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  • L Lost User

    Paul Watson wrote: *sigh* I was trying to stay on topic. This is not the discussion. How so? The discussion is about American politicians who don't want to go to war as Saddam is not the target they should be going after. Missile is about his only form of offence as his planes wouldn't get out of their own airspace. Paul Watson wrote: But as 911 showed you don't need missiles or bombs to do damage. Now imagine 911 where instead of just planes with passengers the planes have chemical payloads or a dirty bomb? Lot more dead NYers. Yes, though the one off surprise of using passenger planes is now gone. They have no chance of getting their own planes in to US airspace. They won't be able to get the bombs of any sort on board. Paul Watson wrote: Also it is global because the terrorists are hitting US targets in other countries. Good point, never thought of it. Paul Watson wrote: And don't give me crap about Saddam not provenly linked to terrorism. Nothing more that guy would like than to help terrorists beat Bush. He hasn't been. So what if he hates Dubbya, Castro does too, is he a terrorist? Michael Martin Australia mjm68@tpg.com.au "I personally love it because I can get as down and dirty as I want on the backend, while also being able to dabble with fun scripting and presentation games on the front end." - Chris Maunder 15/07/2002

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    Paul Watson
    wrote on last edited by
    #16

    Michael Martin wrote: How so? The discussion is about American politicians who don't want to go to war as Saddam is not the target they should be going after. Missile is about his only form of offence as his planes wouldn't get out of their own airspace Listen Reindeer Boy. My original post had nothing to do with this. All I asked JoeSox was what alternatives do we have to war? That is all I wanted to talk about. But you dragged me kicking and screaming into regurgetating all this crap. Ugh, you know how much I hate arguing and talking about shit I have no clue about. Damned Aussies. ;) Michael Martin wrote: Castro does too, is he a terrorist? Castro does not have WMDs. Castro is just a tad closer to America and feels the need to be vewwy, vewwy quite. Castro has not tried to invade near-by countries. Saddam has, the guy is a danger to all those around him and through terrorist organisations the rest of the world. Michael Martin wrote: Yes, though the one off surprise of using passenger planes is now gone. They have no chance of getting their own planes in to US airspace. They won't be able to get the bombs of any sort on board. *Paul sighs deeply* Aeroplanes were at hand then. Now they will swap tactics to things like a panel van, a fishing vessel, an 18 wheeler etc. There is already lots of talk about installing nuclear detectors around every single major city in the US plus all ports. It is much harder to track a fishing vessel and a fishing vessel can carry a much bigger payload. Plus as you pointed out a plane is hard to smuggle things onto. Pretty easy getting the entire Iraqi cricket team onto a fishing vessel and sailing into NY harbour. Now, what altervatives to war do you have?

    Paul Watson
    Bluegrass
    Cape Town, South Africa

    Macbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Want a job?

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    • M Michael A Barnhart

      Paul Watson wrote: I am not 100% convinced Saddam needs to go. But the US is. So lets find a way that does not involve war. I do not have time for a full reply here but I totally agree with Paul on this. I am in the middle of reading "Bush at War - ISBN: 0743204735" and if the book is accurate Rumsfeld and Cheney are the two principle people who are convinced that Saddam is a threat. Now I tend to not appreciate either of these two, so I find this easy to believe. I personally am in a conflict here. I totally agree that evidence linking Saddam to 9/11 has not been shown so why go down this route. I also feel that Saddam is a threat in general and has defied the UN for years so when is enough enough. I also realize that these are two separate issues so let’s be honest and do not try to mix them. But how do we proceeded with out WAR? "I will find a new sig someday."

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      Paul Watson
      wrote on last edited by
      #17

      Michael A. Barnhart wrote: But how do we proceeded with out WAR? Thanks Michael, appreciate it, thought I was going to be yelling "not talking about that!" all day :-D

      Paul Watson
      Bluegrass
      Cape Town, South Africa

      Macbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Want a job?

