The guiding philosophy behind the EU

JoeSox

Jason Henderson wrote: And, given the war-like past of Europe, this doesn't make you cringe? A little. What makes me cringe more is what our military is doing, now. My aunt is married to an Englishman and lives in England, they are Europeans, they can govern they way they wish, that is their right. Later,
JoeSox
www.joeswammi.com
Constitution Party[^]

Jason Henderson

I agree, we should let them govern themselves of course, but I don't think our military is even in the ballpark when it comes to Europe's past (and possibly future).

Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

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Daniel Ferguson

And, given the war-like past of Europe, this doesn't make you cringe? Yeah, I'm shivering with fear that those Europeans might come over here, enslave us, and make us pick cotton. :rolleyes:

"Don't stand in the shadow of my hammer", Tabula Rasa, by Covenant

Jason Henderson

Not now, in the not-so-distant future. :rolleyes:

Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

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Jason Henderson

One of the links on that site, this one[^], is absolutely outstanding.

Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

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KaRl

The firsts paragraphs (in small font) made me close to stop the reading. The same old cliché of french imperialism. I spited my anger and continued. With the historical presentation, I was happy to see I shared the views of the Author. In fact, I agreed till the sentence placing European decadence during American occupation. IMO the European decadence began in August 1914, and reached its climax in may 1945. After that, the analisys went wild, and I mainly disagreed till the end. First, the author forget the specific case of France, who gave itself the nuclear weapon in the 60's to conquer its political independance. Once this done, France went out the organized command of NATO, the supreme symbol of its independance towards the US. Supreme offence, it asked the US troops to go away, thank you. In 1966, it made the same rumble than the one we can see in the anglo-sawon media in these days. Next, the author also forget the Germano-French answer to the risk of a new German adventure. France, realizing as the other allied that the main problem of this century was a militarized Germany, had the chance to find with Adenauer and De Gaulle two leaders willing to link our countries to resolve the problem, without a spirit of domination, but with good wills from both side. And it worked. Enemies during 2 WW, the two countries were now the "motor" of European Integration, pushing to a closer and closer integration. Quiet every new steps were made because of the common will of France of Germany. This integration had several targets: 1) Prevent another European war. 2) Enhance the economy with the creation of an open market. France added a third in its mind, give to Europe a political power to counterbalance (and not oppose, as often deformed) the US and the USSR superpowers. Now, the two first points are secured. The integration of Eastern Europe promises a peaceful future. The economies are integrated, having even adopted a unique currency through the continent. The € was created to counterbalance the $ on the financial market, and give a new financial power to Europe. It sounds IMO also logical it tries to do the same on the political scene. The problem is we don't all agree on the third point. Some are really happy to be dominated lead by the US. Others disagree. That's the main reason of the current fracture, some pushing to move to an european federation, and the others pushing too, but on the brakes. Why should we be happy to be the second, now that USSR collapsed, and not t

KaRl

I also often, even mostly, agreed with this excellent article. "Most Europeans believe that it was the transformation of European politics, the deliberate abandonment and rejection of centuries of machtpolitik, that in the end made possible the "new order" I'm not one of these, IMO the ruins of WWII made it possible. I also think we european need a strong military power, because ideals can't be defended by words only, and it's not to the US to do the job alone. We can't protest when US use powers and whine about them when we need help.

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

Jorgen Sigvardsson

Domenic [Geekn] wrote: What do you see as the purpose of the EU? If you're just saying to be economically united, what's this deal with a constitution then? Eventually, it's supposed to become something pretty close to the US. I think. One currency, union laws and state laws, military defence forces, etc. Those who don't want the union (there are such people, unfortunately IMO) claim that the EU is the succession of the Third Reich. I think that's silly as the Reich was built on fascistic views, while the union is built on democratic views. In Sweden it's mostly communists and "green commies" who want out of the union. The absurdity of it is, from what I hear, that the leftwing in the rest of europe is pro-EU. I'm pro-EU in all respects. Domenic [Geekn] wrote: Why don't you get to elect EU leaders? You get to vote for them indirectly I believe. In Sweden, the elected government gets to chose who is to be a delegate/member of the EU parliament. I'm not sure, but I think this is also the case in the other member countries. There's no real reason for a direct election unless we reform our political system to something similar to what you guys have in the US. If I could decide, I'd make Europe a country just like USA and the member countries would be states very much like your states. But I doubt that would ever happen. Even if we ignore the languages, there are still way too many differences between the european countries. -- Shine like a mirror reflecting, like the sun shines. Something that comes from above, when all that remains falls below.

