What's wrong with the USA.
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KaЯl wrote: Eisenhower and Kennedy I'm surprised to hear that, considering they are probably the most responsible POTUS's for US involvement in Vietnam. Gee, I wonder who left Vietnam in such a screwed up mess in the first place? :rolleyes: Hint: France Mike Mullikin :beer:
Times change, politicians don't. - Anna-Jayne Metcalfe - Soapbox 10/03/2003
Hey remember Nixon got the US out of that mess ;P Liberals hate when you point that out...... Something about the truth hurting Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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KaЯl wrote: Eisenhower and Kennedy I'm surprised to hear that, considering they are probably the most responsible POTUS's for US involvement in Vietnam. Gee, I wonder who left Vietnam in such a screwed up mess in the first place? :rolleyes: Hint: France Mike Mullikin :beer:
Times change, politicians don't. - Anna-Jayne Metcalfe - Soapbox 10/03/2003
Mike Mullikin wrote: I'm surprised to hear that, considering they are probably the most responsible POTUS's for US involvement in Vietnam It seems this affirmation is already contested :) Mike Mullikin wrote: Gee, I wonder who left Vietnam in such a screwed up mess in the first place In Indochine french soldiers were as mercenaries doing the job for the US. France could never afford a war just after WW2. That's however true that a big occasion was missed in 1946 because of the internal political mess X|
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
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Hey remember Nixon got the US out of that mess ;P Liberals hate when you point that out...... Something about the truth hurting Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
At last Nixon listened finally to De Gaulle's speech in Phnom Penh in '66 ;P
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
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Mike Mullikin wrote: I'm surprised to hear that, considering they are probably the most responsible POTUS's for US involvement in Vietnam It seems this affirmation is already contested :) Mike Mullikin wrote: Gee, I wonder who left Vietnam in such a screwed up mess in the first place In Indochine french soldiers were as mercenaries doing the job for the US. France could never afford a war just after WW2. That's however true that a big occasion was missed in 1946 because of the internal political mess X|
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
KaЯl wrote: It seems this affirmation is already contested And disputed ;) KaЯl wrote: In Indochine french soldiers were as mercenaries doing the job for the US. Ummmm.... I don't know about that. Vietnam was a French colony at the time. I think France can take full responsibility for her actions and inactions. Mike Mullikin :beer:
Times change, politicians don't. - Anna-Jayne Metcalfe - Soapbox 10/03/2003
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KaЯl wrote: It seems this affirmation is already contested And disputed ;) KaЯl wrote: In Indochine french soldiers were as mercenaries doing the job for the US. Ummmm.... I don't know about that. Vietnam was a French colony at the time. I think France can take full responsibility for her actions and inactions. Mike Mullikin :beer:
Times change, politicians don't. - Anna-Jayne Metcalfe - Soapbox 10/03/2003
Mike Mullikin wrote: And disputed No doubt about it :-D Mike Mullikin wrote: I think France can take full responsibility for her actions and inactions. IMHO the man responsible of the mess of the Indochina war is the Admiral D'argenlieu, the French High Commissioner of Indochina. He made all he could to avoid an agreement with nationalists, and pushed for a war France could not afford. He constantly bared the efforts of the[
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop](http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/L/LeclercJ1.asp>Marechal Leclerc</a>, who had understood that Peace was the only solution and than the destiny of Indochina will lead the future of Algeria, another war for nothing. Once war started in 1947, in the context of the cold war, the anti-colonialist struggle changed in a East-West confrontation.<hr color=#ADBDFF width=60% align=left height=10%>
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At last Nixon listened finally to De Gaulle's speech in Phnom Penh in '66 ;P
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
Surely you aren't implying that the French history of colonialism doen't exist and that the French are lily white? BTW I remember watching the news with Walter Cronkite as a little kid and hearing how many American soldiers had died that day.... Vietnam was a tragedy and the way it was pursued was nearly criminal. I think that if you look at America now you see two outgrowths of that conflict 1. An enormous guilt among the American people for the lack of support for the troops who fought there. The American people go to enormous lengths to seperate their feeling about policy from their feelings about the people sent to enforce it. 2. The tremendous aversion that you see among some people to fight for any cause. I think that has probably always existed to some extent but after Vietnam and WaterGate there is a large amount of cynicism amonst the American population. Seems like every tim there is some sort of confrontation that rears its head. Not sure that is a bad thing, just an observation Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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I have an excellent book at home (therefore right now, I have no clue of it's title and author :-O - I'll have to get back to you on that) that paints a much different picture. It was written by a reporter that lived in Vietnam from the late 40's or early 50's. He referenced documents from Vietnamese sources as well as documents from our consulate and administration. Both Eisenhower and Kennedy were strongly warned by many advisors that Vietnam was to be avoided like the plague and both were too arrogant to listen. If either had taken the time to listen Johnson wouldn't of had to make the stupid decisions he did. Don't get me wrong, Johnson made some horrendous mistakes but Eisenhower and Kennedy put us in the position in the first place. Mike Mullikin :beer:
Times change, politicians don't. - Anna-Jayne Metcalfe - Soapbox 10/03/2003
Mike Mullikin wrote: Both Eisenhower and Kennedy were strongly warned by many advisors that Vietnam was to be avoided like the plague and both were too arrogant to listen. If either had taken the time to listen Johnson wouldn't of had to make the stupid decisions he did. Agreed. May I assume it is called "A Bright Shining Lie". Again my comment about how much public pressure was on any/all of them to act. In the late 50's or early 60's had the president just let Vietnam fall to the communists it would not have been well received. ""
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As a non american not in america I'm continually being bombarded my messages of anti - americanism. The deliverers of these messages are generally stupid people who can't hold a decent arguement let alone throw a good punch. However they exist, and the more trash they spout, unfortunately the more idiots follow them. True the USA has problems, but not as many as these jealous idiots purport. And blaming everything always on the US doesn't solve anything. Anyhow back to my Subject Line "What's wrong with the USA." asfar as I'm concerned its obesity. Regardz Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
I'm guessing the concept of a 2 hour movie showing two guys eating a meal and talking struck them as 'foreign' Rob Manderson wrote:
Colin Davies wrote: Anyhow back to my Subject Line "What's wrong with the USA." asfar as I'm concerned its obesity. Obesity, as a result of lethargy. That's the real problem. Not that our leaders are lethargic. Oh no. They're quite active in screwing the "average American". No. It is the "average American" that is lethargic. Maybe he/she's heard one too many times that he/she is "average", "common", or some other C-grade term, and has started believing it. I certainly get tired of hearing that term. There's nothing "average" about me! Marc Help! I'm an AI running around in someone's f*cked up universe simulator.
