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  4. Is Revolution Possible?

Is Revolution Possible?

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  • R Roger Wright

    Once upon a time an army of ragtag, socially undesirable misfits took up arms against an Imperialist power and defeated it, replacing an unresponsive and repressive monarchy with the rule of a Constitution constructed on the precept that all men are equals, and deserve equal treatment and maximum freedom to pursue their dreams uninhibited by government restriction. It worked rather well for a couple hundred years, but it has recently taken a turn for the ugly, and the government born of the idealistic dreams of a nation of castaways has grown increasingly tyranical. It has been clear for a generation that change is overdue, and that the trend of current events is against the common man. The inhabitants of this land have strived to make changes by due process, within the laws prescribed by their Constitution, but their efforts have been constantly defeated by a court system that considers itself to be a power for revisionism and reform, rather than restricting its decisions to the role of interpretation prescribed by law. Things are only growing worse, and lawful action is seemingly less effective each passing day. Is it possible for a popular revolution to succeed in the modern world? This country was formed when a bunch of farmers took up their muskets and challenged the world's greatest superpower. At the time, that ruling army was staffed by men who believed that wearing bright red suits and marching in straight lines down country lanes was a smart way to do battle. The weapons they bore were essentially the same as those owned by the angry farmers who opposed them, but the farmers had the nasty habit of hiding behind trees - not very sporting, but effective. Today the populace is armed to some extent, but with only hunting arms, few if any explosives, no modern intel systems, no armor, communications systems that can be easily disabled with a phone call from the government, and an ID-based economy that makes it childsplay to track the movements and activities of any individual. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that a revolution is overdue and that the sheep that inhabit this land might be stirred to attempt one, is there any possible way that the people could prevail over the government? Ancient man conquered his rivals with the jawbone of an ass; modern man uses the jawbone of a politician.

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    Chris Losinger
    wrote on last edited by
    #9

    Roger Wright wrote: At the time, that ruling army was staffed by men who believed that wearing bright red suits and marching in straight lines down country lanes was a smart way to do battle. The weapons they bore were essentially the same as those owned by the angry farmers who opposed them, but the farmers had the nasty habit of hiding behind trees - not very sporting, but effective. these days we call that "asymmetric warfare", or "terrorism". Roger Wright wrote: is there any possible way that the people could prevail over the government? nope. a few hunting rifles aren't going to matter, if the military is on the govt's side. what would make the difference is if the military was on the people's side. and in that case, we could probably do the job peacefully at the voting booth. -c

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    • R Roger Wright

      Once upon a time an army of ragtag, socially undesirable misfits took up arms against an Imperialist power and defeated it, replacing an unresponsive and repressive monarchy with the rule of a Constitution constructed on the precept that all men are equals, and deserve equal treatment and maximum freedom to pursue their dreams uninhibited by government restriction. It worked rather well for a couple hundred years, but it has recently taken a turn for the ugly, and the government born of the idealistic dreams of a nation of castaways has grown increasingly tyranical. It has been clear for a generation that change is overdue, and that the trend of current events is against the common man. The inhabitants of this land have strived to make changes by due process, within the laws prescribed by their Constitution, but their efforts have been constantly defeated by a court system that considers itself to be a power for revisionism and reform, rather than restricting its decisions to the role of interpretation prescribed by law. Things are only growing worse, and lawful action is seemingly less effective each passing day. Is it possible for a popular revolution to succeed in the modern world? This country was formed when a bunch of farmers took up their muskets and challenged the world's greatest superpower. At the time, that ruling army was staffed by men who believed that wearing bright red suits and marching in straight lines down country lanes was a smart way to do battle. The weapons they bore were essentially the same as those owned by the angry farmers who opposed them, but the farmers had the nasty habit of hiding behind trees - not very sporting, but effective. Today the populace is armed to some extent, but with only hunting arms, few if any explosives, no modern intel systems, no armor, communications systems that can be easily disabled with a phone call from the government, and an ID-based economy that makes it childsplay to track the movements and activities of any individual. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that a revolution is overdue and that the sheep that inhabit this land might be stirred to attempt one, is there any possible way that the people could prevail over the government? Ancient man conquered his rivals with the jawbone of an ass; modern man uses the jawbone of a politician.

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      Stan Shannon
      wrote on last edited by
      #10

      I'm game :) The real problem would be getting a sufficient mass of people united around a common cause. I know many people who have expressed the willingness to take up arms against the government, but they all want to do it for different reasons (Sorry Europe, none of them are Socialist causes). One down side of a diverse media is that it has people worked up over a very large and incongruous (sp?) set of causes. The other problem is that during our Revolution as well as our Civil War, the average joe could walk away from his farm and know that it would still be there four years later and also know that his family could scratch out a living while he was gone. That is certainly no longer true - what is your family going to live on while you are off fighting the good fight? The economic disruption would be far more severe than in 1776 and 1860. "My job is to protect America" George W. Bush.

