The story of Saddam

Lost User

Link? Mike Mullikin :beer:

"I'm not calling you a liar but....I can't think of a way to finish that sentence." - Bart Simpson

Chris Losinger

i've been having the same feelings. but, remember: up until fairly recently, the case against Saddam also included: Iraq+WMDs. now it turns out all of the intel that GWB had on Saddam's nuclear plans were fake, out of date, or faulty. and al-Queda. the links are still speculation. so, GWB and Company was selling a war where at least two major points were anything but credible. the humanitarian issue has always been there, but only recently are we seeing really how bad it is. -c

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Jorgen Sigvardsson

I wish I could link a TV program, but I can't. ;) The program was called "Behind the Headlines, The Real Saddam". Maybe it's being shown in the US as well (I would imagine so). -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine

Jorgen Sigvardsson

Chris Losinger wrote: Iraq+WMDs Chris Losinger wrote: al-Queda Somehow, as weird as it may sound, these issues seem less important in contrast to what he's doing in his own country. They don't make him any more evil, only more powerful. Either way, I believe he should be put away. Chris Losinger wrote: so, GWB and Company was selling a war where at least two major points were anything but credible. I'm more inclined to buy a humanitarian argument than the alleged WMD and alQ links. Those are/were merely intelligence rumors. What they're doing to the Iraqi people is a very very sad fact. -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine

Chris Losinger

Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: these issues seem less important in contrast to what he's doing in his own country i agree. Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: Those are/were merely intelligence rumors. What they're doing to the Iraqi people is a very very sad fact yes it is, and i'm not trying to minimize that. but i don't think we heard just how bad it is there, until very recently. now that we have reporters all over Iraq, and at least some people are able to speak freely, we're getting a lot more info. -c

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Jorgen Sigvardsson

Chris Losinger wrote: now that we have reporters all over Iraq, and at least some people are able to speak freely, we're getting a lot more info. I just wish al-jazeera and the other arabic reporters would show the rest of the arab world what Saddam is really like. I doubt that any arab with self respect would celebrate him like a hero if they only knew what he's like. All the arab leaders should turn their backs on Saddam because of the simple fact that if Saddam had his way, all those leaders would be kissing his feet right now, just before they're taken to the torture and execution chambers. -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine

Chris Losinger

FYI, al-jazeera has an english website now. but it's getting crushed by the traffic, so it's almost never up. :) -c

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Jorgen Sigvardsson

It would be interesting to see if they angle the english news differently than the arabic version. Any arabic speaking fellow here who can do the comparison? -- Shine, enlighten me - shine Shine, awaken me - shine Shine for all your suffering - shine

Michael A Barnhart

Chris Losinger wrote: but, remember: up until fairly recently, the case against Saddam also included: Agreed. The case against Saddam was clear enough with out these items so why add them and discredit your case. It still bothers me. Yes I support what the US is doing. It could have been with so much more support. ""

Ed Gadziemski

He's right up there with Stalin and Hitler. No wait, they were nice guys compared to Saddam Time for a little perspective. Hitler had 11 million people put to death in concentration camps. That's more than half the entire population of Iraq. The war against Hitler caused the deaths of more than 50 million people (combatants and non-combatants). Stalin, it is estimated, was responsible for the deaths of 20 million Russians, equivalent to the entire population of Iraq. Saddam is an amateur. Those willing to trade liberty for security deserve neither - Benjamin Franklin

Nitron

Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I fear that way too many innocent people will die during this war yet consider the number of people who died in wars (or genocide/terrorist acts) throughout history, and double or triple digit casualties don't sound too bad. - Nitron

"Those that say a task is impossible shouldn't interrupt the ones who are doing it." - Chinese Proverb

Lost User

Jörgen Sigvardsson wrote: I wish I could link a TV program, but I can't. Damn! What kind of computer wizard are you?? ;P ;P Mike Mullikin :beer:

"I'm not calling you a liar but....I can't think of a way to finish that sentence." - Bart Simpson

Michael A Barnhart

Ed Gadziemski wrote: Saddam is an amateur. Well, The other 2 had more to work with. As far as I am concerned all of these plus others do not rate the be called human even with all of our faults. ""

Richard Stringer

Ed Gadziemski wrote: Saddam is an amateur. OK - I'll buy that. But lest stop him BEFORE he turns pro and it costs 10 million or so lives. Richard In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. Orson Welles

Stan Shannon

With all due respect, Chris, you overstate the claims Bush ever tried to make about nuclear weapons or the al-Queda. There has been amply evidence that Saddam has made every effort to acquire or build nuclear weapons. Some of the intel that the Bush adminstration put out may have not been precisely accurate, but it still seems a rather minor fault in trying to build a solid case agaisnt Saddam. The same goes for possible al-Queda links. No proof exists, but there is evidence that the two, Hussein and bin Ladin, are willing to tolerate the other's existence long enough to achieve a common goal. I don't think the Bush administration ever overstated the possible linkage between the two. We are at war with Iraq because Saddam could, at any time, decide to lash out with terrorist attacks against targets of his choosing. He certainly has the will and the means to do so. It is simply the kind of situation that the U.S. is no longer willing to tolerate. Hopefully, once we win this conflict, we will find out the truth. "My job is to protect America" George W. Bush.

Brakanjan

It's true, Saddam is a madman who loves war and hates his own family if they were to oppose him. But is it really necessary for a war? I live in South Africa, next to Zimbabwe. There Rob Mugabe is starving 2 million people because he chased 3000 white (and a few black ones) farmers away from their farms. These farms are now accupied but 16 year old war veterans (the war was 20+ years ago) that knows sh-- about farming. Mugabe is one of the richest people on earht, owning almost all the estate in Zim. Resently he called a national lottery, which he (what luck) won. No one in Zim is allowed to show any protest (a world famous Zim cricketer is wanted for treason - payable with death), no opposition is allowed etc etc. The list goes on. So why no war in Zim and remove this dictator? 1) No oil 2) No oil 3) No oil or is there other reasons? WMD? Mmm. So just because there is no "threat" of WMD, 2 million people will starve at the hands of a dictator. So: Remove one dictator or remove all of them, not the ones next to the oil.

Lost User

Personally, I think Mugabe should be next, but it should really be African nations that deal with it - unless there no consensus at all in Africa? If this is the case, then the UK/US should topple Mugabe as soon as possible. People are starving and people are being brutalised - and I am of the belief that thre free world has an obligation to help (and yes, that includes helping countries that have "No oil").

When I am king, you will be first against the wall.

Paul Watson

Letting the US/UK topple Mugabe will simply alienate every single African country even more than they already are from the west. It will give fodder to Mugabes claims, it will push the fence sitters to his side and simply destroy the slight gains in African diplomacy that have been made over the last few years. The US especially totally underestimates how much it is hated outside of it's borders. The US may have the intentions of the Dali Lama but in no way can Africa or the ME be convinced of the States' benevolence. Mugabe must be toppled by his own people and by other African states. Nobody else.

Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa

Macbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.

Paul Watson

I still don't think oil is the be all and end all of the Bush campaing for Iraq. From what we have been reading he has a much bigger plan to use Iraq and Afghanistan as a base for converting the ME to being States Friendly. Also remember Sadam has tried to assasinate Bush snr. Mugabe can't even get rid of the MDC party, never mind plan a hit on Bush jnr. Sadam has also invaded Kuwait and done a lot of things Mugabe can only dream of doing. Very different situations. Mugabe still is a tyrant and needs to go, but Bush is not picking on Sadam and not Mugabe because of oil. It is because Mugabe is only big in his dreams, in the reality of the world he is a tinpot dictator in some offbeat African country that has no affect on the rest of the world. Thabo and his pals need to get rid of Mugabe, musn't think or want Bush to.

Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa

Macbeth muttered: I am in blood / Stepped in so far, that should I wade no more, / Returning were as tedious as go o'er DavidW wrote: You are totally mad. Nice.

Lost User

Paul Watson wrote: Mugabe must be toppled by his own people and by other African states. Nobody else. And this is likely is it Paul? There seem to people outside of Zimbabwe that think Mugabe is a hero for seizing the white farms! How likely is it that African nations will get together and do something about him? I don't think it is likely at all. And as for the civilian population uprising ... well, that would be ideal but then I have heard people say the same about the people of Iraq - but it is bloody difficult to achieve when you have the barrel of a gun pointing at you. The people of Zimbabwe need help, and if Africa is unwilling to provide the necessary assistance, then someone else needs to. It is criminal that the people of Zimbabwe have been left to rot by the rest of the world. I agree that Africa SHOULD sort out it's own problems, but how long should others stand by waiting? Zimbabwe used to be the jewel in Africas crown until that brutal pig started to screw the country into the ground. The fact that the rest of the world has stood by, stroked their chins and done sweet FA is shameful.

When I am king, you will be first against the wall.