Is Windows 8 too radical for you?
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The operating system's Metro interface is almost sure to cause a surge in calls to the enterprise help desk as users contend with tiles where the familiar 'Start' button and 'Explorer' icon used to be. ---------------- With a host of new tools and capabilities--such as Secure Boot, Windows To Go and greatly improved file management--Windows 8 may have broad appeal in a variety of businesses.
I like Windows 8 just fine. Give it some time and you might like it too.
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The operating system's Metro interface is almost sure to cause a surge in calls to the enterprise help desk as users contend with tiles where the familiar 'Start' button and 'Explorer' icon used to be. ---------------- With a host of new tools and capabilities--such as Secure Boot, Windows To Go and greatly improved file management--Windows 8 may have broad appeal in a variety of businesses.
I like Windows 8 just fine. Give it some time and you might like it too.
GeekForChrist wrote:
I like Windows 8 just fine. Give it some time and you might like it too
I can't stand it. What I can't stand most is that, at its core it's an excellent OS. Security, the tweaks like the resource manager, file copies, the underlying security, and the general stability is excellent. A far more stable and flexible OS than iOS, and I use both. The split of the UI, however, is so clumsily done that the fall is the worse for it being on something that should be so much better. I used to go back to iOS and complain about dumb things like having to eject USB storage, or not being able to shake a window and have all other windows collapse, or the stupidness of the "+" sign on iTunes minimising it. Now I no longer complain. Now I just stay quiet and sad.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
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GeekForChrist wrote:
I like Windows 8 just fine. Give it some time and you might like it too
I can't stand it. What I can't stand most is that, at its core it's an excellent OS. Security, the tweaks like the resource manager, file copies, the underlying security, and the general stability is excellent. A far more stable and flexible OS than iOS, and I use both. The split of the UI, however, is so clumsily done that the fall is the worse for it being on something that should be so much better. I used to go back to iOS and complain about dumb things like having to eject USB storage, or not being able to shake a window and have all other windows collapse, or the stupidness of the "+" sign on iTunes minimising it. Now I no longer complain. Now I just stay quiet and sad.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
The split of the UI, however, is so clumsily done that the fall is the worse for it being on something that should be so much better.
I agree that the split is quite clumsy. I guess I got used to it out of a feeling of necessity.
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GeekForChrist wrote:
I like Windows 8 just fine. Give it some time and you might like it too
I can't stand it. What I can't stand most is that, at its core it's an excellent OS. Security, the tweaks like the resource manager, file copies, the underlying security, and the general stability is excellent. A far more stable and flexible OS than iOS, and I use both. The split of the UI, however, is so clumsily done that the fall is the worse for it being on something that should be so much better. I used to go back to iOS and complain about dumb things like having to eject USB storage, or not being able to shake a window and have all other windows collapse, or the stupidness of the "+" sign on iTunes minimising it. Now I no longer complain. Now I just stay quiet and sad.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
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GeekForChrist wrote:
I like Windows 8 just fine. Give it some time and you might like it too
I can't stand it. What I can't stand most is that, at its core it's an excellent OS. Security, the tweaks like the resource manager, file copies, the underlying security, and the general stability is excellent. A far more stable and flexible OS than iOS, and I use both. The split of the UI, however, is so clumsily done that the fall is the worse for it being on something that should be so much better. I used to go back to iOS and complain about dumb things like having to eject USB storage, or not being able to shake a window and have all other windows collapse, or the stupidness of the "+" sign on iTunes minimising it. Now I no longer complain. Now I just stay quiet and sad.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
Chris Maunder wrote:
The split of the UI, however, is so clumsily done that the fall is the worse for it being on something that should be so much better.
I agree that it is quite clumsy, and the context switching is a jarring experience, but from a UX perspective it gets even worse. One of my first experiences when I installed Win8 on my laptop last week was installing Chrome then logging in to Twitter. After a bit of dev work I alt+tabbed back to Chrome, navigated to Twitter then discovered that it had forgotten my credentials. After much head-scratching I realised that I had logged in and stored my auth details on the 'Metro' Chrome, but the second time had navigated to a desktop Chrome Window. Your "average joe" user is never going to work that one out! As an app developer I really want to communicate between these two divides in the OS. For example, if I developed a desktop / metro twitter app I would like to share state so that an end user could use the Twitter client in desktop mode at their desk, then pull their fancy tablet from the dock to go for a walk, open up the Metro Twitter client and find their feed is at exactly the same scroll position. I'm tempted to write a simple concept app to show how I think this sort of thing should be done! Colin E.
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i haven't really done too much reading but i think my investment in WPF is now considered obsolete.
dev
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Chris Maunder wrote:
The split of the UI, however, is so clumsily done that the fall is the worse for it being on something that should be so much better.