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      • P peterchen

        revolution is possible, but you need a large group under intense pressure, which "modern" societies are keen to avoid (wonder why :rolleyes: ) Just look at east germany: after-work-revolution. It works.

        If you go to war, you will destroy a great country a stoned greek chick to the richest man of the world
        sighist | Agile Programming | doxygen

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        Dr Herbie
        wrote on last edited by
        #11

        In the countries of the Western world, where some form of democracy exists, there will probably never be another revolution until democracy is removed. Democracy keeps most of the people mostly happy most of the time :-D. For a revolution, most of the people have to be mostly very unhappy most of the time (:() before they are prepared to risk absolutely everything. In evolution, democracy would be called an 'Evoltionarily Stable Strategy' -- once it is established, it is very hard to break, or 'invade' with another strategy. Dr Herbie.

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        • P Paul Watson

          If the revolution can recruit the guys with the modern intel systems, armour, communications systems etc. then yes. Otherwise it would take big business to do it. So Roger, when is your next Revolt America! chapter meeting taking place? ;)

          Paul Watson
          Bluegrass
          Cape Town, South Africa

          Macbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.

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          Anna Jayne Metcalfe
          wrote on last edited by
          #12

          I don't know about Revolt America! but there's already a Revolt_ing_ America! ...it's called MacDonalds. ;P Anna :rose: Homepage | My life in tears

          "Be yourself - not what others think you should be"
          - Marcia Graesch

          Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Add-In for Visual C++

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          • R Roger Wright

            Once upon a time an army of ragtag, socially undesirable misfits took up arms against an Imperialist power and defeated it, replacing an unresponsive and repressive monarchy with the rule of a Constitution constructed on the precept that all men are equals, and deserve equal treatment and maximum freedom to pursue their dreams uninhibited by government restriction. It worked rather well for a couple hundred years, but it has recently taken a turn for the ugly, and the government born of the idealistic dreams of a nation of castaways has grown increasingly tyranical. It has been clear for a generation that change is overdue, and that the trend of current events is against the common man. The inhabitants of this land have strived to make changes by due process, within the laws prescribed by their Constitution, but their efforts have been constantly defeated by a court system that considers itself to be a power for revisionism and reform, rather than restricting its decisions to the role of interpretation prescribed by law. Things are only growing worse, and lawful action is seemingly less effective each passing day. Is it possible for a popular revolution to succeed in the modern world? This country was formed when a bunch of farmers took up their muskets and challenged the world's greatest superpower. At the time, that ruling army was staffed by men who believed that wearing bright red suits and marching in straight lines down country lanes was a smart way to do battle. The weapons they bore were essentially the same as those owned by the angry farmers who opposed them, but the farmers had the nasty habit of hiding behind trees - not very sporting, but effective. Today the populace is armed to some extent, but with only hunting arms, few if any explosives, no modern intel systems, no armor, communications systems that can be easily disabled with a phone call from the government, and an ID-based economy that makes it childsplay to track the movements and activities of any individual. Assuming, for the sake of argument, that a revolution is overdue and that the sheep that inhabit this land might be stirred to attempt one, is there any possible way that the people could prevail over the government? Ancient man conquered his rivals with the jawbone of an ass; modern man uses the jawbone of a politician.

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            brianwelsch
            wrote on last edited by
            #13

            A revolution in terms of invading Capitol Hill, no it won't happen it's ridiculous. The beauty of our current system is that all it takes is for enough people to actually give a shit to do something constructive. We can vote. We have a say. Let's use it. Politicians just want to be reelected. If we make an effort to find out what they are doing in Washington, and call them out on the bad decisions, we'll get better results. We need to be educated. A population that chooses to remain ignorant has no right to complain. BW "We get general information and specific information, but none of the specific information talks about time, place or methods or means..." - Tom Ridge - US Secretary of Homeland Security

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            • C Chris Losinger

              Roger Wright wrote: At the time, that ruling army was staffed by men who believed that wearing bright red suits and marching in straight lines down country lanes was a smart way to do battle. The weapons they bore were essentially the same as those owned by the angry farmers who opposed them, but the farmers had the nasty habit of hiding behind trees - not very sporting, but effective. these days we call that "asymmetric warfare", or "terrorism". Roger Wright wrote: is there any possible way that the people could prevail over the government? nope. a few hunting rifles aren't going to matter, if the military is on the govt's side. what would make the difference is if the military was on the people's side. and in that case, we could probably do the job peacefully at the voting booth. -c

