Another opinion on France as an Ally

Joao Paulo Figueira

I hope you are right. Maybe I'm already too cinical to believe...

Doug Goulden

KaЯl wrote: You're "booleanising". France opposes to a war as long as there no real proof of resistance. If SH had refused to destroy his missiles, France would IMHO have changed immediatly its stance I honestly don't think so,France hasn't addressed the idea that SH is still making more of the missles he is destroying. And I don't hear outrage about him having the drones with a 500 km range.... I can believe that you would expect your government to react that way, but I am sceptical. KaЯl wrote: Iraq had these WMD in 1991, and didn't use them. Not for moral reasons, ask to the Iranians. It's too easy to create chemical and biological weapons, individuals are able to do it, and here is IMHO the greatest danger. Individuals are not sensible to the MAD theory. So, IMHO, the first objective is to eradicate terrorism. And AFAIK, when I think terrorism, I don't think to Iraq first I completely agree that individuals aren't responsive to the idea of MAD. But SH and his family, seem almost more of a cult of personality. The Soviet Union or China although they have been the US adversaries never really showed they were in any hurry to die over their beliefs. In that respect MAD did work, they (the USSR epecially) never saw any gain in attacking. SH on the other hand destroys the things around him as a last result. Look at the oil well fires and the oil he dumped into the Persian Gulf. Look at the fact that not only did he gas the Iranians, he gassed the Kurds. IMHO its not much of a stretch to see him provide the weapons he has in limited quanities to terrorists. The Saudi's have made bargains with more radical elements to strengthen their own position with their people, SH could do the same either overtly or covertly. I really doubt that we will ever know the details about how much support SH has provided either Hamaas or Al Quada , but I do buy into the idea we should take the threat seriously. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

Doug Goulden

Man I'm bummed I have to travel out of town tommorrow, I had a really good idea for my thread tommorrow.... Top 10 reasons to dislike the French :omg:;);P Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

KaRl

Letterman is a pilar of american culture :)

I'm sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean,when you're going up against a crazed dictator,you wanna have your friends by your side. I realize it took more than 2 years before you guys pitched in against Hitler,but that was different. Everyone knew he had weapons

Doug Goulden

Thats scary all by itself :laugh: I was going to solicit input but start with 1. French Poodles 2. Women with hairy armpits 3. Prissy looking berets ..... The list could get long ;) Have a nice night I have to stop pretending to work and go do some woodworking. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

KaRl

Doug Goulden wrote: SH is still making more of the missles he is destroying. And I don't hear outrage about him having the drones with a 500 km range Have you any proof for your assertions? not secret evidences, but real ones. There are several motives to explain the opposition to a war. Some are deeply pacifists, some don't believe the case is made to justify a war. There's no invasion, no attack, and SH does what the inspectors ask. Change that and the position of the majority will change. And please, don't Forget France is not alone, quiet every country thnks like us. We are here acting like a symbol, and we like that ;P And please, don't believe in the lie saying that France is trying to regain a first-place classe in the world. I know the majority of the american believe this, but frankly, nobody here talks or thinks about this. Doug Goulden wrote: MAD. But SH and his family, seem almost more of a cult of personality Look at NK, there are masters in this game. And their atrocities are similar in horror to what the Nazis made. They have WMD. They will have H bombs. But they deserve a "multilateral approach". :wtf:! If you say SH has to be removed, I totally agree, as quiet anybody here. But it's another question. For the moment, the subject is the disarmament of Iraq. And this subject is progressing now. A war could have uncalculable consequences, for everybody, we have to be sure. If we decide to remove dictators through the world, we'll have to do a lot of work. First, let's make a list, and next agree on the means. Chinese and some others will be delighted.

I'm sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean,when you're going up against a crazed dictator,you wanna have your friends by your side. I realize it took more than 2 years before you guys pitched in against Hitler,but that was different. Everyone knew he had weapons

KaRl

Doug Goulden wrote: Have a nice night I have to stop pretending to work and go do some woodworking. Thanks, I need it :zzz: Have a nice day :)

I'm sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean,when you're going up against a crazed dictator,you wanna have your friends by your side. I realize it took more than 2 years before you guys pitched in against Hitler,but that was different. Everyone knew he had weapons

jan larsen

Kaßl wrote: You're right, so what about building an european army? Isn't that what the Western Union is all about?, I don't know much about the military cooperation in EU, because Denmark is currently not taking part in that. "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus

KaRl

The problem is some european countries see the creation of an european army as a weakening of the NATO, and fear they would loose the protection of the US umbrella.

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jan larsen

As I see it: France and UK have enough firepower to fight of any known potential enemy, and combined with the troops and weapons delivered by minor states like Sweden and Denmark, there is really no reason to fear loss of security. US is currently showing that they have other interests than their NATO partners, and that they are willing to pursue their goals even if it would destroy UN and/or NATO. I think we should consider those facts, and immediately start to work on an alternative. "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus

KaRl

I totally agree with your vision, but I'm not the one to be convinced :) What's the opinion in Denmark about the current crisis? What's the position of your government?

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jan larsen

The public opinion is against a war not sanctioned by UN, I haven't seen any polls, but I suspect more than half to be against such a war. But our prime minister hasn't promised not to join US, UK, Spain and Portugal if they attack, and we have allready send a frigate and a submarine to a district where Danish warships certainly not belong. "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus

KaRl

Thanks for all these explanations :) Denmark signed the "letter of the 8" with Britain, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Hungary, the Czech Republic and Poland, didn't it? What's your opinion on it?

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jan larsen

I think it was spitting in the eye of the EU, and what makes it worse, is that our current government consists of the two parties that are most pro EU :wtf: I can assure you, that it wasn't very popular, and the government has tried to stay low ever since, and they have been very vague in their comments. "After all it's just text at the end of the day. - Colin Davies "For example, when a VB programmer comes to my house, they may say 'does your pool need cleaning, sir ?' " - Christian Graus

KaRl

Thx again. It's a pleasure to see other people in Europe than French or German may believe in an European dream :)

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