Apple/Ireland update: make that $14.5 billion worth of $henanigans
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
they can do whatever they want to do whenever we want to do it - because they sit getting fat in XXXX and hem and haw - and only think of the short term.
That could be applied to the USA as well in many fields of life and business
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
Nelek wrote:
That could be applied to the USA as well in many fields of life and business
That's so generic a pronouncement it actually passes no information. "Could Be Applied" - anything "could be applied" "Many" is an arbitrary amount "Many fields of life and business" - to make sure there's something somewhere it applies to. I'm not saying you're wrong - your statement is so written as to be impossible to be wrong.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Quote:
... I find that any trade agreement the US makes with Europe or Asia is a disaster for the US...
Also said as: - As soon US is not more free to do whatever it wants, it begins the pain?
Mario Vernari wrote:
Also said as: - As soon US is not more free to do whatever it wants, it begins the pain?
Here's the FIFY: Also said as: - since the US product is so good the EU cannot compete so they fine and take some of the profits anyway* * For example, fining Google because (1) they put paid advertisers ahead of others in the search - even though that has always been their business model and never a secret, and (2) Google has over 90% of the EU search traffic so they're a monopoly. Who's fault is (2)? It's substantially lower in the US (we use Yahoo, Bing, etc.) and the fact that no EU web-search product is worth the time to type in the address-bar is another problem the thieves in Brussels cannot stand for. The EU is taking a cue from an old USA proverb "The power to tax is the power to destroy". In our case, it's a seperation-of-church-and-state thing, but in your case, it's a clue on how to compete in business when you're not good enough to compete.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
Well, as near as I can tell, that's the problem and responsibility of those who put them there.
Except that people didn't vote for this. This kind of bullshit deals is done in back rooms by individuals whilst having some champagne, and people only find out about these deals years later.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
Oh - by the way - did the Irish complain about this? Ooooops (again)?
The Irish did not and still do not have a great position, they are afraid that without these deals the companies won't stay. And this is the problem. These mobster companies are hawking for countries that are desperate for jobs, and that are willing to sign away their lives for it. The EU is doing the right thing in stopping these maffia companies from exploiting the weak point in its armor.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
The line they drew is clear - they can do whatever they want to do whenever we want to do it - because they sit getting fat in Brussels and hem and haw - and only think of the short term.
Quite the opposite. The Irish government was doing whatever it wanted, and the EU is saying: no you can't do whatever you want, you can't give one company a big advantage compared to another company. It's not arbitrary, Apple should pay taxes that is in line that what other companies are paying.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
There's a big world out there looking desperately for investment. The EU's playing with fire - I hope the burn leaves a nice deep scar.
Not worried about that. Surely the world needs investment, and paying taxes is part of that. Apple makes great products (but not indispensible). It does not, and should not need unfair advantages to be able to compete. If they need money laundering deals with fantasy constructs like non-existing head quarters[^], let them exploit some other little country. If companies will leave Ireland, that might give some short term transitional issues, but the EU will help them out with this.
Wout
At this point your flailing for ways to excuse the inexcusable and ignoring the reality:
wout de zeeuw wrote:
Except that people didn't vote for this.
- which people? The French did vote to put in the lawmakers for Ireland? The Irish put them in and could vote them out any time they want to. That's how representative government works.
wout de zeeuw wrote:
The Irish did not and still do not have a great position, they are afraid that without these deals the companies won't stay
And so what's your point? With the deals they will - and otherwise they'd probably never have even seen their backside. That's the central point of the whole thing - they needed the development more than they needed the taxes. Their choice, and probably a damn good one.
wout de zeeuw wrote:
Quite the opposite. The Irish government was doing whatever it wanted, and the EU is saying: no you can't do whatever you want,
So Ireland is a vassal state of the 'suits' in Brussels - who'll be filling their fat faces with EU sponsored banquet dinners whilst discussing how to muck up whatever is left? To write laws retroactively is totally immoral - in the US we had the wit to put it in the original constitution. You guys in Europe? Apparently not so much. I guess you prefer the Erdogan model as applied to business. I can hear it all now blaring from the TV on "France 24": How dare you conduct such business in the EU. That will be against the law! You will be prosecuted and punished! for violating EU rules we will write especially for you. Also, we have decided that the new national language of Ireland will henceforth be Esperanto. Now, get us some more wine. The meeting isn't over.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Mario Vernari wrote:
Also said as: - As soon US is not more free to do whatever it wants, it begins the pain?