              Image tools: ThumbNailer, Bobber, TIFFAssembler

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              brianwelsch
              wrote on last edited by
              #14

              Chris Losinger wrote: these days we call that "asymmetric warfare", or "terrorism". or maybe Guerilla warfare. :~ BW "We get general information and specific information, but none of the specific information talks about time, place or methods or means..." - Tom Ridge - US Secretary of Homeland Security

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              • J JoeSox

                Roger Wright wrote: is there any possible way that the people could prevail over the government? Non-Violent way: Vote for third party candidates. Personally get involved with your local government, any thing you(people) can do to reform presidential elections. Roger Wright wrote: Is it possible for a popular revolution to succeed in the modern world? Sure, why not. Look at history. I guess we could break out in civil war and the Leaders would be the ones with the most guns and money? Maybe the Mobs running the wars? And the UN watching, or maybe fighting on one side to re-establish "democracy"??:confused::-D http://mars.acnet.wnec.edu/~grempel/courses/wc1/lectures/14romefell.html[^] Later,
                JoeSox
                www.joeswammi.com
                It's not easy facin' up when your whole world is black
                Rolling Stones

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                Roger Wright
                wrote on last edited by
                #15

                Interesting parallels there.:suss: Ancient man conquered his rivals with the jawbone of an ass; modern man uses the jawbone of a politician.

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                • B Brit

                  Roger Wright wrote: Once upon a time an army of ragtag, socially undesirable misfits took up arms against an Imperialist power and defeated it, replacing an unresponsive and repressive monarchy with the rule of a Constitution constructed on the precept that all men are equals, and deserve equal treatment and maximum freedom to pursue their dreams uninhibited by government restriction. It worked rather well for a couple hundred years, but it has recently taken a turn for the ugly, and the government born of the idealistic dreams of a nation of castaways has grown increasingly tyranical. Ahhhh, those days of revolution, when America was young, Blacks were slaves, and the State of California would pay $20 for an Indian scalp. Whoa! Maybe things weren't so good afterall. Try not to enshrine the past too much. It's a falicy that "the good old days" existed. Roger Wright wrote: Is it possible for a popular revolution to succeed in the modern world? It worked in India (but, then, the British homeland was halfway around the world). You shouldn't concentrate too much on the capabilities of modern armies. In a revolution (in one own's country), the military is often loath to kill their own countrymen (but it does happen). Remember: the tank didn't run over the guy in Tienimmen Square (though lots of Chinese did die in Tienimmen Square, and there was no revolution). I think you could equally turn the question a bit and ask this question: "all those people who say that the Iraqi people should be responsible for regime change in Iraq -- is that a reasonable opinion?" Afterall, Saddam has used weapons that the US wouldn't use on its own people, and has killed on a massive scale. Hence, Saddam can exert much more pressure on his people without a revolution since he will kill and torture hundreds of thousands of them to preverve his dictatorial grip on power. ------------------------------------------ "What happened in that Rhode Island club is shocking. To think that over a hundred people would attend a Great White concert." - The Onion

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                  Roger Wright
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #16

                  Brit wrote: "all those people who say that the Iraqi people should be responsible for regime change in Iraq -- is that a reasonable opinion?" I do, indeed, question those people, and my question is exactly that - can an effectively unarmed populace overthrow a government that holds all the superweapons? The situation is actualy better in Iraq than the US, as the military-type weapons are readily available there, and virtually non-existent here. Much noise is made in the press here about all those nasty 'assault weapons' we're allowed to have, but they're all really nothing but hunting arms with big magazines. We're not allowed to have fully auto guns, nor any truly effective weapons. In many parts of the world these dangerous toys a just as illegal, but readily available in the black market - not so here. Brit wrote: It's a falicy that "the good old days" existed. I wasn't referring to any "good old days" as such... It was a very tough life, far worse than any I've known. My point was the equality of firepower and the sense that the British did not take the threat seriously, and persisted in methods that could not be effective against a guerilla force. Ancient man conquered his rivals with the jawbone of an ass; modern man uses the jawbone of a politician.