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      • J JoeSox

        "...The world is on the brink of a war initiated by our own government against a nation which did not attack us -- a war which will steal from this nation the joy of our purpose in the world and faith in our purpose at home," said Rep. Dennis Kucinich of Ohio, who opposes military action. "Iraq was not responsible for the attack on the World Trade Center or the Pentagon. Iraq has not been credibly linked to al Qaeda's role in 9/11. Iraq was not responsible for the anthrax attack on our nation. Iraq does not have technology to strike this nation," he said. "Inspections are necessary. War is not." Sharpton said Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein "is not a man that any of us would support and, clearly, has done grave atrocities." But Sharpton said Bush has not made the case that war is the only option to deal with Iraq, and his push for military action points out the administration's misplaced priorities. "He tells us in the name of war that we must be proud to give our lives to defend the country, and we should," Sharpton said. "But how is it an honor for working-class young men and women to risk their lives in Iraq, but it's a burden for the rich to pay their share of taxes in America?"... http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/02/23/dnc.bush/index.html[^] Later,
        JoeSox
        www.joeswammi.com
        A Season in Hell[^]

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        Kant
        wrote on last edited by
        #18

        "In two short years, George W. Bush has taught us what the 'W' stands for -- wrong" - Sen. John Edwards Follow live World Cup Cricket scores here[^]

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        • J JoeSox

          Sorry, I should have expanded my thought. Paul Watson wrote: How else can Saddam be removed from power? Inspections are the only way to keep him from becoming more of a global threat than he already is, if he is at all, without the use of force. Just imagine if we had this much technology and a UN as strong as we have today babysitting Hitler, maybe some people who died might still be living today. Not everything has to be won by bloodshed. Sometimes words are stronger than any other weapon. I like the use your head than sword approach. Their is always many ways to write a function that produces the same results. Later,
          JoeSox
          www.joeswammi.com
          A Season in Hell[^]

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          Jason Henderson
          wrote on last edited by
          #19

          JoeSox wrote: Inspections are the only way to keep him from becoming more of a global threat than he already is, if he is at all, without the use of force. You are living in a dream world my friend. Inspections have not worked and are not working now. Hans Blix even admits that Saddam is playing games.

          Jason Henderson
          "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

          articles profile

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          • P Paul Watson

            Michael Martin wrote: How so? The discussion is about American politicians who don't want to go to war as Saddam is not the target they should be going after. Missile is about his only form of offence as his planes wouldn't get out of their own airspace Listen Reindeer Boy. My original post had nothing to do with this. All I asked JoeSox was what alternatives do we have to war? That is all I wanted to talk about. But you dragged me kicking and screaming into regurgetating all this crap. Ugh, you know how much I hate arguing and talking about shit I have no clue about. Damned Aussies. ;) Michael Martin wrote: Castro does too, is he a terrorist? Castro does not have WMDs. Castro is just a tad closer to America and feels the need to be vewwy, vewwy quite. Castro has not tried to invade near-by countries. Saddam has, the guy is a danger to all those around him and through terrorist organisations the rest of the world. Michael Martin wrote: Yes, though the one off surprise of using passenger planes is now gone. They have no chance of getting their own planes in to US airspace. They won't be able to get the bombs of any sort on board. *Paul sighs deeply* Aeroplanes were at hand then. Now they will swap tactics to things like a panel van, a fishing vessel, an 18 wheeler etc. There is already lots of talk about installing nuclear detectors around every single major city in the US plus all ports. It is much harder to track a fishing vessel and a fishing vessel can carry a much bigger payload. Plus as you pointed out a plane is hard to smuggle things onto. Pretty easy getting the entire Iraqi cricket team onto a fishing vessel and sailing into NY harbour. Now, what altervatives to war do you have?

            Paul Watson
            Bluegrass
            Cape Town, South Africa

            Macbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Want a job?

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            Jason Henderson
            wrote on last edited by
            #20

            I was just looking at your website. Those pictures are quite good. You're a very talented photographer. Would you mind if I downloaded some of them for wallpaper?

            Jason Henderson
            "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

            articles profile

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            • K Kant

              "In two short years, George W. Bush has taught us what the 'W' stands for -- wrong" - Sen. John Edwards Follow live World Cup Cricket scores here[^]

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              Jason Henderson
              wrote on last edited by
              #21

              This coming from a man who has a vested interest in a bad economy and a war that goes badly for Bush. Sorry, but I just can't trust any democratic candidate at this point. They have offered no alternatives and no solutions.

              Jason Henderson
              "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

              articles profile

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              • J Jason Henderson

                I was just looking at your website. Those pictures are quite good. You're a very talented photographer. Would you mind if I downloaded some of them for wallpaper?

                Jason Henderson
                "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

                articles profile

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                Paul Watson
                wrote on last edited by
                #22

                Jason Henderson wrote: Would you mind if I downloaded some of them for wallpaper? Please go ahead, I would be honoured :-D If any of the images you get off the site are not big enough for your monitor then just email me and I can send you the original (not compressed for the web) which is much better quality. Jason Henderson wrote: Those pictures are quite good. You're a very talented photographer. :-O thanks. So my photographs are better than my war talk huh? ;)

                Paul Watson
                Bluegrass
                Cape Town, South Africa

                Macbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Want a job?

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                • P Paul Watson

                  SteveKing wrote: Why do you want Saddam removed? Sure he's an asshole, but many leaders are. The reality is that the US will not stop until he is gone. Everyone must have accepted that reality by now. So I have put aside my idealistic "Lets chat to him and offer him a pension plan" thoughts and decided that trying to find other ways of appeasing the US is our best and only course of action. I am not 100% convinced Saddam needs to go. But the US is. So lets find a way that does not involve war. SteveKing wrote: And you don't know what person will replace him - maybe that will be much worser... Indeed. A point the US is failing to answer in any credible way. What are the After War plans?

                  Paul Watson
                  Bluegrass
                  Cape Town, South Africa

                  Macbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Want a job?

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                  Michael P Butler
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #23

                  Paul Watson wrote: I am not 100% convinced Saddam needs to go. You surprise me Paul. The guy is responsible for one of the worst regimes in the world at the moment. Peope live in fear under him, they have no freedom to express their own views. People just disappear, are tortured and murdered. His not the only one in the world, but he is one of the easiest to go after. We have to show that this kind of treatment of people cannot be tolerated anymore. Be it, Iraq, Korea, Zimbawae, or anywhere else the ruling powers oppress their people. Michael Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman. All the world's waiting for you, and the power you possess. In your satin tights, Fighting for your rights And the old Red, White and Blue.

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                  • M Michael P Butler

                    Paul Watson wrote: I am not 100% convinced Saddam needs to go. You surprise me Paul. The guy is responsible for one of the worst regimes in the world at the moment. Peope live in fear under him, they have no freedom to express their own views. People just disappear, are tortured and murdered. His not the only one in the world, but he is one of the easiest to go after. We have to show that this kind of treatment of people cannot be tolerated anymore. Be it, Iraq, Korea, Zimbawae, or anywhere else the ruling powers oppress their people. Michael Wonder Woman, Wonder Woman. All the world's waiting for you, and the power you possess. In your satin tights, Fighting for your rights And the old Red, White and Blue.

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                    Paul Watson
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #24

                    Michael P Butler wrote: You surprise me Paul. The guy is responsible for one of the worst regimes in the world at the moment. Peope live in fear under him, they have no freedom to express their own views. People just disappear, are tortured and murdered. His not the only one in the world, but he is one of the easiest to go after. We have to show that this kind of treatment of people cannot be tolerated anymore. Be it, Iraq, Korea, Zimbawae, or anywhere else the ruling powers oppress their people. Ideally I agree with you. But now we are getting back to the whole "Who should be the police then? We don't want the US." issue. Also once Saddam goes, who is going to take his place? Will they be any better? And war is going to harm the country, and it's people, even more. So is there a better way of getting rid of Saddam? Also the "I am not 100% convinced Saddam needs to go" statement is more based on the reasons the US are giving. On that playing field there is not much proof and to me it looks more like Bush just being a bully with a personal vendetta and the world does not need that. It is not based on Saddams human rights abuse record or anything like that. This is why so many people are against Bush. They see Evil Saddam and they see Raging Bush. Letting Raging Bush have free reign is quite a scary thought. If we all just give in and say "US knows best, go ahead start liberating the world please" then... well I don't know how good that will be. We are sick of the US throwing it's weight around. So you are scared, sorry terrible thing that happened to you, but give us some hope that you actually care about the rest of us. Everyone knows the US can do what it wants, but we are hoping you don't because then you become no better than Saddam and the others. If human rights is the reason why the US is liberating Iraq then why aren't they regime-changing Zimbabwe too? Plenty of other countries as well.

                    Paul Watson
                    Bluegrass
                    Cape Town, South Africa

                    Macbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Want a job?

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                    • J Jason Henderson

                      JoeSox wrote: Inspections are the only way to keep him from becoming more of a global threat than he already is, if he is at all, without the use of force. You are living in a dream world my friend. Inspections have not worked and are not working now. Hans Blix even admits that Saddam is playing games.