Here's the FIFY: Also said as: - since the US product is so good the EU cannot compete so they fine and take some of the profits anyway* * For example, fining Google because (1) they put paid advertisers ahead of others in the search - even though that has always been their business model and never a secret, and (2) Google has over 90% of the EU search traffic so they're a monopoly. Who's fault is (2)? It's substantially lower in the US (we use Yahoo, Bing, etc.) and the fact that no EU web-search product is worth the time to type in the address-bar is another problem the thieves in Brussels cannot stand for. The EU is taking a cue from an old USA proverb "The power to tax is the power to destroy". In our case, it's a seperation-of-church-and-state thing, but in your case, it's a clue on how to compete in business when you're not good enough to compete.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
It doesn't matter. Google goes away? K bro, some months of discomfort later and we'll have our version. No Farcebook? VK is already there to stay. No Apple? There are A LOT of EU makers that are struggling against the monopoly of now US-controlled giants, and there still are Sony, Asus, Acer, Huawei ans HTC of the big giants. Fools will still buy US products thus incerasing the volumes of business of Import/Export companies. Services will be EU tailored so it would be more than possible that US companies wouldn't be listed first in the new search engines. And our markets are already expanding Eastwards, slower than they could because the US keeps intervening. The moment when US companies will release their economic grip here will be the moment the US nation will lose the political one. I'm not at all anti US, which is a current trend, but I'm fairly sure we can survive without them. And without their sock puppet in EU too (aka UK).
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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It doesn't matter. Google goes away? K bro, some months of discomfort later and we'll have our version. No Farcebook? VK is already there to stay. No Apple? There are A LOT of EU makers that are struggling against the monopoly of now US-controlled giants, and there still are Sony, Asus, Acer, Huawei ans HTC of the big giants. Fools will still buy US products thus incerasing the volumes of business of Import/Export companies. Services will be EU tailored so it would be more than possible that US companies wouldn't be listed first in the new search engines. And our markets are already expanding Eastwards, slower than they could because the US keeps intervening. The moment when US companies will release their economic grip here will be the moment the US nation will lose the political one. I'm not at all anti US, which is a current trend, but I'm fairly sure we can survive without them. And without their sock puppet in EU too (aka UK).
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
If you could beat google you would have. Your statement is totally empty. All the problems of the EU are US caused, such as you not being able to expand eastward. Well - that's so typical of a failed system, find an outsider to blame. Maybe you should build a wall? When it comes to mercenary business practices, it was EU representatives that were in Iran before the Ink dried on the deal to let Iran do whatever it wants to do (the reality, after the built in caveats are included). You just couldn't wait to try and get your hands on that money. As usually, worry about the consequences later. Just bring a trophy back to the rabble that vote for them (just like they're doing know with Apple - how macho of them!). The biggest difference between the US and EU business practices is that you pretend your on the up-and-up, always taking the high road. Even for the immigrants allowed in, the undercurrent on the (European produced) news pointed out that there weren't enough young people and they were being looked at as a (cheap) labor force. Humanitarian? Not so much. Maybe it's time you started to accept that your shit stinks and stop pointing at our bathrooms as though it changes anything.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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Typical EU Bullshit: Ireland made the deal and (much as I hate apple) that deal was made by a sovereign nation. If there's a fine to pay it's Ireland's problem. Or - put it in terms of the way things are - in the EU, a business contract means what they want it to mean when they want it to mean it unless they change their minds. Were I Apple, I'd start closing all EU operations as soon as possible - let them find jobs working for someone else. Ditto for Micro$haft and anyone else who made a deal with a government and now realize it isn't worth the toilet paper it's written on.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Perhaps this thread should die now - and continue in the Soapbox instead. It's moved well beyond simple commentary into political mudslinging on all sides and there are fora for that here; let's go with the appropriate one.
This space for rent
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Perhaps this thread should die now - and continue in the Soapbox instead. It's moved well beyond simple commentary into political mudslinging on all sides and there are fora for that here; let's go with the appropriate one.
This space for rent
Totally agree. As everybody seems to know everything here, maybe letting it die would be best.
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At this point your flailing for ways to excuse the inexcusable and ignoring the reality:
wout de zeeuw wrote:
Except that people didn't vote for this.
- which people? The French did vote to put in the lawmakers for Ireland? The Irish put them in and could vote them out any time they want to. That's how representative government works.
wout de zeeuw wrote:
The Irish did not and still do not have a great position, they are afraid that without these deals the companies won't stay
And so what's your point? With the deals they will - and otherwise they'd probably never have even seen their backside. That's the central point of the whole thing - they needed the development more than they needed the taxes. Their choice, and probably a damn good one.
wout de zeeuw wrote:
Quite the opposite. The Irish government was doing whatever it wanted, and the EU is saying: no you can't do whatever you want,
So Ireland is a vassal state of the 'suits' in Brussels - who'll be filling their fat faces with EU sponsored banquet dinners whilst discussing how to muck up whatever is left? To write laws retroactively is totally immoral - in the US we had the wit to put it in the original constitution. You guys in Europe? Apparently not so much. I guess you prefer the Erdogan model as applied to business. I can hear it all now blaring from the TV on "France 24": How dare you conduct such business in the EU. That will be against the law! You will be prosecuted and punished! for violating EU rules we will write especially for you. Also, we have decided that the new national language of Ireland will henceforth be Esperanto. Now, get us some more wine. The meeting isn't over.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
- which people? The French did vote to put in the lawmakers for Ireland? The Irish put them in and could vote them out any time they want to. That's how representative government works.
I'm saying the tax rulings where never on any party program, therefore the (Irish) people did not vote for it. Did the US people vote for the wrongful invasion of Iraq for alleged weapons of mass destruction? Democracy is a flawed mechanism, and governments hardly do what people voted for.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
And so what's your point? With the deals they will - and otherwise they'd probably never have even seen their backside. That's the central point of the whole thing - they needed the development more than they needed the taxes. Their choice, and probably a damn good one.
The point was already pretty clear, but here it is again: nations need to compete on merit, not on how much money they're giving away to lure a fish.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
So Ireland is a vassal state of the 'suits' in Brussels - who'll be filling their fat faces with EU sponsored banquet dinners whilst discussing how to muck up whatever is left? To write laws retroactively is totally immoral - in the US we had the wit to put it in the original constitution. You guys in Europe? Apparently not so much. I guess you prefer the Erdogan model as applied to business.
You are making things up, laws are not written retroactively. It was already illegal to give tax benefits to a selection of companies. This is now being enforced. I don't care who's getting fat, but Apple does have to play by the EU rules. Besides, the 13.5% tax or so is still low, I wouldn't be screaming rip off about that.
Wout
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Nelek wrote:
That could be applied to the USA as well in many fields of life and business
That's so generic a pronouncement it actually passes no information. "Could Be Applied" - anything "could be applied" "Many" is an arbitrary amount "Many fields of life and business" - to make sure there's something somewhere it applies to. I'm not saying you're wrong - your statement is so written as to be impossible to be wrong.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
This is the insider news... not the soapbox :)
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Perhaps this thread should die now - and continue in the Soapbox instead. It's moved well beyond simple commentary into political mudslinging on all sides and there are fora for that here; let's go with the appropriate one.
This space for rent
:thumbsup::thumbsup: I said exactly the same before reading your message
M.D.V. ;) If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about? Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
- which people? The French did vote to put in the lawmakers for Ireland? The Irish put them in and could vote them out any time they want to. That's how representative government works.
I'm saying the tax rulings where never on any party program, therefore the (Irish) people did not vote for it. Did the US people vote for the wrongful invasion of Iraq for alleged weapons of mass destruction? Democracy is a flawed mechanism, and governments hardly do what people voted for.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
And so what's your point? With the deals they will - and otherwise they'd probably never have even seen their backside. That's the central point of the whole thing - they needed the development more than they needed the taxes. Their choice, and probably a damn good one.
The point was already pretty clear, but here it is again: nations need to compete on merit, not on how much money they're giving away to lure a fish.