I agree that it is quite clumsy, and the context switching is a jarring experience, but from a UX perspective it gets even worse. One of my first experiences when I installed Win8 on my laptop last week was installing Chrome then logging in to Twitter. After a bit of dev work I alt+tabbed back to Chrome, navigated to Twitter then discovered that it had forgotten my credentials. After much head-scratching I realised that I had logged in and stored my auth details on the 'Metro' Chrome, but the second time had navigated to a desktop Chrome Window. Your "average joe" user is never going to work that one out! As an app developer I really want to communicate between these two divides in the OS. For example, if I developed a desktop / metro twitter app I would like to share state so that an end user could use the Twitter client in desktop mode at their desk, then pull their fancy tablet from the dock to go for a walk, open up the Metro Twitter client and find their feed is at exactly the same scroll position. I'm tempted to write a simple concept app to show how I think this sort of thing should be done! Colin E.
Colin Eberhardt wrote:
I'm tempted to write a simple concept app to show how I think this sort of thing should be done!
Please do! Seriously - this would be incredibly valuable.
cheers, Chris Maunder The Code Project | Co-founder Microsoft C++ MVP
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Chris Maunder wrote:
The split of the UI, however, is so clumsily done that the fall is the worse for it being on something that should be so much better.
I agree that it is quite clumsy, and the context switching is a jarring experience, but from a UX perspective it gets even worse. One of my first experiences when I installed Win8 on my laptop last week was installing Chrome then logging in to Twitter. After a bit of dev work I alt+tabbed back to Chrome, navigated to Twitter then discovered that it had forgotten my credentials. After much head-scratching I realised that I had logged in and stored my auth details on the 'Metro' Chrome, but the second time had navigated to a desktop Chrome Window. Your "average joe" user is never going to work that one out! As an app developer I really want to communicate between these two divides in the OS. For example, if I developed a desktop / metro twitter app I would like to share state so that an end user could use the Twitter client in desktop mode at their desk, then pull their fancy tablet from the dock to go for a walk, open up the Metro Twitter client and find their feed is at exactly the same scroll position. I'm tempted to write a simple concept app to show how I think this sort of thing should be done! Colin E.
Are you going with the message bus approach? That's what I've been playing around with - getting it sitting nicely in the MVVM world takes a little bit longer, but it's worth perservering with. Hmmm - I'm currently working on a Windows 8 desktop app - it wouldn't take much to reuse the code base inside the Metro world.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
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Are you going with the message bus approach? That's what I've been playing around with - getting it sitting nicely in the MVVM world takes a little bit longer, but it's worth perservering with. Hmmm - I'm currently working on a Windows 8 desktop app - it wouldn't take much to reuse the code base inside the Metro world.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
message bus? no - I had a completely different approach in mind. I'd really like to have app session state that is cloud-based and accessible from any device. That way you can move from one device to the next, from desktop, to metro, to phone. Just wondering what you mean by message bus? I have seen a few WCF-based solutions. Is there something more standard?
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Chris Maunder wrote:
The split of the UI, however, is so clumsily done that the fall is the worse for it being on something that should be so much better.
I agree that it is quite clumsy, and the context switching is a jarring experience, but from a UX perspective it gets even worse. One of my first experiences when I installed Win8 on my laptop last week was installing Chrome then logging in to Twitter. After a bit of dev work I alt+tabbed back to Chrome, navigated to Twitter then discovered that it had forgotten my credentials. After much head-scratching I realised that I had logged in and stored my auth details on the 'Metro' Chrome, but the second time had navigated to a desktop Chrome Window. Your "average joe" user is never going to work that one out! As an app developer I really want to communicate between these two divides in the OS. For example, if I developed a desktop / metro twitter app I would like to share state so that an end user could use the Twitter client in desktop mode at their desk, then pull their fancy tablet from the dock to go for a walk, open up the Metro Twitter client and find their feed is at exactly the same scroll position. I'm tempted to write a simple concept app to show how I think this sort of thing should be done! Colin E.
Colin Eberhardt wrote:
I'm tempted to write a simple concept app to show how I think this sort of thing should be done!
Don't just be tempted...do it! ;) We could use to see such an app.
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Chris Maunder wrote:
The split of the UI, however, is so clumsily done that the fall is the worse for it being on something that should be so much better.