                      Jason Henderson
                      "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

                      articles profile

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                      JoeSox
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #25

                      Jason Henderson wrote: You are living in a dream world my friend. Inspections have not worked and are not working now. Why are they not working? I don't think starting a war is a solution. Later,
                      JoeSox
                      www.joeswammi.com
                      A Season in Hell[^]

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                      • J JoeSox

                        Jason Henderson wrote: You are living in a dream world my friend. Inspections have not worked and are not working now. Why are they not working? I don't think starting a war is a solution. Later,
                        JoeSox
                        www.joeswammi.com
                        A Season in Hell[^]

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                        Ray Cassick
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #26

                        JoeSox wrote: Why are they not working? Tell me how you think they ARE working. Are the inspections holding off war. YES, but only as long has Sadam chooses to keep going along witht hem. Are the inspections FIXING the reason why we are here in the first place? NO. Even if he does disarm, one the inspectors are gone he will start all over again. Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.

                        Paul Watson wrote: "At the end of the day it is what you produce that counts, not how many doctorates you have on the wall."
                        George Carlin wrote: "Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things."

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                        • J Jason Henderson

                          This coming from a man who has a vested interest in a bad economy and a war that goes badly for Bush. Sorry, but I just can't trust any democratic candidate at this point. They have offered no alternatives and no solutions.

                          Jason Henderson
                          "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

                          articles profile

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                          Chris Losinger
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #27

                          Jason Henderson wrote: Sorry, but I just can't trust any democratic candidate at this point. and partisan politics rears its ugly head. what color is that dragon? -c

                          When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

                          Bobber!

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                          • C Chris Losinger

                            Jason Henderson wrote: Sorry, but I just can't trust any democratic candidate at this point. and partisan politics rears its ugly head. what color is that dragon? -c

                            When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

                            Bobber!

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                            J Offline
                            Jason Henderson
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #28

                            Chris Losinger wrote: and partisan politics rears its ugly head. That's exactly what Sen. Edwards is dealing in, partisan politics. If he wants to stop belittling the president and actually state some ideas with substance, I will listen. BTW, My dragon color is White.

                            Jason Henderson
                            "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

                            articles profile

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                            • P Paul Watson

                              Michael P Butler wrote: You surprise me Paul. The guy is responsible for one of the worst regimes in the world at the moment. Peope live in fear under him, they have no freedom to express their own views. People just disappear, are tortured and murdered. His not the only one in the world, but he is one of the easiest to go after. We have to show that this kind of treatment of people cannot be tolerated anymore. Be it, Iraq, Korea, Zimbawae, or anywhere else the ruling powers oppress their people. Ideally I agree with you. But now we are getting back to the whole "Who should be the police then? We don't want the US." issue. Also once Saddam goes, who is going to take his place? Will they be any better? And war is going to harm the country, and it's people, even more. So is there a better way of getting rid of Saddam? Also the "I am not 100% convinced Saddam needs to go" statement is more based on the reasons the US are giving. On that playing field there is not much proof and to me it looks more like Bush just being a bully with a personal vendetta and the world does not need that. It is not based on Saddams human rights abuse record or anything like that. This is why so many people are against Bush. They see Evil Saddam and they see Raging Bush. Letting Raging Bush have free reign is quite a scary thought. If we all just give in and say "US knows best, go ahead start liberating the world please" then... well I don't know how good that will be. We are sick of the US throwing it's weight around. So you are scared, sorry terrible thing that happened to you, but give us some hope that you actually care about the rest of us. Everyone knows the US can do what it wants, but we are hoping you don't because then you become no better than Saddam and the others. If human rights is the reason why the US is liberating Iraq then why aren't they regime-changing Zimbabwe too? Plenty of other countries as well.

                              Paul Watson
                              Bluegrass
                              Cape Town, South Africa

                              Macbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er Want a job?

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                              brianwelsch
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #29

                              Paul Watson wrote: If we all just give in and say "US knows best, go ahead start liberating the world please" then... well I don't know how good that will be From an American point of view, I don't want to pay for it either. I personally pay around $3000 per year for our military. If it keeps growing I'm really going to start being pissed. (as if that would matter :-O) BW "We get general information and specific information, but none of the specific information talks about time, place or methods or means..." - Tom Ridge - US Secretary of Homeland Security

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                              • J Jason Henderson

                                Chris Losinger wrote: and partisan politics rears its ugly head. That's exactly what Sen. Edwards is dealing in, partisan politics. If he wants to stop belittling the president and actually state some ideas with substance, I will listen. BTW, My dragon color is White.

