mistakes. As a result more and more mistakes are made if the language allows that because noone is superman. Its sad but this is not the first big codebase I'm working with and most of them suffers from some problems that could be avoided with a good language that doesn't have the deficiencies of C/C++. C/C++ is way too allowing language.
ah_ga_ah wrote:
You my dear mentioned the problem without mentioning the solution. Propose a solution and let us discus.
Agree, I haven't mentioned a solution because "everyone knows" that there is no true alternative currently. I didn't want to do that, my post had a totally different purpose. I wanted to point out that having no alternative still doesn't mean that C/C++ stands it ground well in every aspect but you understood this.
ah_ga_ah wrote:
The fact is , i think , it is difficult and expensive to write a new language like that one you and we dream of.
Here comes the reason for my post: I think not every people are dreaming of that language. Lot of people know only C and/or C++ thinking that its the best language of the world for everything and they are just lying in the matrix without seeing the C/C++ defects. My post just wanted to open some eyes, but most of them is OK with their lives in the matrix. I guess you are the only poster in this discussion having some understanding of my cries. :-) The sum
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Again you didn't understand. C language compilation is relatively fast. C++ language compilation, on the other hand is slow, I am aware of it. Anyway you cannot achieve the same performance of a (well) written C++ application with a (well) written application using your favourite programming language (try it). LLVM? Do you mean: "An aggressive open-source compiler for C and C++ and Stacker, a forth-like language"? :)
Veni, vidi, vici.
llvm was started to kill off gcc, so its first frontends are C and C++. Its a nice clean compiler infrastructure that already has other frontends and you can integrate any other languages relatively easy compared to the same work with for example gcc. Its a beam of hope to get rid of the "C++ is good because its the optimal" reasoning because that is simply ridiculous and still doesn't change the fact that both C and C++ are defective. And yes, compiling C is much faster, but on the other hand a C project is also much harder to maintain and the language features don't give much support to arrange huge codebases. The biggest C codebase was around 100.000 loc and it was already hard to navigate. The lack of type safety and typeless linking, lack of namespaces (and the list goes on) give way too much space for human errors. Yes, C code compiles faster but it misses lots of nice features that wouldn't require you to sacrifice compile speed.
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llvm was started to kill off gcc, so its first frontends are C and C++. Its a nice clean compiler infrastructure that already has other frontends and you can integrate any other languages relatively easy compared to the same work with for example gcc. Its a beam of hope to get rid of the "C++ is good because its the optimal" reasoning because that is simply ridiculous and still doesn't change the fact that both C and C++ are defective. And yes, compiling C is much faster, but on the other hand a C project is also much harder to maintain and the language features don't give much support to arrange huge codebases. The biggest C codebase was around 100.000 loc and it was already hard to navigate. The lack of type safety and typeless linking, lack of namespaces (and the list goes on) give way too much space for human errors. Yes, C code compiles faster but it misses lots of nice features that wouldn't require you to sacrifice compile speed.
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pasztorpisti wrote:
"C++ is good because its the optimal" reasoning because that is simply ridiculous
Your point is ridiculous. You have nothing to bear out it.
Veni, vidi, vici.
CPallini wrote:
Your point is ridiculous. You have nothing to bear out it.
Which point from the many listed in my posts?
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CPallini wrote:
Your point is ridiculous. You have nothing to bear out it.
Which point from the many listed in my posts?
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I will tell it to my mom! :-)
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I will tell it to my mom! :-)
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The C and C++ languages are disastrous. They leave so many doors open for bugs and programming mistakes and they have other design failures (like header files that terribly slow down the compile time). The only valid reason for their existence is that most of today's libraries and operating systems are written using these languages. The interface of the majority of libraries and operating system APIs are still C based. Even if you try to replace these languages I think you need 3 different languages to build a whole operating system up on top of bare hardware. A minimal amount of assembly to communicate with hardware, a thin layer of relatively high level but unsafe language that allows for manual memory management in the low-level part of the operating system, and a high level safe language that can be used to write the top level of the operating system and the user programs. C/C++ could be something like the middle from these 3 languages but it would be easier to design a much better language than C/C++ with the same capabilities. Again, the only reason for the existence of C/C++ is massive amount of legacy code. EDIT: This post of mine became quite 'popular', for this reason I would like to link one of my other posts that contains a more comprehensive (but not full) list of my reasonings at the end of this quite long debate: http://www.codeproject.com/Messages/4377527/Re-What-makes-C-and-Cplusplus-a-good-language.aspx[^] Also would like to mention that I have extensive background in low level programming including assembly, C, and C++, reverse engineering and I'm not a 'just because'-type of hater of C/C++ who used only scripts and managed languages - I don't hate C/C++ at all. I respect these languages because they have been fun for me to program in, they helped the world to become better, but we have to see their obvious defects as well. Thanks for reading.
pasztorpisti wrote:
have other design failures (like header files that terribly slow down the compile time)
That's not a design failure. Something other woudln't be possible at that time. First Header-Files were made for easy reading classes. There was no Syntax-Highlighting or code-analysis while editing. You had jsut the VI. Second Point: It was easier to compile that with 16kb or less many machines had in those days, instead of building crossreferences at compiletime.
pasztorpisti wrote:
A minimal amount of assembly to communicate with hardware, a thin layer of relatively high level but unsafe language that allows for manual memory management in the low-level part of the operating system, and a high level safe language that can be used to write the top level of the operating system and the user programs
I think Oberon can do all three levels. But who programms in Oberon at all?! :-\ C/C++ is fast, lean but it's not designed for everything. It's good to be backend for complex algorithms but not for frontend. There are tools which close all memory leaks, but they are very expensive.
------------------------------ Author of Primary ROleplaying SysTem How do I take my coffee? Black as midnight on a moonless night. War doesn't determine who's right. War determines who's left.
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The less mistakes a language lets to make, the better the language is. Its not real knowledge to learn to deal with the idiotic features of a complex language. If you work in a big team its more likely that someone will be unable to "design". On the other hand the header include are nowhere for example compared to turbo pascal/delphi units. Every other normal language uses some kind of "units" that contain data preprocessed for the compile to make things faster and easier. On the other hand only people how don't have experience with massive codebases don't feel the significance of the slow compilation times caused by header includes.
pasztorpisti wrote:
The less mistakes a language lets to make, the better the language is.
Wrong. If you spend even 10% of your time fixing "language" mistakes versus logic/design/requirements mistakes in your code then at best you are an atypical developer.
pasztorpisti wrote:
If you work in a big team its more likely that someone will be unable to "design".
If you work on a big team then it is almost 100% guaranteed that complexity issues will become the most serious development impediment.
pasztorpisti wrote:
Every other normal language uses some kind of "units" that contain data preprocessed for the compile to make things faster and easier....
As I already said, if you think this is a a significant problem in C/C++ then it is because there is a problem in the design. And the SAME exact problem can show up in Java/C# projects.