Mike Gaskey

KaЯl wrote: and wich would carry also the French dream of Universal Rights of Man and Citizen. It would seem that the French dream is relatively unconcerned about the opinions of the "common" man. Highlighted by the information starting at the 'Signs of Fatigue and 'Elite-led Gradualism' subheadings. http://www.techcentralstation.be/2051/wrapper.jsp?PID=2051-100&CID=2051-022103N[^] KaЯl wrote: IMO, the Europe I see is not a tool to amplify french influence a statement somewhat contrary to this opinion: http://www.techcentralstation.com/1051/defensewrapper.jsp?PID=1051-350&CID=1051-021903B[^] Mike

KaRl

Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: In Sweden, the elected government gets to chose who is to be a delegate/member of the EU parliament. I'm not sure, but I think this is also the case in the other member countries Here we directly elect our representants to the European Parliament.The problem is the weakness of this Parliament, it has few powers. I sometimes think we should have the same system than in the US, adding a Senate where States would be equally represented. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: But I doubt that would ever happen I doubt also it would happen before centuries between 30 european nations. But I hope it could be with a smaller core of nations.

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

KaRl

Mike Gaskey wrote: _http://www.techcentralstation.be/2051/wrapper.jsp?PID=2051-100&CID=2051-022103N\[^\]_ Once removed the conservative flamatory crap, the article is right.The more and more we were in the Union (6, 9, 10, 12 now 15, tomorrow 24, or 27), the more and more the willing was diluted. That's also why some of the founding countries are reluctant to integrate eastern countries, fearing it will get worse. IMO, the simili-constitution they're trying to prepare will never be adopted by the people: too many compromises, not clear enough. Mike Gaskey wrote: _http://www.techcentralstation.com/1051/defensewrapper.jsp?PID=1051-350&CID=1051-021903B\[^\]_ On the contrary, this article is pure BS. The author is highly deforming Chirac's words to make his point. He just wants to fuel the fire, he doesn't deserve any regard for that.

Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

Lost User

Actually, I'd rather you didn't discuss the EU. This is so the US doesn't realise what has happened until after its too late :laugh: The tigress is here :-D

Jorgen Sigvardsson

KaЯl wrote: But I hope it could be with a smaller core of nations. Be careful here. This is where the elite countries start making decisions for other countries. That'll just bring us closer to war. If we're going to have a common government, all states must be given the same opportunity. I really like the US congress. I think that's a fairly fair way to divide the power between the states. -- Shine like a mirror reflecting, like the sun shines. Something that comes from above, when all that remains falls below.

Daniel Ferguson

in the not-so-distant future Actually, I was thinking more of the not-so-distant past.

"Don't stand in the shadow of my hammer", Tabula Rasa, by Covenant

Mike Gaskey

KaЯl wrote: On the contrary, this article is pure BS. The author is highly deforming Chirac's words to make his point. He just wants to fuel the fire, he doesn't deserve any regard for that. are you sure that this "BS" is only the opinion of the author? http://www.adn.com/24hour/iraq/story/771671p-5550397c.html[^] Mike

Chris Losinger

you get my 5. -c

When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

Fractals

ColinDavies

Domenic [Geekn] wrote: Why don't you get to elect EU leaders? Domenic, the Euro Parliament members are ALL elected by constituents. However in the US the President is not elected by people but by the electoral colleges. And this varies from state to state how the division is implemented. Regardz Colin J Davies

Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin

I'm guessing the concept of a 2 hour movie showing two guys eating a meal and talking struck them as 'foreign' Rob Manderson wrote:

Jorgen Sigvardsson

Lol! :laugh: -- Shine like a mirror reflecting, like the sun shines. Something that comes from above, when all that remains falls below.

Anna Jayne Metcalfe

Definitely. :) Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk

"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch

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Anna Jayne Metcalfe

Trollslayer wrote: Actually, I'd rather you didn't discuss the EU. This is so the US doesn't realise what has happened until after its too late I like it! :laugh: Anna :rose: www.annasplace.me.uk

"Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
- Marcia Graesch

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