                                Jason Henderson
                                "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

                                articles profile

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                                Chris Losinger
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #30

                                Jason Henderson wrote: If he wants to stop belittling the president and actually state some ideas with substance, I will listen. well, we already know that the only ideas you like are those that agree with GWB. :b just about 50% of the rest of the country aren't all that impressed with GWB, and might welcome a change. -c

                                When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

                                Bobber!

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                                • J JoeSox

                                  "...The world is on the brink of a war initiated by our own government against a nation which did not attack us -- a war which will steal from this nation the joy of our purpose in the world and faith in our purpose at home," said Rep. Dennis Kucinich of Ohio, who opposes military action. "Iraq was not responsible for the attack on the World Trade Center or the Pentagon. Iraq has not been credibly linked to al Qaeda's role in 9/11. Iraq was not responsible for the anthrax attack on our nation. Iraq does not have technology to strike this nation," he said. "Inspections are necessary. War is not." Sharpton said Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein "is not a man that any of us would support and, clearly, has done grave atrocities." But Sharpton said Bush has not made the case that war is the only option to deal with Iraq, and his push for military action points out the administration's misplaced priorities. "He tells us in the name of war that we must be proud to give our lives to defend the country, and we should," Sharpton said. "But how is it an honor for working-class young men and women to risk their lives in Iraq, but it's a burden for the rich to pay their share of taxes in America?"... http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/02/23/dnc.bush/index.html[^] Later,
                                  JoeSox
                                  www.joeswammi.com
                                  A Season in Hell[^]

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                                  brianwelsch
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #31

                                  JoeSox wrote: "But how is it an honor for working-class young men and women to risk their lives in Iraq, but it's a burden for the rich to pay their share of taxes in America?"... Sharpton is still an idiot. The rich are paying their share of taxes. The poor don't have the means to. Also, the military is voluntary. If it were percieved to be a burden to join, few would do it. BW "We get general information and specific information, but none of the specific information talks about time, place or methods or means..." - Tom Ridge - US Secretary of Homeland Security

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                                  • C Chris Losinger

                                    Jason Henderson wrote: If he wants to stop belittling the president and actually state some ideas with substance, I will listen. well, we already know that the only ideas you like are those that agree with GWB. :b just about 50% of the rest of the country aren't all that impressed with GWB, and might welcome a change. -c

                                    When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

                                    Bobber!

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                                    B Offline
                                    brianwelsch
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #32

                                    Chris Losinger wrote: just about 50% of the rest of the country aren't all that impressed with GWB, and might welcome a change And they still offer no alternatives, no solutions. Just more bitching. BW "We get general information and specific information, but none of the specific information talks about time, place or methods or means..." - Tom Ridge - US Secretary of Homeland Security

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                                    0
                                    • B brianwelsch

                                      Chris Losinger wrote: just about 50% of the rest of the country aren't all that impressed with GWB, and might welcome a change And they still offer no alternatives, no solutions. Just more bitching. BW "We get general information and specific information, but none of the specific information talks about time, place or methods or means..." - Tom Ridge - US Secretary of Homeland Security

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                                      Chris Losinger
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #33

                                      brianwelsch wrote: And they still offer no alternatives, no solutions. Just more bitching yup. -c

                                      When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

                                      Bobber!

                                      J 1 Reply Last reply
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                                      • C Chris Losinger

                                        brianwelsch wrote: And they still offer no alternatives, no solutions. Just more bitching yup. -c

                                        When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

                                        Bobber!

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                                        Jason Henderson
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #34

                                        He he. ;)

                                        Jason Henderson
                                        "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

                                        articles profile

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                                        • C Chris Losinger

                                          Jason Henderson wrote: If he wants to stop belittling the president and actually state some ideas with substance, I will listen. well, we already know that the only ideas you like are those that agree with GWB. :b just about 50% of the rest of the country aren't all that impressed with GWB, and might welcome a change. -c

                                          When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.

                                          Bobber!

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                                          J Offline
                                          Jason Henderson
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #35

                                          Last I heard, his approval ratings were still in the 60s.

                                          Jason Henderson
                                          "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

                                          articles profile

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