A discussion On What Constitutes Abuse And What Should Be Done About It
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The thing is, his signature isn't abusive. The topic however is a hot one and people will always think it's abusive if it doesn't automatically support their opinion. Setting different rules for each forum is the right choise. You either have to start having separate sigs for each forum, delete them entirely, or accept that if they're allowed in any one (Soapbox), they should be accepted for all. If his sig was in the Soapbox as a message, it would be a hot topic and marked as spam incorrectly. If his post or signature was actively condemning someone, then I agree it should be removed.
:thumbsup:
cheers Chris Maunder
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Rules #4 of the lounge: No politics (including enviro-politics[^]), no sex, no religion. This is a community for software development. There are plenty of other sites that are far more appropriate for these discussions. Or if you must, use the Back Room[^] - but enter at your own risk. It's very, very simple.
cheers Chris Maunder
Does this mean then that every post that mentions politics, sex, or religion should be flagged and reported in here from now on? Or is it just the politics, sex, and religion that some disagree with that? Cos there is plenty that gets brought up in the lounge, plenty that just gets ignored, plenty that leads to interesting, adult discussions. I do not believe that anyone reported the signature in question for flouting the rules, they did so because they object to the anti Isreal sentiment of it. There was an article in the UK recently about how public figures that stand up against Isreal have an unfortunate habit of turning up dead. I myself had a link to a political petition, albeit a local one, in my sig for quite some time. There was no objection or reporting of that that I am aware of.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.
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Chris Maunder wrote:
aren't interested in a person who just wants to increase my workload without giving back anything to the software developer world
I must remember to stop answering Windows Kernel questions then lest I be too useful. :)
Chris Maunder wrote:
a link to an online petition that is clearly political, religious and divisive
That's one way of looking at it. The other is that its a request to enforce international law. So pretty much the entire issue of extremist Islam, which is killing people right now, all round the world, stems from Israel and me like many other people, jews aswell[^], think that returning to the 67 borders with recognition of Palestine and Israel on both sides, and internationally would go a long way to achieving peace (in fact this is Hamas' new position). So actually I think this petition is fairly important and might help the world achieve peace. If that's offensive to anyone then I am surprised.
Ignore this, it has nothing to do with Israel and its borders.
Your current signature-link (as in this post) is your doing, or someone hacked in?
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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Does this mean then that every post that mentions politics, sex, or religion should be flagged and reported in here from now on? Or is it just the politics, sex, and religion that some disagree with that? Cos there is plenty that gets brought up in the lounge, plenty that just gets ignored, plenty that leads to interesting, adult discussions. I do not believe that anyone reported the signature in question for flouting the rules, they did so because they object to the anti Isreal sentiment of it. There was an article in the UK recently about how public figures that stand up against Isreal have an unfortunate habit of turning up dead. I myself had a link to a political petition, albeit a local one, in my sig for quite some time. There was no objection or reporting of that that I am aware of.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.
Those rules are for the lounge, so you can move politics and others to the soapbox... The problem is that a signature containing politics going with you everywhere...
Skipper: We'll fix it. Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this? Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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How's that for a catchy title? CodeProject is for software developers to discuss software development and their lives as software developers. We all have a broad range of interests, but the focus is on software and we have very deliberately asked the community to keep the discussions vaguely technology related with the emphasis on being respectful and inclusive. Discussions that are controversial or where a more open, direct, glove-off conversation is needed (or wanted) go in the Soapbox. Everyone has the right to free speech. Everyone has the responsibility to respect the site and the community. If you have an axe to grind then take it elsewhere. There are a million sites more suited to political or religious (for example) debates, or at worst start your own blog. That's your right. If you do want to discuss politics or religion (or whatever) then discuss it in the right place, be respectful, and keep those discussions in the forums best suited. That's your responsibility. The specific issue I'd like to address is Munchies_Matt's signature. It's statement and a link to an online petition that is clearly political, religious and divisive. It's there purely for attention, and I'm sure he's wriggling with joy that we're discussing him. That's the only purpose of the sig: to stir up a fight. The reaction has been varied. The signature breaches the rules of the Lounge and can be interpreted to breach the site's Terms of Service and I've asked him to remove the signature. Other reactions have ranged from pointing out that the sig should be changed to wholesale closing of all messages by the user. I, personally, aren't interested in a person who just wants to increase my workload without giving back anything to the software developer world. There are way too many extremely talented, generous and generally wonderful human beings contributing day in and day out who I need to give my time to. However, before I do anything I wanted hear from the community. Society evolves, as do we, so let's hear from you as to how we as a community should approach a situation like this.
cheers Chris Maunder
My half cent: The link is to support a cause. So if someone really cares for animals he could have a link to support PETA - even if that would offend ME (as PETA is aginst scientific experimentation on animals), or some other could have a link to a petition for gay rights in some country and that could offend some extra-conservative user. Now, would you really want to ban anything not related to technical topics only because a limited number of users brought in the "abuse report" war?