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                  • B Brad Jennings

                    Sure, I think it is possible. The only way the revolutionaries could win is if many people in the military felt stongly for the cause as well and joined the revolution. As powerful as hunting rifles are, they are no match for a tank. Brad Jennings "if the golden arches shut shop, where else are the VB people going to get work." - Colin Davies

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                    Roger Wright
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #17

                    Brad Jennings wrote: As powerful as hunting rifles are, they are no match for a tank. Nor is a commercial AK-47 any match for a military M-16. Even dynamite is relatively ineffective compared to C-4, and recent legislation has made it extremely difficult to obtain black gunpowder, or even ammonium nitrate fertilizer. A popular uprising would be doomed from the start, without the tacit support of the military, and that would leave the door wide open to a military coup. Such a cure would be worse than the disease. Ancient man conquered his rivals with the jawbone of an ass; modern man uses the jawbone of a politician.

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                    • M Megan Forbes

                      Perhaps the question is not so much whether it's possible, as whether people will be prepared to leave their comfortable way of life to do so. Sad to think we as a race are so mediocre in attitude. :(

                      I may try to delete my CP cookies. But its almost like tossing the keys of the appartment into the river. - Andreas Saurwein

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                      Roger Wright
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #18

                      Mediocre isn't quite the word - some fine people have been led for all the best reasons to surrender their freedom voluntarily. Complacency seems a more apt description. Ancient man conquered his rivals with the jawbone of an ass; modern man uses the jawbone of a politician.

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                      • P Paul Watson

                        Look how far non-whites had to be pushed here in South Africa before they even considered revolting. Repressed by a handful of whites for decades. Look how Saddam treats his own people. No revolts there either. Shocking. I still believe a committed revolution of the common man can succeed. It is just getting them to stand up that is the hard bit.

                        Paul Watson
                        Bluegrass
                        Cape Town, South Africa

                        Macbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.

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                        Roger Wright
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #19

                        Paul Watson wrote: It is just getting them to stand up that is the hard bit. Sheep have trouble balancing on their hind legs, I'm afraid. Ancient man conquered his rivals with the jawbone of an ass; modern man uses the jawbone of a politician.

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                        • B brianwelsch

                          Chris Losinger wrote: these days we call that "asymmetric warfare", or "terrorism". or maybe Guerilla warfare. :~ BW "We get general information and specific information, but none of the specific information talks about time, place or methods or means..." - Tom Ridge - US Secretary of Homeland Security

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                          Chris Losinger
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #20

                          brianwelsch wrote: or maybe Guerilla warfare we only use that word when we have no stake in the outcome. when it's used against us, it's terrorism. when we use it, it's asymmetric warfare. -c (spelling fixed)

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                          • P Paul Watson

                            If the revolution can recruit the guys with the modern intel systems, armour, communications systems etc. then yes. Otherwise it would take big business to do it. So Roger, when is your next Revolt America! chapter meeting taking place? ;)

                            Paul Watson
                            Bluegrass
                            Cape Town, South Africa

                            Macbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.

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                            Roger Wright
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #21

                            Not me! As I implied in my original post, I'm of the opinion that it's already too late. The American public has been effectively disarmed by its government, one tiny step at a time, and because of the disparity in resources between the people and the government, I don't believe such a revolt can be won. We'd need a visionary with more fire and faith than I have to lead such a movement. Ancient man conquered his rivals with the jawbone of an ass; modern man uses the jawbone of a politician.

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                            • R Roger Wright

                              Interesting parallels there.:suss: Ancient man conquered his rivals with the jawbone of an ass; modern man uses the jawbone of a politician.

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                              JoeSox
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #22

                              Roger Wright wrote: Interesting parallels there I thought so too. "This extension of paternalism was accompanied by a tremendous increase in the personnel of the imperial civil service. Each bureau expanded its field and new bureaux were constantly being created. By the time of Antoninus Pius, who ruled from 138 to 161 AD, the Roman bureaucracy was as all-embracing as that of modern times. Naturally, too, as benevolent paternalism and bureaucracy took over, personal freedom tended to disappear." Sounds way too familiar. :(:( Later,
                              JoeSox
                              www.joeswammi.com
                              It's not easy facin' up when your whole world is black
                              Rolling Stones

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                              • C Chris Losinger

                                brianwelsch wrote: or maybe Guerilla warfare we only use that word when we have no stake in the outcome. when it's used against us, it's terrorism. when we use it, it's asymmetric warfare. -c (spelling fixed)

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                                Roger Wright
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #23

                                I like the terminology, Chris!:-D Assymetric warfare - perfectly descriptive. Alas, the voting booth remains the only effective weapon we have at our disposal; if only people would use it! More importantly, much could be done if the voters would use their own minds, rather than relying on CNN for their opinions. Yeah, right - armed rebellion has better odds than that bit of wishful thinking! Ancient man conquered his rivals with the jawbone of an ass; modern man uses the jawbone of a politician.