I agree that it is quite clumsy, and the context switching is a jarring experience, but from a UX perspective it gets even worse. One of my first experiences when I installed Win8 on my laptop last week was installing Chrome then logging in to Twitter. After a bit of dev work I alt+tabbed back to Chrome, navigated to Twitter then discovered that it had forgotten my credentials. After much head-scratching I realised that I had logged in and stored my auth details on the 'Metro' Chrome, but the second time had navigated to a desktop Chrome Window. Your "average joe" user is never going to work that one out! As an app developer I really want to communicate between these two divides in the OS. For example, if I developed a desktop / metro twitter app I would like to share state so that an end user could use the Twitter client in desktop mode at their desk, then pull their fancy tablet from the dock to go for a walk, open up the Metro Twitter client and find their feed is at exactly the same scroll position. I'm tempted to write a simple concept app to show how I think this sort of thing should be done! Colin E.
< I'm going to respond at length here, because I feel this is such a critical issue for the future of Win 8, and Win devs > Colin, my first thoughts, after reading the details of Win 8's schizophrenic marriage of Desktop and Modern/ex-Metro modes on Intel CPU's, as early as May-June, were: about the issue you describe: of possible inter-operation between the two modes. I believe I posted a question here on CP about that issue more than several months ago, and asked: what is the technical road-block between an application running in Windows Desktop presenting an (optional) Modern UI, and interacting with it at very high-speed, as the end-user does whatever, or an incoming data feed changes ? I believe the answer to that question, here on CP, was: that, at that point in time: the only known way for the two modes to inter-operate was by both setting a "file change watcher," and each mode getting a notification: which would mean, of course, that Modern would have to parse the changed file, and do whatever ... and vice-versa. That information, seemed to me, at the time, baffling, almost absurd: if that remains true now: I'd conclude that effectively renders dynamic inter-operation between modes for 99% of applications impossible. However, there may be no mystery here: the lack of inter-operation could be by design by MS. Or, also plausible, I think, is that this is not by design, but just the "fall out" of having separate gigantic teams at Microsoft not being concerned with this issue. But, I think the scenario you propose here is not really dynamic inter-operation: when you describe the end-user essentially switching from one mode to another, in your example of someone "walking off" with a Surface in Modern UI "at the same place" they were in using a Desktop application, I see that as a more static scenario that requires a one-time creation of equivalent UI and state. So, in that scenario, simultaneous updating of any "symbiotic" Desktop UI and Modern UI applications do not have to be performed. Note that I am not crusading here for "dynamic inter-operation:" I can see a much more likely scenario as being the end-user wanting to switch from a Desktop app with a very complex UI to a Modern UI that is much less complex, or more limited in functionality. Second, I can easily imagine a somewhat "dynamic scenario" that, in the "Enterprise space," such an important revenue source for MS, that a big company would want workers "outside the office," with a tablet
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The operating system's Metro interface is almost sure to cause a surge in calls to the enterprise help desk as users contend with tiles where the familiar 'Start' button and 'Explorer' icon used to be. ---------------- With a host of new tools and capabilities--such as Secure Boot, Windows To Go and greatly improved file management--Windows 8 may have broad appeal in a variety of businesses.
I like Windows 8 just fine. Give it some time and you might like it too.
I like Windows 8 for it's beautiful design .
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message bus? no - I had a completely different approach in mind. I'd really like to have app session state that is cloud-based and accessible from any device. That way you can move from one device to the next, from desktop, to metro, to phone. Just wondering what you mean by message bus? I have seen a few WCF-based solutions. Is there something more standard?
I misspoke using the term MessageBus - strictly speaking, what I am talking about is using a ServiceBus. I'm currently using one that runs on a single machine only, but it wouldn't be that hard to convert it to use the Azure Service Bus to give the same functionality you are describing. Effectively, it would just be a plug and replace version for the service bus we are currently using. I got the idea for this from Mike Brown months ago - I'm pretty sure the germ of your idea will have come from the same source, so it will be interesting to see what you've come up with. Incidentally, I'm porting your Phone Interaction stuff to work with WPF on Windows 8. That's been quite interesting.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