Geek code v 3.12 GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- r++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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How's that for a catchy title? CodeProject is for software developers to discuss software development and their lives as software developers. We all have a broad range of interests, but the focus is on software and we have very deliberately asked the community to keep the discussions vaguely technology related with the emphasis on being respectful and inclusive. Discussions that are controversial or where a more open, direct, glove-off conversation is needed (or wanted) go in the Soapbox. Everyone has the right to free speech. Everyone has the responsibility to respect the site and the community. If you have an axe to grind then take it elsewhere. There are a million sites more suited to political or religious (for example) debates, or at worst start your own blog. That's your right. If you do want to discuss politics or religion (or whatever) then discuss it in the right place, be respectful, and keep those discussions in the forums best suited. That's your responsibility. The specific issue I'd like to address is Munchies_Matt's signature. It's statement and a link to an online petition that is clearly political, religious and divisive. It's there purely for attention, and I'm sure he's wriggling with joy that we're discussing him. That's the only purpose of the sig: to stir up a fight. The reaction has been varied. The signature breaches the rules of the Lounge and can be interpreted to breach the site's Terms of Service and I've asked him to remove the signature. Other reactions have ranged from pointing out that the sig should be changed to wholesale closing of all messages by the user. I, personally, aren't interested in a person who just wants to increase my workload without giving back anything to the software developer world. There are way too many extremely talented, generous and generally wonderful human beings contributing day in and day out who I need to give my time to. However, before I do anything I wanted hear from the community. Society evolves, as do we, so let's hear from you as to how we as a community should approach a situation like this.
cheers Chris Maunder
I'm not even sure why this is being discussed so much. In fact, almost all of the discussion is on whether it is offensive or not. That is not the point, as I see it. In fact I see it very black and white. The Lounge rules state no politics and the sig clearly had a political message in it. Case closed. It violates the lounge rules. Now, do I personally care enough to mark it abusive, no. But it is against the rules so if anyone marks it abusive, then they are correct. I say leave it all as is.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Does this mean then that every post that mentions politics, sex, or religion should be flagged and reported in here from now on? Or is it just the politics, sex, and religion that some disagree with that? Cos there is plenty that gets brought up in the lounge, plenty that just gets ignored, plenty that leads to interesting, adult discussions. I do not believe that anyone reported the signature in question for flouting the rules, they did so because they object to the anti Isreal sentiment of it. There was an article in the UK recently about how public figures that stand up against Isreal have an unfortunate habit of turning up dead. I myself had a link to a political petition, albeit a local one, in my sig for quite some time. There was no objection or reporting of that that I am aware of.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.
Excellent point, and it reinforces the point of this whole discussion: what should we do? We have rules and we try and enforce them when we're aware of issues. We can't be everywhere all the tine so lots of things get through, with the community generally picking up on the worst of them. In this particular case it generated quite a bit of email to myself and Sean so we took a look, had a chat with the poster, and then it turned into a debate for the point of having a debate instead of trying to reach mutual understanding.
chriselst wrote:
there is plenty that gets brought up in the lounge, plenty that just gets ignored, plenty that leads to interesting, adult discussions
That's the core, right there. Interesting adult conversations are great. We have multiple forums that cater to multiple different topics. We have C# for C#, VB for VB, and the Soapbox for all the big political, religious ans sexual (sometimes at the same time) debates. The lounge is like the front room. Everyone's polite, everyone should be respecting everyone else, and everyone should have a decent, relaxing time. If they want to start getting into a good, down-and-dirty debate then move to the side and go for it. But don't have it in the doorway.
cheers Chris Maunder
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I'm not even sure why this is being discussed so much. In fact, almost all of the discussion is on whether it is offensive or not. That is not the point, as I see it. In fact I see it very black and white. The Lounge rules state no politics and the sig clearly had a political message in it. Case closed. It violates the lounge rules. Now, do I personally care enough to mark it abusive, no. But it is against the rules so if anyone marks it abusive, then they are correct. I say leave it all as is.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Chris Maunder wrote:
intent is to go against the posting guidelines. It's abusing the site and the community
You are wrong Chris.
