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  4. Friendly Fire always seems to be American

Friendly Fire always seems to be American

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  • P Paul Belikian

    Sean, Maybe it's because most of the 300,000 troops are American? :wtf:

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    Sean Reilly
    wrote on last edited by
    #14

    Maybe it is - maybe it is merely a linear relationship between the number of troops/weapons systems you have and the deaths via "friendly fire" that arise.

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    • P Paul Belikian

      Sean, Maybe it's because most of the 300,000 troops are American? :wtf:

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      KaRl
      wrote on last edited by
      #15

      Paul Belikian wrote: Maybe it's because most of the 300,000 troops are American? Intersting point. How many Americans are in Iraq and how many of them are fighting troops "on the field" (ie not services, intendance, HQ..) ? US Army is known to have a lot of services to follow the battle core. During WW2, Marshall hoped to make 212 divisions with 8 millions men, but finally could only make 90 (+ the armoured divisions? can't remember), because of the inflation of the services. So I wonder how many troops the US really use. Even 300 000 men seem pretty a pretty low number to take and control such a big country.

      Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

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      • S Sean Reilly

        Well, this is partly what I'm asking. If you want to include operator misuse as "friendly fire" then I'll concede the point (like the US pilot who crashed earlier), but I was referring to the term as the military use it - actively targeting and killing allied troops through lethal ordinance.

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        Chris Austin
        wrote on last edited by
        #16

        Well, as I recall there have been 3 incidents in this war so far. 2 involved US forces firing on friendly targets and 1 incident involving British forces firing on friendly target. Sounds like the sample is tooooo small to make any preponderance of a greater rate of incidence. My take is still the same, everything over there must be happening at mind-numbing speeds and these people are doing all they can to survive. If you look at the incident of the Tornado being shot down, then it is not a users fault it was due to an IFF failure. Amazingly there were dozens of other planes in the area but the Tornado wa the only aircraft targeted. Hey don't worry, I can handle it. I took something. I can see things no one else can see. Why are you dressed like that? - Jack Burton

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        • L Lost User

          Sean Reilly wrote: illuminate the fact that the vast majority of "friendly fire" incidents are caused by American troops. Ummm... because much of the rest of the world is busy sitting on their thumbs?? Mike Mullikin :beer:

          "I'm not calling you a liar but....I can't think of a way to finish that sentence." - Bart Simpson

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          Doug Goulden
          wrote on last edited by
          #17

          You tell'im :laugh::laugh::laugh: Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

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          • C Chris Austin

            Sean Reilly wrote: I'm sure there is the odd incident where the side doing the firing isn't American, but I haven't heard of any. Actualy I just heard on the radio that 2 British tanks had fired on one another. Sean Reilly wrote: Just goes to show - there's nothing more dangerous than a dumb user. Now you are just trying to start a flame war :) Weren't the two Sea King helicopters that collied being flow by british pilots and part of the Royal navy? Sounds like you are picking and choosing the media announcements that you are remembering. My take is that it is a lack of coordination due to the sheer speed at which they are trying to conduct this operation. Hey don't worry, I can handle it. I took something. I can see things no one else can see. Why are you dressed like that? - Jack Burton

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            Richard Stringer
            wrote on last edited by
            #18

            Chris Austin wrote: My take is that it is a lack of coordination due to the sheer speed at which they are trying to conduct this operation. And the fact that they were wearing NVG which ruins depth perception and also createws tunnel vision. The guy , Sean, is an idiot anyway so don't cloud is silly little head with any facts. He probably is the type who runs from poodles or anyone over 5' tall. But he is a legend in his own mind. Richard In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. Orson Welles

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            • S Sean Reilly

              I'm sure there is the odd incident where the side doing the firing isn't American, but I haven't heard of any. Is this trend due to the sheer prevalence of US forces and arms or due to a wider degree of incompetance? Even rated on a proportional basis, the Americans do seem to screw up a lot. Just goes to show - there's nothing more dangerous than a dumb user.

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              David Wulff
              wrote on last edited by
              #19

              I expect it is proportional to the size of the force, and the fact that most of the blue on blue incidents happen with precision technology guide ordinance (is it Tomahawks that have a five percent error rate? - sounds like it could be with all the stray ones falling left right and center). It's a trade off between putting soldiers in the first line of attack positions of using dumb machines, and whilst killing your own side is a major problem it probably saves more lives overall. That's not getting into the value of the lives though, and I would imagine (as chilling as it sounds) that a trained and experienced pilot is worth far more than a newly recruited infantryman, exlcuding the cost of his equipment. Overall though it probably doesn't make that much difference - war, as they say, is hell.

              David Wulff

              "Somebody get this freakin' duck away from me!" - Strong Bad [^]

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              • S Sean Reilly

                I'm sure there is the odd incident where the side doing the firing isn't American, but I haven't heard of any. Is this trend due to the sheer prevalence of US forces and arms or due to a wider degree of incompetance? Even rated on a proportional basis, the Americans do seem to screw up a lot. Just goes to show - there's nothing more dangerous than a dumb user.

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                Sean Reilly
                wrote on last edited by
                #20

                BBC confirming that a British tank shell "...either missed its intended target or rebounded off it" and blew the turret of another British tank. So indeed, there is an incident not caused by American troops. Of course, this does nothing to asuage the earlier fact that the proportion of these incidents is heavily in "favour" of the Americans - but who cares about facts, right?

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                • D David Wulff

                  I expect it is proportional to the size of the force, and the fact that most of the blue on blue incidents happen with precision technology guide ordinance (is it Tomahawks that have a five percent error rate? - sounds like it could be with all the stray ones falling left right and center). It's a trade off between putting soldiers in the first line of attack positions of using dumb machines, and whilst killing your own side is a major problem it probably saves more lives overall. That's not getting into the value of the lives though, and I would imagine (as chilling as it sounds) that a trained and experienced pilot is worth far more than a newly recruited infantryman, exlcuding the cost of his equipment. Overall though it probably doesn't make that much difference - war, as they say, is hell.

                  David Wulff

                  "Somebody get this freakin' duck away from me!" - Strong Bad [^]

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                  Chris Austin
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #21

                  Hey David, though I'd tell you that your Sincerity bar disappears when I scroll it off screen and then scroll back. Hey don't worry, I can handle it. I took something. I can see things no one else can see. Why are you dressed like that? - Jack Burton

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                  • S Sean Reilly

                    Jeremy Falcon wrote: Know what ya get when you break down the word assume? Ass-u-me? An ass out of u and me. Jeremy Falcon wrote: Yeah, there's that shining example of your maturity again. Pot calling kettle? In the last few days alone, as reported on CNNs web site and tirelessly on the television news, a British Tornado GR4 was shot down by a Patriot missile. An American F-16 pilot on Monday was forced to engage a battery of Patriot missiles after they locked onto his plane as a hostile target. A busload of Syrians (you probably care little for them) was blown to pieces by American planes. Two cruise missiles landed in Turkey - albeit without hurting anyone. Do you wish me to include other incidents - the canadians in Afghanistan, the myriad of allies in the Gulf War 1? The point is, that the majority of these incidents seem to stem from the US side. Now, clearly you are an apologist for anything that comes out of the White House - and that's fine - but to take umbrage over immutable facts simply because they seem, in your overly paranoid mind, to "blame" or "accuse" America is myopic and nesceient. From CNN:"• A U.S. F-16 fighter jet early Monday mistakenly fired on a U.S. Patriot missile battery about 30 miles south of Najaf, Iraq, U.S. Combined Forces Air Component Command said. There were no coalition casualties in the strike. It was the second friendly fire incident of the war. Two British pilots were killed Sunday when a Patriot missile shot down their Tornado GR4 as it returned from a mission over Iraq." http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/25/sprj.irq.war.main/index.html

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                    Jeremy Falcon
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #22

                    Sean Reilly wrote: Pot calling kettle? Nope. It's a known saying in the US meaning that both parties in a bitchfest are nothing more than a couple of asses. Sean Reilly wrote: An American F-16 pilot on Monday was forced to engage a battery of Patriot missiles after they locked onto his plane as a hostile target. This is just a repeat of the same info below. Sean Reilly wrote: A busload of Syrians (you probably care little for them) was blown to pieces by American planes. No, that's tragic. But, accidents do to happen in war. I don't like hearing this as much as I don't like hearing about US soldiers being killed. What makes the matter worse is when everyone and their mother are just waiting to bash the US. And the media hype doesn't help because, as been stated before, everyone wants to know what the US is doing, not the other way around. So, US screw-ups are reported way much more. And such a blind assumption (again) on your part. Tisk tisk! Sean Reilly wrote: It was the second friendly fire incident of the war. Enough said. Jeremy Falcon

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                    • R Richard Stringer

                      Chris Austin wrote: My take is that it is a lack of coordination due to the sheer speed at which they are trying to conduct this operation. And the fact that they were wearing NVG which ruins depth perception and also createws tunnel vision. The guy , Sean, is an idiot anyway so don't cloud is silly little head with any facts. He probably is the type who runs from poodles or anyone over 5' tall. But he is a legend in his own mind. Richard In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. Orson Welles

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                      Sean Reilly
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #23

                      Richard Stringer wrote: The guy , Sean, is an idiot anyway so don't cloud is silly little head with any facts. He probably is the type who runs from poodles or anyone over 5' tall. But he is a legend in his own mind. Marvelous wit, not to mention linguistic talent, you display there. Why would this be? Because someone dares to voice an opinion you dislike? I suppose you'll now come and invade my home and "americanise" me.

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                      • S Sean Reilly

                        Actually, Einstein, it has been widely and consistently reported in the press - including the American press. This is the trouble with you people - you just cannot take criticism. You refuse to accept that you are at fault over anything. The facts - as clearly ststed in the press and by US military spokespeople - illuminate the fact that the vast majority of "friendly fire" incidents are caused by American troops.

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                        Jason Henderson
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #24

                        Sean Reilly wrote: This is the trouble with you peopl You people? Now there's a dangerous generalization. :mad: Critisim is one thing, but a blatant disregard of the facts or ignorance of the one critisizing should not be accepted. Sean Reilly wrote: the vast majority of "friendly fire" incidents are caused by American troops. Actually, Einstein, the vast majority of troops and firepower in Iraq are American therefore its only logical that they would have more friendly fire incidents. Now, instead of calling all Americans sloppy or to dumb to use their own equipment, maybe you should think about it a little.

                        Jason Henderson
                        "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

                        articles profile

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                        • S Sean Reilly

                          BBC confirming that a British tank shell "...either missed its intended target or rebounded off it" and blew the turret of another British tank. So indeed, there is an incident not caused by American troops. Of course, this does nothing to asuage the earlier fact that the proportion of these incidents is heavily in "favour" of the Americans - but who cares about facts, right?

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                          Jeremy Falcon
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #25

                          Sean Reilly wrote: but who cares about facts, right? Then you should try reading the rest of this thread. :) Jeremy Falcon

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                          • S Sean Reilly

                            Jeremy Falcon wrote: Know what ya get when you break down the word assume? Ass-u-me? An ass out of u and me. Jeremy Falcon wrote: Yeah, there's that shining example of your maturity again. Pot calling kettle? In the last few days alone, as reported on CNNs web site and tirelessly on the television news, a British Tornado GR4 was shot down by a Patriot missile. An American F-16 pilot on Monday was forced to engage a battery of Patriot missiles after they locked onto his plane as a hostile target. A busload of Syrians (you probably care little for them) was blown to pieces by American planes. Two cruise missiles landed in Turkey - albeit without hurting anyone. Do you wish me to include other incidents - the canadians in Afghanistan, the myriad of allies in the Gulf War 1? The point is, that the majority of these incidents seem to stem from the US side. Now, clearly you are an apologist for anything that comes out of the White House - and that's fine - but to take umbrage over immutable facts simply because they seem, in your overly paranoid mind, to "blame" or "accuse" America is myopic and nesceient. From CNN:"• A U.S. F-16 fighter jet early Monday mistakenly fired on a U.S. Patriot missile battery about 30 miles south of Najaf, Iraq, U.S. Combined Forces Air Component Command said. There were no coalition casualties in the strike. It was the second friendly fire incident of the war. Two British pilots were killed Sunday when a Patriot missile shot down their Tornado GR4 as it returned from a mission over Iraq." http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/25/sprj.irq.war.main/index.html

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                            Jason Henderson
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #26

                            Sean Reilly wrote: Patriot missile Nothing is perfect. Sean Reilly wrote: A busload of Syrians (you probably care little for them) was blown to pieces by American planes. Wrong place at the wrong time and not friendlies per se. Sean Reilly wrote: Two cruise missiles landed in Turkey Nothing is perfect. If the British were the main combatants, or Canadians or French or German, they would be the ones with the majority of friendly-fire incidents. On the other hand, we wouldn't hear about Iraqi ff incidents now would we?

                            Jason Henderson
                            "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

                            articles profile

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                            • S Sean Reilly

                              Richard Stringer wrote: The guy , Sean, is an idiot anyway so don't cloud is silly little head with any facts. He probably is the type who runs from poodles or anyone over 5' tall. But he is a legend in his own mind. Marvelous wit, not to mention linguistic talent, you display there. Why would this be? Because someone dares to voice an opinion you dislike? I suppose you'll now come and invade my home and "americanise" me.

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                              Doug Goulden
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #27

                              Is that like cunninglinguistic?:rolleyes: Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

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                              • J Jeremy Falcon

                                Sean Reilly wrote: Pot calling kettle? Nope. It's a known saying in the US meaning that both parties in a bitchfest are nothing more than a couple of asses. Sean Reilly wrote: An American F-16 pilot on Monday was forced to engage a battery of Patriot missiles after they locked onto his plane as a hostile target. This is just a repeat of the same info below. Sean Reilly wrote: A busload of Syrians (you probably care little for them) was blown to pieces by American planes. No, that's tragic. But, accidents do to happen in war. I don't like hearing this as much as I don't like hearing about US soldiers being killed. What makes the matter worse is when everyone and their mother are just waiting to bash the US. And the media hype doesn't help because, as been stated before, everyone wants to know what the US is doing, not the other way around. So, US screw-ups are reported way much more. And such a blind assumption (again) on your part. Tisk tisk! Sean Reilly wrote: It was the second friendly fire incident of the war. Enough said. Jeremy Falcon

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                                Sean Reilly
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #28

                                Jeremy Falcon wrote: This is just a repeat of the same info below. Indeed. But you also asked for a link. Jeremy Falcon wrote: What makes the matter worse is when everyone and their mother are just waiting to bash the US. In your own paranoid mind. What was it you said .. Jeremy Falcon wrote: And such a blind assumption (again) on your part. Tisk tisk! And even if they do "bash" the Almighty US of A ... what of it? Is there some rule of law that prohibits people from voicing disquiet over American actions or is it just written somewhere that whatever the US does has a mandate from Heaven. Is the US Heaven? Does God live in the White House? Inquiring minds want to know ...

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                                • K KaRl

                                  About WW2, there are plenty of stories of british planes attacked by US fighters (for example the squadron leader Pat Thornton-Browne of the 609 West Riding shot down by P47s which also shot 2 others typhoons in the attack) , or in Closterman's book "the Big Show" the attack of his flight by P51s and how one of his wingman even fired back) Jeremy Falcon wrote: Because nobody cares unless it's the US in the frying pan. Perhaps.

                                  Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

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                                  Jason Henderson
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #29

                                  More anti-US crap out of Karl the commie. X|

                                  Jason Henderson
                                  "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." - Gandhi

                                  articles profile

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                                  • D Doug Goulden

                                    Is that like cunninglinguistic?:rolleyes: Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

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                                    Sean Reilly
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #30

                                    You bugger! I now have coffee all over my monitor ...

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                                    • S Sean Reilly

                                      I'm sure there is the odd incident where the side doing the firing isn't American, but I haven't heard of any. Is this trend due to the sheer prevalence of US forces and arms or due to a wider degree of incompetance? Even rated on a proportional basis, the Americans do seem to screw up a lot. Just goes to show - there's nothing more dangerous than a dumb user.

                                      D Offline
                                      D Offline
                                      Doug Goulden
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #31

                                      For all you apologists, and people who wanna criticize the US: Earlier Colonel Vernon told the BBC that Iraqi forces were using human shields to defend Basra. "Seventh Armoured Brigade have made reports of gunmen, irregular forces, coming forward with civilians in front of them - we assume being coerced," he said. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2886805.stm[^] Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

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                                      • K KaRl

                                        Paul Belikian wrote: Maybe it's because most of the 300,000 troops are American? Intersting point. How many Americans are in Iraq and how many of them are fighting troops "on the field" (ie not services, intendance, HQ..) ? US Army is known to have a lot of services to follow the battle core. During WW2, Marshall hoped to make 212 divisions with 8 millions men, but finally could only make 90 (+ the armoured divisions? can't remember), because of the inflation of the services. So I wonder how many troops the US really use. Even 300 000 men seem pretty a pretty low number to take and control such a big country.

                                        Angels banished from heaven have no choice but to become demons Cowboy Bebop

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                                        Chris Austin
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #32

                                        That is intersting KaЯl. I would venture to guess that the lower number may be a result of the increased use of air power to "shape" targets. But, it does seem like a small force to me. Hey don't worry, I can handle it. I took something. I can see things no one else can see. Why are you dressed like that? - Jack Burton

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                                        • S Sean Reilly

                                          You bugger! I now have coffee all over my monitor ...

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                                          Doug Goulden
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #33

                                          Now why would that be? :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh: Uptight Ex-Military Republican married to a Commie Lib - How weird is that?

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