1933 redux

Anonymous

I agree with you that drawing historic parallels is problamatic. However, I might point out that if the US or Britain or whoever had taken Hitler out in 1933 we would still be known as the country that attacked poor defenseless Germany and killed thousands of innocent civilians in the process, and not the country that saved the lives of millions. Chris Losinger wrote: but Ashcroft is a fascist If he is, a little right wing fascism to balance 50 years of left wing fascism is long overdue.

Chris Losinger

Anonymous wrote: However, I might point out that if the US or Britain or whoever had taken Hitler out in 1933 we would still be known as the country that attacked poor defenseless Germany and killed thousands of innocent civilians in the process, and not the country that saved the lives of millions. that's probably true. and it's also entirely irrelevant to today's situation. Anonymous wrote: If he is, a little right wing fascism to balance 50 years of left wing fascism is long overdue. could you kindly describe this "fascism" of which you speak? -c

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peterchen

Anonymous wrote: If he is, a little right wing fascism to balance 50 years of left wing fascism is long overdue. Oww! a) you shouldn't post such claims anonymously b) If you're talking about the US (which I'm assuming), I must say you have no idea about left wing fascism.

If you go to war, you will destroy a great country a stoned greek chick to the richest man of the world
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Jason Henderson

Yeah, Europe's got that all figured out.

Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

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peterchen

:confused: :zzz:

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Jason Henderson

:rolleyes: :zzz: Me too.

Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

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Jason Henderson

I love how you berate someone with another opinion as a chicken-hawk or a follower. I guess I'm just a mind-numbed robot who can't think on his own. ;P AM I a knee-jerk too? It was an interesting, but flawed read, imo.

Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

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Chris Losinger

Jason Henderson wrote: I love how you berate someone with another opinion as a chicken-hawk or a follower "chicken-hawk" has nothing to do with opinion. maybe you'd prefer a different term, but the fact remains that the majority of the pro-war members of GWB's posse have never served a day in the army - and many of them, GWB at the top, avoided service in ways that should cause foaming at the mouth in all those true patriots who bitched and moaned about Clinton's non-service when he dared use his commander-in-chief powers. but let's not go there. Jason Henderson wrote: AM I a knee-jerk too? since you didn't reflexively call me an america-hating, commie, leftist hippy for daring to have an opinion that doesn't agree with GWB's, maybe not. Jason Henderson wrote: I guess I'm just a mind-numbed robot who can't think on his own for f's sake, why would you take this personally? -c

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Jason Henderson

Chris Losinger wrote: why would you take this personally? I didn't take it personally, I was just put off by it a little.

Jason Henderson
"You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

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Chris Losinger

Jason Henderson wrote: I was just put off by it a little why?

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Stan Shannon

peterchen wrote: a) you shouldn't post such claims anonymously Opps, sorry. Didn't realize I wasn't logged in on this machine. peterchen wrote: b) If you're talking about the US (which I'm assuming), I must say you have no idea about left wing fascism. To me there is little diffrence between the various political "isms". Any form of government which rationalizes its existence upon the notion that it should care for people the way parents care for their children is by its very nature fascistic, Marxist, Socialist or whatever you want to call it. Ultimately they all degrade to the same basic formula of public dependency regardless of what original political formulations were intended. If my country were allowed to function the way it was designed, it would make little difference to anyone whether Ashcroft were a fascist or not. If I'm not dependent upon him, there is little he can do to affect my life. The only thing that might make him dangerous now is the amount of power that has accrued to the federal government over the last 50 years - giving it the power to interfere in nearly every aspect of my life. "My job is to protect America" George W. Bush.

Stan Shannon

Chris Losinger wrote: that's probably true. and it's also entirely irrelevant to today's situation. Maybe, maybe not. There is no way to know what sort of position Saddam might be in 10 to 20 years from now if left unchallanged. The only real reason the Saddam=Hitler analogy cannot apply is that, unike the 1930's, the US retains an unequivocal military capability to deal with him. We have achieved the hegemony Hitler was seeking. You can think that a bad thing if you like, but it is an accomplished fact regardless. Chris Losinger wrote: could you kindly describe this "fascism" of which you speak? Oh, just for the sake of argument I might throw out such exercises of moral authoritarianism as RoeVWade, Affirmative Action, Banning school prayer. Things like that - the general disregard the federal government has shown for any constitutional restraints upon itself. "My job is to protect America" George W. Bush.

Chris Losinger

Stan Shannon wrote: Things like that - the general disregard the federal government has shown for any constitutional restraints upon itself i hardly think that's a quality that you only find on the "left" side of the government. the Republicans took big bites out of the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments with the PATRIOT act. no side is clean on this. -c

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Stan Shannon

Chris Losinger wrote: the Republicans took big bites out of the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments with the PATRIOT act. no side is clean on this. I largely agree. "My job is to protect America" George W. Bush.

Jason Henderson

Because it sounded like you were implying that all those in favor of war in iraq were mindless automotans (followers).

Jason Henderson
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Chris Losinger

then i didn't get my point across. i was trying to point out that historical analogies are basically useless (or at least the Saddam=Hitler one is). -c

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Jorgen Sigvardsson

The countries on the east side of the iron curtain, yes. The rest of Europe, no. Socialdemocrats (most common left wing parties in Europe) are right wing fascists in the eyes of old school Soviet communists. :) -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine

peterchen

All IMO: You can't put "all -isms except democratic capital-" into one pot. 1. This binary view is dangerous, for it creates an "us vs. them" scenario that is a building block of the most evil -isms. 2. neither a representative democracy, nor capitalism have outstanding features that justify this separation. 3. it is too simplistic to model the issues at hand (although I know a black/white world is easier to live in - and I'd prefer to live in one, too). "State" or "Government", in their nature are social structures that evolve themselves once enough people have to live together. You can't avoid them. Social care for the needy has been - always up to a point - part of every viable social structure, and be it only for brutal point: keep them from revolting. It's strange how quickly the right wing of the U.S., so proud of and eager to point out their supremacy over other countries, despises one of it's elemental keys: a federal government able to unite this many people to a common goal (whatever it is). Stan Shannon wrote: If my country were allowed to function the way it was designed, This argument is a bit weak, for if communism would work as designed, capitalism would be no more. And the fall of the Weimar Republic is a tale not to be forgotten: how a "good"* society can turn "bad". The concept of freedom as "no interference I don't like" is the very heart of a communist Kommune. Unless you go to the woods, someone, somehow, will always interfere with your life. And if it's not someone, it's something - may it be a hungry bear, or a hailstorm devasting your crops. *) I would have written "liberal", but your country has almost succeeded tp turn this word from it's original meaning into a term of disgrace.

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KaRl

Interesting point of view ;) Chris Losinger wrote: this piece lines up many times more points than any of the Saddam==Hitler analogies I've seen However it's a fact SH has always been a great admirer of Adolf, and modeled his political movement as the NSDAP. That's why the fascist far-right supports SH here in France Chris Losinger wrote: but Ashcroft is a fascist, without a doubt Once made the difference between nazism and fascism, could we perhaps consider that US has fascist tendancies in some way, for example by choosing Force prevailing over the Right.

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peterchen

I didn't read it as that either - and I think "useless" is to strong. Just "be careful with". History is a list of examples what can happen in certain situations, and analogies are their hash key, so to speak.

If you go to war, you will destroy a great country a stoned greek chick to the richest man of the world
sighist | Agile Programming | doxygen