Ignore this, it has nothing to do with Israel and its borders.
You might want to expound on that. Just telling someone they are wrong is not an argument and does not move someone from their position.
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Dave Kreskowiak -
Is a sig a discussion? You allow swear words in sigs, but not in posts in the lounge. Clearly the two re different.
Ignore this, it has nothing to do with Israel and its borders.
NO, but you're putting your political message, regardless of how passively you present it, into every single post, even if it is not an appropriate forum for such statements. Oh, and changing your sig to a picture that is CLEARLY meant for Chris is not going to win you any friends here.
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Dave Kreskowiak -
NO, but you're putting your political message, regardless of how passively you present it, into every single post, even if it is not an appropriate forum for such statements. Oh, and changing your sig to a picture that is CLEARLY meant for Chris is not going to win you any friends here.
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Click this: Asking questions is a skill. Seriously, do it.
Dave Kreskowiak -
NO, but you're putting your political message, regardless of how passively you present it, into every single post, even if it is not an appropriate forum for such statements. Oh, and changing your sig to a picture that is CLEARLY meant for Chris is not going to win you any friends here.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject
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Dave KreskowiakI think the picture is meant for the univoter. At least I hope so...
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert Einstein -
http://www.codeproject.com/Members/Soap-Box-1-0[^]
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert Einstein -
I think the picture is meant for the univoter. At least I hope so...
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert EinsteinIn any case, it's inappropriate for a signature, no matter who it's meant for.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject
Click this: Asking questions is a skill. Seriously, do it.
Dave Kreskowiak -
How's that for a catchy title? CodeProject is for software developers to discuss software development and their lives as software developers. We all have a broad range of interests, but the focus is on software and we have very deliberately asked the community to keep the discussions vaguely technology related with the emphasis on being respectful and inclusive. Discussions that are controversial or where a more open, direct, glove-off conversation is needed (or wanted) go in the Soapbox. Everyone has the right to free speech. Everyone has the responsibility to respect the site and the community. If you have an axe to grind then take it elsewhere. There are a million sites more suited to political or religious (for example) debates, or at worst start your own blog. That's your right. If you do want to discuss politics or religion (or whatever) then discuss it in the right place, be respectful, and keep those discussions in the forums best suited. That's your responsibility. The specific issue I'd like to address is Munchies_Matt's signature. It's statement and a link to an online petition that is clearly political, religious and divisive. It's there purely for attention, and I'm sure he's wriggling with joy that we're discussing him. That's the only purpose of the sig: to stir up a fight. The reaction has been varied. The signature breaches the rules of the Lounge and can be interpreted to breach the site's Terms of Service and I've asked him to remove the signature. Other reactions have ranged from pointing out that the sig should be changed to wholesale closing of all messages by the user. I, personally, aren't interested in a person who just wants to increase my workload without giving back anything to the software developer world. There are way too many extremely talented, generous and generally wonderful human beings contributing day in and day out who I need to give my time to. However, before I do anything I wanted hear from the community. Society evolves, as do we, so let's hear from you as to how we as a community should approach a situation like this.
cheers Chris Maunder
It is very hard to define what is _not allowed_. Personally I would define what is allowed: In technical section only technical things are allowed, no matter it is an answer, comment, signature *) or what else. *) Now the question remains: Is a signature very different from the user profile - where one can put "everything"? Either by text (in worst case a "special" user name) or an "special" picture... It becomes a never ending storry.... I'm hoping that users here are that polite simply to accept the rules. If not, abuse reports have to be taken into account. Conclusion: Only neutral things in technical part! Take an example from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry[^] Bruno [sorry for my strange English, I hope you can understand my message]
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How's that for a catchy title? CodeProject is for software developers to discuss software development and their lives as software developers. We all have a broad range of interests, but the focus is on software and we have very deliberately asked the community to keep the discussions vaguely technology related with the emphasis on being respectful and inclusive. Discussions that are controversial or where a more open, direct, glove-off conversation is needed (or wanted) go in the Soapbox. Everyone has the right to free speech. Everyone has the responsibility to respect the site and the community. If you have an axe to grind then take it elsewhere. There are a million sites more suited to political or religious (for example) debates, or at worst start your own blog. That's your right. If you do want to discuss politics or religion (or whatever) then discuss it in the right place, be respectful, and keep those discussions in the forums best suited. That's your responsibility. The specific issue I'd like to address is Munchies_Matt's signature. It's statement and a link to an online petition that is clearly political, religious and divisive. It's there purely for attention, and I'm sure he's wriggling with joy that we're discussing him. That's the only purpose of the sig: to stir up a fight. The reaction has been varied. The signature breaches the rules of the Lounge and can be interpreted to breach the site's Terms of Service and I've asked him to remove the signature. Other reactions have ranged from pointing out that the sig should be changed to wholesale closing of all messages by the user. I, personally, aren't interested in a person who just wants to increase my workload without giving back anything to the software developer world. There are way too many extremely talented, generous and generally wonderful human beings contributing day in and day out who I need to give my time to. However, before I do anything I wanted hear from the community. Society evolves, as do we, so let's hear from you as to how we as a community should approach a situation like this.
cheers Chris Maunder
While I agree that considering the rules, the link is breaking them and as such shouldn't be allowed. However, to say that the Matt is doing so just to bring attention to himself I think is incorrect. This came to a head, in my opinion, because a certain individual (or individuals) is making this personal against Matt because he (or they) perceives Matt as being anti-Semitic and have come to have a personal vendetta against Matt. There have been quite vigorous fights in the backroom considering the Israel/Palestinian issue. And it is clear to me there is the desire to silence Matt at all costs. While the link text is political and so is the petition, I don't think any reasonable person would find it offensive. Even to those who are quite on the opposite side of the issue from Matt but are fair-minded. As such, I think Matt or anyone else should be allowed to link to a petition they feel strongly about.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert Einstein -
Chris Maunder wrote:
I've asked him to remove the signature
What was the response? On this site, your word is law. If you ask someone to remove or change their signature for any reason, the user must comply. If they don't like your reasons, they're free to go elsewhere. If they refuse to cooperate and follow your rules, even after you've had a word with them, then I don't see how they can continue to be a part of the site.
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined." - Homer
Richard Deeming wrote:
On this site, your word is law.
And that is exactly the way to do it. Setting up processes/rules/laws to govern what may and may not be done introduces a never-ending stream of problems, because what is written can be intentionally misread and misrepresented -- and there are always plenty of people who just love misreading and misrepresenting stuff, to give themselves imaginary rights to treat others badly.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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In any case, it's inappropriate for a signature, no matter who it's meant for.
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject
Click this: Asking questions is a skill. Seriously, do it.
Dave KreskowiakI disagree. If swear words are allowed then so should this picture be allowed. Words are just pictures in textual form.
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert Einstein -
How's that for a catchy title? CodeProject is for software developers to discuss software development and their lives as software developers. We all have a broad range of interests, but the focus is on software and we have very deliberately asked the community to keep the discussions vaguely technology related with the emphasis on being respectful and inclusive. Discussions that are controversial or where a more open, direct, glove-off conversation is needed (or wanted) go in the Soapbox. Everyone has the right to free speech. Everyone has the responsibility to respect the site and the community. If you have an axe to grind then take it elsewhere. There are a million sites more suited to political or religious (for example) debates, or at worst start your own blog. That's your right. If you do want to discuss politics or religion (or whatever) then discuss it in the right place, be respectful, and keep those discussions in the forums best suited. That's your responsibility. The specific issue I'd like to address is Munchies_Matt's signature. It's statement and a link to an online petition that is clearly political, religious and divisive. It's there purely for attention, and I'm sure he's wriggling with joy that we're discussing him. That's the only purpose of the sig: to stir up a fight. The reaction has been varied. The signature breaches the rules of the Lounge and can be interpreted to breach the site's Terms of Service and I've asked him to remove the signature. Other reactions have ranged from pointing out that the sig should be changed to wholesale closing of all messages by the user. I, personally, aren't interested in a person who just wants to increase my workload without giving back anything to the software developer world. There are way too many extremely talented, generous and generally wonderful human beings contributing day in and day out who I need to give my time to. However, before I do anything I wanted hear from the community. Society evolves, as do we, so let's hear from you as to how we as a community should approach a situation like this.
