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Basically the US would have control of the oil before someone else gets it. And there are plenty lined up :suss: The tigress is here :-D
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Basically the US would have control of the oil before someone else gets it. And there are plenty lined up :suss: The tigress is here :-D
It will be interesting to see what happens if alternet fuel sources (ie hydrogen car) are developed and the need for oil diminishes. Michael Shuster Good judgement comes from experience; Experience comes from bad judgement.
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He's damned no matter what he talks about. The Pal/Israeli conflict is more complex than most people think and its not about freedom for Palestinians, its about death to Israel. A Palestinian state will only exhaserbate the problem, IMO. Here is a different take [^]on the Arab/Israeli conflict which I'm sure the NY Times would never publish.
Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - GandhiI've read this article, and I was surprized as the end. The author always writes about arab countries, and finally he writes: "Imagine a free Afghanistan. Imagine a free Iran" AFAIK, Iran and Afghanistan are not arab countries, are they? Such a mistake weakens deeply the credibility of the author, IMO. He also make historical conclusions without any demonstration or arguments, just reproductions of newpapers articles, and we all know the solidity of such "things". Some points are also disturbing, for example: "There was no Jewish conspiracy to chase Arabs out of their homes in 1948. It never happened" Is the massacre at Deir Yassin a legend? :confused: (Just to be clear, I don't support one side against the other, I think they are both wrong when killing them eachother) That's why I would classify it as a polemical essay, nothing more.
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
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I've read this article, and I was surprized as the end. The author always writes about arab countries, and finally he writes: "Imagine a free Afghanistan. Imagine a free Iran" AFAIK, Iran and Afghanistan are not arab countries, are they? Such a mistake weakens deeply the credibility of the author, IMO. He also make historical conclusions without any demonstration or arguments, just reproductions of newpapers articles, and we all know the solidity of such "things". Some points are also disturbing, for example: "There was no Jewish conspiracy to chase Arabs out of their homes in 1948. It never happened" Is the massacre at Deir Yassin a legend? :confused: (Just to be clear, I don't support one side against the other, I think they are both wrong when killing them eachother) That's why I would classify it as a polemical essay, nothing more.
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
KaЯl wrote: AFAIK, Iran and Afghanistan are not arab countries, are they? Such a mistake weakens deeply the credibility of the author, IMO. He also talks about muslim/ME countries, and the article spirit is attitude-oriented and not geographical. Also the article is an abbreviated version of the talk, so context could be lost. KaЯl wrote: "There was no Jewish conspiracy to chase Arabs out of their homes in 1948. It never happened" Is the massacre at Deir Yassin a legend? It happened, but make it conspiracy is too much. Deir Yassin was local vengence, and was never repeated in that war. Afterwards Etzel was forced to join IDF and civil-war was close (Altalena incident). The Arab calls to evacuate so bombs could be dropped are consistent. The Arab leaders simply sold the locals. Every country wanted the land, and the biggest concern was the Istiqlal movement. To weaken it, locals were called to leave, so the local warlords will lose their soldiers. KaЯl wrote: That's why I would classify it as a polemical essay, nothing more. Are there non-political essays?
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It will be interesting to see what happens if alternet fuel sources (ie hydrogen car) are developed and the need for oil diminishes. Michael Shuster Good judgement comes from experience; Experience comes from bad judgement.
There is a complication - the petrolchemical industry. We use oil for a lots more than driving ! But it would be a big help none the less :) Elaine The tigress is here :-D
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KaЯl wrote: AFAIK, Iran and Afghanistan are not arab countries, are they? Such a mistake weakens deeply the credibility of the author, IMO. He also talks about muslim/ME countries, and the article spirit is attitude-oriented and not geographical. Also the article is an abbreviated version of the talk, so context could be lost. KaЯl wrote: "There was no Jewish conspiracy to chase Arabs out of their homes in 1948. It never happened" Is the massacre at Deir Yassin a legend? It happened, but make it conspiracy is too much. Deir Yassin was local vengence, and was never repeated in that war. Afterwards Etzel was forced to join IDF and civil-war was close (Altalena incident). The Arab calls to evacuate so bombs could be dropped are consistent. The Arab leaders simply sold the locals. Every country wanted the land, and the biggest concern was the Istiqlal movement. To weaken it, locals were called to leave, so the local warlords will lose their soldiers. KaЯl wrote: That's why I would classify it as a polemical essay, nothing more. Are there non-political essays?
Felix Gartsman wrote: Also the article is an abbreviated version of the talk, so context could be lost. You're right, I grant him the benefit of the doubt. Felix Gartsman wrote: make it conspiracy is too much I suppose it's a very controversial subject, isn't it? Is there any historical (and objective) study on this point :confused: ? Felix Gartsman wrote: Are there non-political essays? Political, or polemical?
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
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Felix Gartsman wrote: Also the article is an abbreviated version of the talk, so context could be lost. You're right, I grant him the benefit of the doubt. Felix Gartsman wrote: make it conspiracy is too much I suppose it's a very controversial subject, isn't it? Is there any historical (and objective) study on this point :confused: ? Felix Gartsman wrote: Are there non-political essays? Political, or polemical?
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
KaЯl wrote: make it conspiracy is too much I suppose it's a very controversial subject, isn't it? Is there any historical (and objective) study on this point ? Very controversial, yet unimportant practically. No refugee will ever return, so other solution needed. For example, Europe (they want active role :) )will finance new cities in Arab countries/Palestine. As for objective historical study? I think it's oxymoron. Historians tend to enforce their believes into events. KaЯl wrote: Are there non-political essays? Political, or polemical? I mis-read your post. I meant political essays.
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He's damned no matter what he talks about. The Pal/Israeli conflict is more complex than most people think and its not about freedom for Palestinians, its about death to Israel. A Palestinian state will only exhaserbate the problem, IMO. Here is a different take [^]on the Arab/Israeli conflict which I'm sure the NY Times would never publish.
Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - GandhiFirst, Jason Henderson wrote: more complex than most people think and then Jason Henderson wrote: its about death to Israel most people think it's even simpler than that ??? -c
When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.
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First, Jason Henderson wrote: more complex than most people think and then Jason Henderson wrote: its about death to Israel most people think it's even simpler than that ??? -c
When history comes, it always takes you by surprise.
Complex, not in the basic reason for the conflict, but complex in the lies and stories that have been concocted for it. It can be viewed as simply the Arab states wanting to get rid of Israel, but it has been complicated by the lies. I guess I should have worded it differently.
Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi -
KaЯl wrote: make it conspiracy is too much I suppose it's a very controversial subject, isn't it? Is there any historical (and objective) study on this point ? Very controversial, yet unimportant practically. No refugee will ever return, so other solution needed. For example, Europe (they want active role :) )will finance new cities in Arab countries/Palestine. As for objective historical study? I think it's oxymoron. Historians tend to enforce their believes into events. KaЯl wrote: Are there non-political essays? Political, or polemical? I mis-read your post. I meant political essays.
Felix Gartsman wrote: Very controversial, yet unimportant practically Just for the History, it may have no pratical aspect yet, but it's IMHO always useful. Felix Gartsman wrote: As for objective historical study? I think it's oxymoron I disagree with you on this point :) For me the reference of what a history book should be is Robert Paxton's "Vichy France: Old Guard and New Order 1940-1944" (La France de Vichy). I was deeply impressed by the rigour of the demonstration: it's scientific, cartesian, so, objective. Felix Gartsman wrote: For example, Europe (they want active role ) Europe has proved that the fiercest enemies could join their destinity. Perhaps could we be an example? Felix Gartsman wrote: I mis-read your post. I meant political essays. Perhaps are all essays political, but this one was moreover polemical ;)
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
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He's damned no matter what he talks about. The Pal/Israeli conflict is more complex than most people think and its not about freedom for Palestinians, its about death to Israel. A Palestinian state will only exhaserbate the problem, IMO. Here is a different take [^]on the Arab/Israeli conflict which I'm sure the NY Times would never publish.
Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - GandhiJason Henderson wrote: its not about freedom for Palestinians, its about death to Israel Labeling one side "good" and the other "evil"? Sheesh, We'll never agree on that point. Jason Henderson wrote: A Palestinian state will only exhaserbate the problem, IMO. Absolutely, as do Israeli settlers in Palestina. Interesting article - but it opens more questions than insights. From the article: They are anything but quick to generalize and stereotype – even when doing so would clearly be in their best interest. A generalization I would like to object. On the Original article: It's a noble goal, it has been among the zillion runmors of his "real plans" for quite some time, and for me is the most agreeable one. However, the points where I'd object are: a) the conditions are way different from Germany, and Japan. b) Whereever you put your "good" and "evil" labels: Can one country be allowed to force it's model of society over another, by means of war? I can't answer this question, and I think the Washington falcons shouldn't either.
If you go to war, you will destroy a great country a stoned greek chick to the richest man of the world
[sighist] | [Agile Programming] [doxygen] -
Jason Henderson wrote: its not about freedom for Palestinians, its about death to Israel Labeling one side "good" and the other "evil"? Sheesh, We'll never agree on that point. Jason Henderson wrote: A Palestinian state will only exhaserbate the problem, IMO. Absolutely, as do Israeli settlers in Palestina. Interesting article - but it opens more questions than insights. From the article: They are anything but quick to generalize and stereotype – even when doing so would clearly be in their best interest. A generalization I would like to object. On the Original article: It's a noble goal, it has been among the zillion runmors of his "real plans" for quite some time, and for me is the most agreeable one. However, the points where I'd object are: a) the conditions are way different from Germany, and Japan. b) Whereever you put your "good" and "evil" labels: Can one country be allowed to force it's model of society over another, by means of war? I can't answer this question, and I think the Washington falcons shouldn't either.
If you go to war, you will destroy a great country a stoned greek chick to the richest man of the world
[sighist] | [Agile Programming] [doxygen]peterchen wrote: Labeling one side "good" and the other "evil"? I haven't labeled them, they have labeled themselves. peterchen wrote: Absolutely, as do Israeli settlers in Palestina. Why don't we just irradiate the whole area and let them go somewhere else then? peterchen wrote: A generalization I would like to object. I beg to differ. You come to America and see if the people are discriminating against any Arabs. Logic would demand that we scrutinize more, but we have not. peterchen wrote: a) the conditions are way different from Germany, and Japan. I agree, but Japan was a huge turn around from an Imperialistic society that condoned kamikaze attacks to what they are today. Its amazing what democracy can do. peterchen wrote: Can one country be allowed to force it's model of society over another, by means of war? Yes, as a matter of fact they can and they have. Just look at Germany. ;P
Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi -
peterchen wrote: Labeling one side "good" and the other "evil"? I haven't labeled them, they have labeled themselves. peterchen wrote: Absolutely, as do Israeli settlers in Palestina. Why don't we just irradiate the whole area and let them go somewhere else then? peterchen wrote: A generalization I would like to object. I beg to differ. You come to America and see if the people are discriminating against any Arabs. Logic would demand that we scrutinize more, but we have not. peterchen wrote: a) the conditions are way different from Germany, and Japan. I agree, but Japan was a huge turn around from an Imperialistic society that condoned kamikaze attacks to what they are today. Its amazing what democracy can do. peterchen wrote: Can one country be allowed to force it's model of society over another, by means of war? Yes, as a matter of fact they can and they have. Just look at Germany. ;P
Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - GandhiJason Henderson wrote: they have labeled themselves. X| Jason Henderson wrote: Why don't we just irradiate the whole area and let them go somewhere else then? if irradiate is what babylon tells me, X|10. Palestina is neither Sodom nor Gomorran, and "you" are not God. If you're talking about the other meaning babylon tells me, You should know yourself that this is not an option (esp. knowing that the conflict is more complex than just good vs. evil) I came to america, and saw that the people there have their prejudices just as everybody everywhere else. I know that a Democracy can do amazing things. But Japan is an island, and europe was tired of virtually centuries of war. Iraq is surrounded by countries that are unlikely to accept an external way of life (esp. one brought on by christians), as beneficial as it may be. They adore US Idols - secretly, or openly, but there's a huge general disgust towards the US itself. "trade, but stay at home". Would you really like Iraq to become a second Israel down there? Germany: what are you referring to? WW2? The US, as much as the russians, were much more welcome than you are probably in Iraq - and much less with it's neighbours. And the question was: can a country be allowed, not is country able to. Rule of the strongest fist has never worked out on the long run, nad it's not what the US taught west germany as their values of freedom and democracy. Don't get me wrong: If the US goes down there, I wish them best of luck, for the "cleanest war possible". If they are willing to wager another marshal plan, the better for them (and Europe would be wrong not helping out). But the US wager a high risk for not only their own country, and more frightening the war is how far they are willing to go for it, and I rather wish they wouldn't. Bush is'nt "wrong whatever he does". If he would meet with Saddam, at a neutral place, showing the will to avoid the war, he would, for that day, be my hero.
If you go to war, you will destroy a great country a stoned greek chick to the richest man of the world
[sighist] | [Agile Programming] [doxygen] -
Basically the US would have control of the oil before someone else gets it. And there are plenty lined up :suss: The tigress is here :-D
I don't think the "oil" argument holds too tight on a logical base - even though independence of OPEC is a wonderful idea. But how much oil could the US purchase for, say , the 35bn "extra expenses, Iraq" they requested from congress last week? How much oil can they purchase for 1 million US$ per day? It wouldn't hurt their military expenses much, but would give quite some oil. It works, however, if you remember that Iraq is basically an El Dorado for Shrub's buddies. Push a pipe in the sand, and the gold will flow.
If you go to war, you will destroy a great country a stoned greek chick to the richest man of the world
[sighist] | [Agile Programming] [doxygen]