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< I'm going to respond at length here, because I feel this is such a critical issue for the future of Win 8, and Win devs > Colin, my first thoughts, after reading the details of Win 8's schizophrenic marriage of Desktop and Modern/ex-Metro modes on Intel CPU's, as early as May-June, were: about the issue you describe: of possible inter-operation between the two modes. I believe I posted a question here on CP about that issue more than several months ago, and asked: what is the technical road-block between an application running in Windows Desktop presenting an (optional) Modern UI, and interacting with it at very high-speed, as the end-user does whatever, or an incoming data feed changes ? I believe the answer to that question, here on CP, was: that, at that point in time: the only known way for the two modes to inter-operate was by both setting a "file change watcher," and each mode getting a notification: which would mean, of course, that Modern would have to parse the changed file, and do whatever ... and vice-versa. That information, seemed to me, at the time, baffling, almost absurd: if that remains true now: I'd conclude that effectively renders dynamic inter-operation between modes for 99% of applications impossible. However, there may be no mystery here: the lack of inter-operation could be by design by MS. Or, also plausible, I think, is that this is not by design, but just the "fall out" of having separate gigantic teams at Microsoft not being concerned with this issue. But, I think the scenario you propose here is not really dynamic inter-operation: when you describe the end-user essentially switching from one mode to another, in your example of someone "walking off" with a Surface in Modern UI "at the same place" they were in using a Desktop application, I see that as a more static scenario that requires a one-time creation of equivalent UI and state. So, in that scenario, simultaneous updating of any "symbiotic" Desktop UI and Modern UI applications do not have to be performed. Note that I am not crusading here for "dynamic inter-operation:" I can see a much more likely scenario as being the end-user wanting to switch from a Desktop app with a very complex UI to a Modern UI that is much less complex, or more limited in functionality. Second, I can easily imagine a somewhat "dynamic scenario" that, in the "Enterprise space," such an important revenue source for MS, that a big company would want workers "outside the office," with a tablet
Bill - you can find an idea of what I'm talking about here[^]. Currently I'm sticking to a single machine, but the idea of the whole distributed app fabric really does interest me. The areas I've been concentrating on relate to how to partition things so that they make sense when you take multiple application form factors into account. It's proving to be an interesting challenge.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
-
The operating system's Metro interface is almost sure to cause a surge in calls to the enterprise help desk as users contend with tiles where the familiar 'Start' button and 'Explorer' icon used to be. ---------------- With a host of new tools and capabilities--such as Secure Boot, Windows To Go and greatly improved file management--Windows 8 may have broad appeal in a variety of businesses.
I like Windows 8 just fine. Give it some time and you might like it too.
"With a host of new tools and capabilities--such as Secure Boot, Windows To Go and greatly improved file management--Windows 8 may have broad appeal in a variety of businesses." You're kidding, right? I mean, I sure can't wait for secure boot! I'll be so secure from installing non-Microsoft software!
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I like Windows 8 for it's beautiful design .
anntony_wang wrote:
I like Windows 8 for it's beautiful design .
Really? Ok, likes and dislikes are highly personal. But honestly, this is the first time I really think they over-designed this part of software. By over-designing I think of letting look and feel decide or overrule technical details too much. The marriage between mobile and desktop ends in many many small compromises, which in the end sound like: We want do have it all! Why, MS, do you think you can do Desktop AND Mobile? These two things have so few things in common I think, that putting them "somehow" together ends up with a big confusion for all users. Even MS fanboys will have a hard time. I would have highly appreciated a software vendor deciding to support the desktop like it always did, and in parallel launching it´s Apple clone "Surface" with lets say "Windows 7 Mobile"... But it was not decided this way. Still I could somehow live with it. I could switch to Linux now. But.... WHY on earth the whole world starts to adopt metro design NOW? Webpages and lots of 3rd-party stuff looks really like Kindergarten design now. With all graphic & CPU power, we reduce icons to 2-color schemes, making all things boxy? Its an offense for my eyes and for the whole development of GUI & stuff to finally end up with this simplyfied, stupid looking designs. Thats what is my pure personal meaning. regards Florian
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i havent read much but is it true Metro apps runs on WinRT API and WPF/.NET all considered obsolete? Read this?[^]
dev
devvvy wrote:
but is it true Metro apps runs on WinRT API and WPF/.NET all considered obsolete?
No. You can still run WPF/.NET apps on Windows 8. Where you get some confusion is in what you can run on Windows 8 running on ARM processors.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
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devvvy wrote:
but is it true Metro apps runs on WinRT API and WPF/.NET all considered obsolete?
No. You can still run WPF/.NET apps on Windows 8. Where you get some confusion is in what you can run on Windows 8 running on ARM processors.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier
From wikipedia:
Quote:
Limitations Only software written using the Windows Runtime (Metro style apps) can be used on Windows RT with the exception of Microsoft Office 2013 and the desktop version of Internet Explorer 10. Developers will not be able to create applications to run on Windows RT using the Win32 APIs.[10]
Eusebiu
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From wikipedia:
Quote:
Limitations Only software written using the Windows Runtime (Metro style apps) can be used on Windows RT with the exception of Microsoft Office 2013 and the desktop version of Internet Explorer 10. Developers will not be able to create applications to run on Windows RT using the Win32 APIs.[10]
Eusebiu
Now read what I actually answered, not what you think I answered. Did I state WinRT, or did I state Windows 8? WPF and .NET both happily run on Windows 8. Oh, and Wikipedia isn't always correct - something to remember before you quote from it.
*pre-emptive celebratory nipple tassle jiggle* - Sean Ewington
"Mind bleach! Send me mind bleach!" - Nagy Vilmos
CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier