What if ...

Lost User

... a government is democratically elected in Iraq after the war, and it decides not to give any contracts to US or Britain. Is it an option that they have? I have been hearing talks about long term contracts being discussed now. What rights will the post-war Iraqi government have in this regard ... or are they already sold out? My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers

Chris Losinger

the US has already lined up most of the companies for the rebuilding of Iraq. not surprisingly, they're all US companies and also not surprisingly, many of them have some ugly (if not strictly illegal) relationships with current members of the government. the US is going to be deeply involved in Iraq. -c

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MS le Roux

I certainly hope they'll be more involved with building Iraq than they are with Afghanistan.

Lost User

The way the US administration and many other governments talk, they seem to have already decided how Iraq should be re-built. If that is the case, what does democracy mean there? Deciding what? It seems to me that the western companies will hold oil contracts which will be sold; and most of the money will be paid to Western companies for rebuilding work. Would they have a choice, if someone who is deeply socialistic is elected, and decides to nationalize oil, and award contracts to anyone they choose, say Japanese or Chinese companies. My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers

Chris Losinger

there's a lot more money to be made rebuilding Iraq than there is to be made rebuilding Afghanistan. let's hope that the money will be enough of an incentive to keep GWB's attention focused there, even after he starts his next invasion. -c

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Lost User

Afghanistan has no oil to pay for re-building. Hence, there is not much interest in re-building. In Iraq's case, after say 5 years, Iraq will be capable of paying for all re-building because of the oil revenues. My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers

MS le Roux

That's rather sad. AFAIK the US helped Japan and Germany to rebuild after WWII, which is part of the reason they're so prosperous today. If they helped Afghanistan to rebuild, perhaps they would become prosperous, instead of yet again being a breeding ground for terrorists and oppressors. Isn't that worth the effort?

Lost User

It is, if people hold the right perspective. But, these days, priorities are too short term. People want results overnight. At the end of WWII, the world was much more idealistic; and probably wanted to prevent the loss of death and tragedy of that scale again. But, after 50+ years, WWII is used more as a debate tool to drive home points of view. A generation later, it will not mean much more than a historical event. Oppression, IMO, is a function of the state of social development. People in Afghanistan still hold the same core values about the role of women in society, and other social issues that have a significant impact on progress. It takes courageous people to go against traditions and prevelant social norms; and I hope Afghanistan produces many; and also hope that they are heeded. (...and it takes real education, and not just literacy for that to happen). No one can expect the illiterate population of Afghanistan to make a rapid remarkable progress like a Japan or Germany did (both were industrial and scientific countries, even before WWII. If Hitler did not do the things that he did, and Germany had a peaceful atmosphere, they would probably have been a mightier industrial power than US today). My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers

brianwelsch

The following post has some links about the rebuilding happening in Afghanistan. The US is not ignoring the whole thing like some seem to think. http://www.codeproject.com/script/comments/forums.asp?msg=457299&forumid=2605&mode=all&userid=37059#xx457299xx[^] BW "We get general information and specific information, but none of the specific information talks about time, place or methods or means..." - Tom Ridge - US Secretary of Homeland Security

Ed Gadziemski

What if a democratically elected Iraqi government decides "never again" and decides to acquire a formidable nuclear arsenal to prevent future invasions by the US and Britain? Those willing to trade liberty for security deserve neither - Benjamin Franklin

Pavel Klocek

Thomas George wrote: At the end of WWII, the world was much more idealistic; and probably wanted to prevent the loss of death and tragedy of that scale again. Maybe, but also there was the was the strugle between USSR and USA, which were dividing Europe. Pavel Sonork 100.15206

Chris Losinger

"Legislators in the fundamentalist-ruled Northwest Frontier province vote next month on implementing sharia." http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0326/p07s02-wosc.html[^] they seem to really like their oppressive fundamentalist Islamist governments. i suppose that's the danger of democracy: people get what they want. -c

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Lost User

No WMD is the basic condition that UN is laying out. But, what about economic interests? My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers

brianwelsch

Chris Losinger wrote: : people get what they want Or at least what they vote for. ;) BW "We get general information and specific information, but none of the specific information talks about time, place or methods or means..." - Tom Ridge - US Secretary of Homeland Security

Lost User

I never said that they are ignored. I was saying that it will be more difficult, and not as lucrative as Iraq. My article on a reference-counted smart pointer that supports polymorphic objects and raw pointers

Ed Gadziemski

that UN is laying out What say does the UN have? They didn't prevent the current war. If you meant the US, then what say will they have in the future? After they leave (in about 6 months; short attention span), Iraqis will do whatever they want. Those willing to trade liberty for security deserve neither - Benjamin Franklin

brianwelsch

I wasn't trying to point to anyone in particular. :cool: The other factors in re-building will be the difference in infrastructure, etc. between the two countries. Iraq is more developed already (even with things being blown up presently), and so refactoring will be faster. BW "We get general information and specific information, but none of the specific information talks about time, place or methods or means..." - Tom Ridge - US Secretary of Homeland Security

Lost User

MS le Roux wrote: AFAIK the US helped Japan and Germany to rebuild after WWII, which is part of the reason they're so prosperous today. Let's also not forget that the Japanese and Germans took an active roll in their rebuilding process. They were actively involved and took control where they could. So far in Afghanistan, I've not seen the same spirit. Instead we get fighting among tribes and sects and such. :| Mike Mullikin :beer:

"I'm not calling you a liar but....I can't think of a way to finish that sentence." - Bart Simpson

Richard Stringer

MS le Roux wrote: If they helped Afghanistan to rebuild, perhaps they would become prosperous, instead of yet again being a breeding ground for terrorists and oppressors. You sanctimonial idiots amaze me. Rebuild WHAT. There was nothing in Afghanistan of any substance in the first place. Maybe you want us to build all this good stuff like power plants, power distribution systems,airports,water and sewage systems,highways, and the infrastructure needed to maintain it out of the goodness of our hearts and while we are doing it make sure that we award the contracts to Swiss, French and German firms to show we have no secret agenda of ' americanizing' the place. Well kiss my patooie. Richard In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. Orson Welles

Richard Stringer

Pavel Klocek wrote: Maybe, but also there was the was the strugle between USSR and USA, which were dividing Europe. Which part of Europe did the US get ? I looked but couldn't find it. Richard In Italy for thirty years under the Borgias they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo da Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland, they had brotherly love; they had five hundred years of democracy and peace and what did that produce? The cuckoo clock. Orson Welles