W∴ Balboos wrote:
So Ireland is a vassal state of the 'suits' in Brussels - who'll be filling their fat faces with EU sponsored banquet dinners whilst discussing how to muck up whatever is left? To write laws retroactively is totally immoral - in the US we had the wit to put it in the original constitution. You guys in Europe? Apparently not so much. I guess you prefer the Erdogan model as applied to business.
You are making things up, laws are not written retroactively. It was already illegal to give tax benefits to a selection of companies. This is now being enforced. I don't care who's getting fat, but Apple does have to play by the EU rules. Besides, the 13.5% tax or so is still low, I wouldn't be screaming rip off about that.
Wout
wout de zeeuw wrote:
You are making things up, laws are not written retroactively. It was already illegal to give tax benefits to a selection of companies
""They don't have responsibility for taxes and they are opening a back door through state aid to influence tax policy in European countries when the European treaties say tax policy is a matter for sovereign governments," he added." http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-apple-taxavoidance-idUSKCN114211[^]
You may reply, but as of this post I'll comply with sensible "take it to the SoapBox requests
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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wout de zeeuw wrote:
You are making things up, laws are not written retroactively. It was already illegal to give tax benefits to a selection of companies
""They don't have responsibility for taxes and they are opening a back door through state aid to influence tax policy in European countries when the European treaties say tax policy is a matter for sovereign governments," he added." http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-apple-taxavoidance-idUSKCN114211[^]
You may reply, but as of this post I'll comply with sensible "take it to the SoapBox requests
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Thank you for agreeing that laws are not retroactively being changed. Your quote doesn't provide any argument, it's the view point of the Irish Finance Minister Michael Noonan who is desperate to keep the big coorperations in. The EU rightfully wants to level the playing field. How this all plays out exactly will be decided in court anyway, and most likely some compromise will be struck. But the party is definitely over for companies like Apple.
Wout
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Bloomberg: Updated August 30, 2016 10:48 AM GMT: [^]
«There is a spectrum, from "clearly desirable behaviour," to "possibly dodgy behavior that still makes some sense," to "clearly undesirable behavior." We try to make the latter into warnings or, better, errors. But stuff that is in the middle category you don’t want to restrict unless there is a clear way to work around it.» Eric Lippert, May 14, 2008
For those cheering this, beware that if you work for a multinational firm the EU is likely coming after your company next. What those companies can't pass onto customers, they'll make up for by slashing jobs. Of course, you could just vote the EU out-of-office. Oh, wait, you can't.
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Typical EU Bullshit: Ireland made the deal and (much as I hate apple) that deal was made by a sovereign nation. If there's a fine to pay it's Ireland's problem. Or - put it in terms of the way things are - in the EU, a business contract means what they want it to mean when they want it to mean it unless they change their minds. Were I Apple, I'd start closing all EU operations as soon as possible - let them find jobs working for someone else. Ditto for Micro$haft and anyone else who made a deal with a government and now realize it isn't worth the toilet paper it's written on.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
Actually, it was Ireland broke EU law by offering a one-off deal to Apple, that counts as State aid If you truly believe Apple had no part in this negotiation, you're naive to put it mildly. Why else do you think they channel all EU income through Ireland? Add to that the fact that Apple also keep their money out of the US to avoid US taxes, and a global picture starts to emerge. We really do need to tighten the screws on large multinationals undertaking enormous tax evasion (in this case) and avoidance. Because it's us consumers who have to cover for them in increased personal taxation.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
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Or perhaps a US CorpExit from EU due to the unstable business conditions and money-grabbing Brussels Louts.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
That would be nice. It would probably do more harm to those corporations than the EU.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.
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Nothing about what apple did or didn't pay is relevant: they had a contract with a sovereign nation and that nation should be held to honor it. As for EU infrastructure? Proper taxes? Not even the least bit relevant. At least not until they give Apple and Microsoft seats in the Brussels gathering of idiots. This comes down to a very simple and basic concept: do you trust in a legal agreement signed in the EU or not. Apparently, and repeatedly, we know the answer is "NOT".
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
"do you trust in a legal agreement signed in the EU or not." The issue was that it wasn't a legal agreement at all. Apple's lawyers should have worked that out. Due dilligence etc.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough." Alan Kay.