cheers Chris Maunder
I've said it before I'll say it again. Ignore it. My observation is that it'll go away. Look, the level of engagement that fluctuates at any given time in any given post is driven by personal interest in the post. To hit that reply rectangle is to make some judgement about the content of the post that is personal. And even if the responder could reply without any feeling about what it was he was typing into the message space, the new addition to the "discussion" (how it goes ... left-to-right indentation not as ergonomically salient as my eye would like it, but hey) makes for great voir dire. I don't use that courtroom term lightly either. And I am not at all glib aout this post though I can see some, at this position in the spagetti line, are. We're developers. Perhaps we're programmers, although that's debateable. What machines do is advance the rights of mankind. But not without us. I would submit that no machine, not even Watson, is smart enough to skim through hateful tirade, diatribe, dogma, and the like and successfully determine that it wasn't any of the just typed in words that describe the dark content which is ultimately the issue here. Watson would flip a coin. Or just void a judgement and move on.
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How's that for a catchy title? CodeProject is for software developers to discuss software development and their lives as software developers. We all have a broad range of interests, but the focus is on software and we have very deliberately asked the community to keep the discussions vaguely technology related with the emphasis on being respectful and inclusive. Discussions that are controversial or where a more open, direct, glove-off conversation is needed (or wanted) go in the Soapbox. Everyone has the right to free speech. Everyone has the responsibility to respect the site and the community. If you have an axe to grind then take it elsewhere. There are a million sites more suited to political or religious (for example) debates, or at worst start your own blog. That's your right. If you do want to discuss politics or religion (or whatever) then discuss it in the right place, be respectful, and keep those discussions in the forums best suited. That's your responsibility. The specific issue I'd like to address is Munchies_Matt's signature. It's statement and a link to an online petition that is clearly political, religious and divisive. It's there purely for attention, and I'm sure he's wriggling with joy that we're discussing him. That's the only purpose of the sig: to stir up a fight. The reaction has been varied. The signature breaches the rules of the Lounge and can be interpreted to breach the site's Terms of Service and I've asked him to remove the signature. Other reactions have ranged from pointing out that the sig should be changed to wholesale closing of all messages by the user. I, personally, aren't interested in a person who just wants to increase my workload without giving back anything to the software developer world. There are way too many extremely talented, generous and generally wonderful human beings contributing day in and day out who I need to give my time to. However, before I do anything I wanted hear from the community. Society evolves, as do we, so let's hear from you as to how we as a community should approach a situation like this.
cheers Chris Maunder
Chris Maunder wrote:
The signature breaches the rules of the Lounge
Dunno. If sigs are to be treated as content, then quite a number of them breach the rules of the Lounge. That will require policing by official moderators, because the only other alternative is to allow the voting system to be abused as it was in this case, and allow the content of messages to be deleted because a few members disagree with the content of a sig. The intent of FB's sig was to express his opinion and rattle cages, sure, but that's who he is and what he does; if we can't accept diversity in a group with 11M members, then we're pretty well screwed. It was just a sig, however, not a discussion, and it was not he who used the CP abuse/spam mechanism to "black-mark" people who disagree with his opinions. That is what it appears other members did to him -- the abuse votes were not entered because he broke CP rules, they were entered because the "voters" disagreed with his politics. So the "abuse" votes effectively created a discussion where previously there was only an opinion. People who would escalate a situation in such a way are equally as culpable as he who put his opinion where they would see it. If you want to construct processes and rules to handle that kind of thing (and the escalation of abuses of privilege that always follow, when people get away with one small one), be my guest, but it will probably result in you spending the larger proportion of your time debating petty points brought up by both sides in the situation. I would suggest that you simply rule, as the boss of the site, what the outcome(s) of this one particular situation must be. E.g. if it were up to me, I would rule: 1. That F_B make an effort to try not to be quite so persistently annoying, i.e. if other members make it clear to him that they find the subject of any of his content- or non-content text to be inappropriate, then he take it that he has already made his point well enough, and desist. 2. That no mechanism that is part of the CP infrastructure be used as an underhand way of abusing other members, as they were in this case. It's up to you what to rule, though. But make sure you think through point 2 well. I've seen quite literally dozens of message boards and newsgroups go down the tubes because "a happy few" decided that they had the right to run roughshod over other members -- whereas a members or two being a pain in the