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                                • S Stan Shannon

                                  I'm game :) The real problem would be getting a sufficient mass of people united around a common cause. I know many people who have expressed the willingness to take up arms against the government, but they all want to do it for different reasons (Sorry Europe, none of them are Socialist causes). One down side of a diverse media is that it has people worked up over a very large and incongruous (sp?) set of causes. The other problem is that during our Revolution as well as our Civil War, the average joe could walk away from his farm and know that it would still be there four years later and also know that his family could scratch out a living while he was gone. That is certainly no longer true - what is your family going to live on while you are off fighting the good fight? The economic disruption would be far more severe than in 1776 and 1860. "My job is to protect America" George W. Bush.

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                                  Roger Wright
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #24

                                  Stan Shannon wrote: One down side of a diverse media is that it has people worked up over a very large and incongruous (sp?) set of causes. Does the phrase "divide and conquer" come to mind? Stan Shannon wrote: The economic disruption would be far more severe than in 1776 and 1860. Good point - I hadn't even thought of that aspect. Miss one tax payment and the government will steal your property and boot your family out into the streets. Two years ago 130+ families here lost their homes to the city. The state government - based on Federal standards - decided that the city must switch from septic systems to sewers, the city built them (badly, and far over budget), then condemned the property of those who couldn't afford the tax imposed on them. Ancient man conquered his rivals with the jawbone of an ass; modern man uses the jawbone of a politician.

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                                  • C Chris Losinger

                                    brianwelsch wrote: or maybe Guerilla warfare we only use that word when we have no stake in the outcome. when it's used against us, it's terrorism. when we use it, it's asymmetric warfare. -c (spelling fixed)

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                                    brianwelsch
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #25

                                    "Exactly in parallel with the distinction between military and civilian targets in war, the extended version would designate as “guerilla warfare” the deliberate use of violence against military and security personnel in order to attain political, ideological and religious goals. Terrorism, on the other hand, would be defined as “the deliberate use of violence against civilians in order to attain political, ideological and religious aims.” So the colonists applied guerilla warfare. At least if you agree on this definition they did. ;) More on trying to define terrorism: http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=393[^] BW "We get general information and specific information, but none of the specific information talks about time, place or methods or means..." - Tom Ridge - US Secretary of Homeland Security

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                                    • B brianwelsch

                                      "Exactly in parallel with the distinction between military and civilian targets in war, the extended version would designate as “guerilla warfare” the deliberate use of violence against military and security personnel in order to attain political, ideological and religious goals. Terrorism, on the other hand, would be defined as “the deliberate use of violence against civilians in order to attain political, ideological and religious aims.” So the colonists applied guerilla warfare. At least if you agree on this definition they did. ;) More on trying to define terrorism: http://www.ict.org.il/articles/articledet.cfm?articleid=393[^] BW "We get general information and specific information, but none of the specific information talks about time, place or methods or means..." - Tom Ridge - US Secretary of Homeland Security

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                                      Chris Losinger
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #26

                                      brianwelsch wrote: So the colonists applied guerilla warfare. At least if you agree on this definition they did. 9/11 changed everything. we have always been at war with iraq. war is peace. freedom's just another word for nothin left to lose. (and, BTW, my 'definitions' in the post above were entirely tongue-in-cheek) -c

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                                      • C Chris Losinger

                                        brianwelsch wrote: So the colonists applied guerilla warfare. At least if you agree on this definition they did. 9/11 changed everything. we have always been at war with iraq. war is peace. freedom's just another word for nothin left to lose. (and, BTW, my 'definitions' in the post above were entirely tongue-in-cheek) -c

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                                        brianwelsch
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #27

                                        I still eat French fries. BW "We get general information and specific information, but none of the specific information talks about time, place or methods or means..." - Tom Ridge - US Secretary of Homeland Security

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                                        • R Roger Wright

                                          Not me! As I implied in my original post, I'm of the opinion that it's already too late. The American public has been effectively disarmed by its government, one tiny step at a time, and because of the disparity in resources between the people and the government, I don't believe such a revolt can be won. We'd need a visionary with more fire and faith than I have to lead such a movement. Ancient man conquered his rivals with the jawbone of an ass; modern man uses the jawbone of a politician.

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                                          Chris Losinger
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #28

                                          Roger Wright wrote: The American public has been effectively disarmed by its government important note here: the Iraqi government doesn't prohibit people from owning guns. in fact, Iraqis have a lot of guns. why didn't they use them to overthrow Saddam? probably because Saddam has bigger guns. -c

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