Sensitivity and ethnic diversity means celebrating difference, not hiding from it. - Christian Graus
Every line of code is a liability - Taka Muraoka
Microsoft deliberately adds arbitrary layers of complexity to make it difficult to deliver Windows features on non-Windows platforms--Microsoft's "Halloween files" -
Rohit Sinha wrote: They don't play Cricket! Somehow I think that's a life saver. ;) -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine
Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Somehow I think that's a life saver. But you don't understand! The Cricket bats and balls are not poisoned. This is not some barbarian game of who-stays-alive-in-the-end-wins you know. ;P But what would you know. You probably have never even had a poppadum in your life. :rolleyes:
Regards,Rohit Sinha
...celebrating Indian spirit and Cricket. 8MB video, really cool!
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Rohit Sinha wrote: They don't play Cricket! Lucky you! If we did, we'd pay them millions of dollars a year and they'd all come over here to play in a tournament of US Cricket teams. And the winner would be crowned 'World Champions' :rolleyes:;P -- Russell Morris "Have you gone mad Frink? Put down that science pole!"
Russell Morris wrote: Lucky you! Lucky? You guys kill an entire industry and deprive all the good players all the world over an opportunity to make decent money and then have the nerve to call us lucky? Count on the US to get it wrong. ;P
Regards,Rohit Sinha
...celebrating Indian spirit and Cricket. 8MB video, really cool!
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Surely you aren't implying that the French history of colonialism doen't exist and that the French are lily white? BTW I remember watching the news with Walter Cronkite as a little kid and hearing how many American soldiers had died that day.... Vietnam was a tragedy and the way it was pursued was nearly criminal. I think that if you look at America now you see two outgrowths of that conflict 1. An enormous guilt among the American people for the lack of support for the troops who fought there. The American people go to enormous lengths to seperate their feeling about policy from their feelings about the people sent to enforce it. 2. The tremendous aversion that you see among some people to fight for any cause. I think that has probably always existed to some extent but after Vietnam and WaterGate there is a large amount of cynicism amonst the American population. Seems like every tim there is some sort of confrontation that rears its head. Not sure that is a bad thing, just an observation Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
Doug Goulden wrote: Surely you aren't implying that the French history of colonialism doen't exist and that the French are lily white? Oh no, far from that, you misunderstood me. But if you want to really bash the role of France, look at Africa instead, there are plenty of examples :| Doug Goulden wrote: An enormous guilt among the American people for the lack of support for the troops who fought there. I understand that. I know why the soldiers were so attacked, but I don't understand it: The real responsible were the politics, the guys on the field just try to save their asses. Thanks for all these explanations :)
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
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Doug Goulden wrote: Surely you aren't implying that the French history of colonialism doen't exist and that the French are lily white? Oh no, far from that, you misunderstood me. But if you want to really bash the role of France, look at Africa instead, there are plenty of examples :| Doug Goulden wrote: An enormous guilt among the American people for the lack of support for the troops who fought there. I understand that. I know why the soldiers were so attacked, but I don't understand it: The real responsible were the politics, the guys on the field just try to save their asses. Thanks for all these explanations :)
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop
KaЯl wrote: Oh no, far from that, you misunderstood me. But if you want to really bash the role of France, look at Africa instead, there are plenty of examples I think the bottom line ends up being that people with power become corrupted by it. If a nation has a large amount of power it will use it to its advantage whether you are talking about England, France, US, or USSR every country has done it at some point. I'm personally hoping that during the current crisis the US is keeping in mind the need for our security not a want for power. My only real caveat is that when Iraq and Afghanistan are done, the U has a responsibility to help rebuild not coerce the resulting governments. Thats why I think that although war isn't preferable it is excusable. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
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KaЯl wrote: Oh no, far from that, you misunderstood me. But if you want to really bash the role of France, look at Africa instead, there are plenty of examples I think the bottom line ends up being that people with power become corrupted by it. If a nation has a large amount of power it will use it to its advantage whether you are talking about England, France, US, or USSR every country has done it at some point. I'm personally hoping that during the current crisis the US is keeping in mind the need for our security not a want for power. My only real caveat is that when Iraq and Afghanistan are done, the U has a responsibility to help rebuild not coerce the resulting governments. Thats why I think that although war isn't preferable it is excusable. Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?
Doug Goulden wrote: the U has a responsibility to help rebuild not coerce the resulting governments If they do with these new governments as they do with their oldest allies, I have a doubt about it. Sadly, I don't think invasion of Iraq will be an end, more a step. There will be thousands of problems to solve, the kind of problems which lay for centuries, as the future of an independant Kurdistan. Moreover, I don't see the hawks stop their rethoric, rather target a new country.
Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop